Winter Walking

Ken Catchpole said:

Having very little winter experience myself, at what stage do people decide that axe and/or
crampons will be necessary for a particular winter walk?

Usually having checked out the prevailing conditions before even leaving, which is generally
reasonably easy with weather forecasts, conditions reports, web-cams etc.

Quoted message said:

Presumably it's a combination of conditions and terrain, but bearing in mind the
weight/comfort/hassle/safety trade-off, what are acceptable 'tolerances?'

If you think you might need them you take them. A couple of times I've looked up the mountain, seen
nothing worth taking them for and subsequently felt Really Stupid when it turned out I was wrong.
The weight and comfort of a light axe and possibly crampons really isn't *that* much, especially on
a winter load which will have a fair bit more in any case. If there's been a big dump and not really
much base or freeze-thaw I'm happy without crampons (they'd just ball up and be more trouble than
they're worth), but if there's been a lot of freeze-thaw, or it's cold enough to freeze all the
burns, then crampons really should be along for the ride.

Hassle is limited to carrying them, there is a minor safety negative of carrying axes you don't use,
but just take a little care and don't walk right behind the one in front and that's most of the
problem sorted. The safety negative of being over a 100m runout of ice on which you *won't* stop is
quite a bit bigger!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Ken Catchpole wrote

Quoted message said:

Having very little winter experience myself, at what stage do people

decide

Quoted message said:

that axe and/or crampons will be necessary for a particular winter walk? Presumably it's a
combination of conditions and terrain, but bearing in

mind

Quoted message said:

the weight/comfort/hassle/safety trade-off, what are acceptable 'tolerances?'

The simple answer is to take them, or at least an ice-axe, with you if there is even the slightest
chance of encountering snow or ice. Just looking at the hill from below does not always suffice -
even if there is no obvious snow there can be ice or frozen ground. Early in the winter ground
water can freeze into a very tough form of ice among the grass - looks like just grass from a
distance. Even if you don't use them, don't feel self-concious about carrying them, I've seen
people getting into all sorts of daft places trying to avoid a tiny patch of ice or hard snow on
the path or easiest route. And don't be scared to take them off your rucksack even if there does
not seem to be any apparent danger. I was at Ben Lawers summit once and watched a couple trying to
decide whether or not to take their axes off their sacks for the descent. They obviously had no
problems on the ascent as the snow was good enough to form stable steps but just after leaving the
cairn one of them slipped on a thinly-covered slabby rock - it was a good job they had decided to
carry their axes in hand!

HTH Graham

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ken Catchpole said:

Having very little winter experience myself, at what stage do people

decide

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that axe and/or crampons will be necessary for a particular winter walk?

Usually having checked out the prevailing conditions before even leaving, which is generally
reasonably easy with weather forecasts, conditions reports, web-cams etc.

Quoted message said:

Presumably it's a combination of conditions and terrain, but bearing in

mind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the weight/comfort/hassle/safety trade-off, what are acceptable 'tolerances?'

If you think you might need them you take them. A couple of times I've looked up the mountain,
seen nothing worth taking them for and subsequently felt Really Stupid when it turned out I was
wrong. The weight and comfort of a light axe and possibly crampons really isn't *that* much,
especially on a winter load which will have a fair bit more in any case. If there's been a big
dump and not really much base or freeze-thaw I'm happy without crampons (they'd just ball up and
be more trouble than they're worth), but if there's been a lot of freeze-thaw, or it's cold enough
to freeze all the burns, then crampons really should be along for the ride.

Hassle is limited to carrying them, there is a minor safety negative of carrying axes you don't
use, but just take a little care and don't walk right behind the one in front and that's most of
the problem sorted. The safety negative of being over a 100m runout of ice on which you *won't*
stop is quite a bit bigger!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells
Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

It's worth noting that carrying axes and crampons is fine - as long as the skills required to use
them are known/practised.

Winter Skills training isn't that expensive. I've done two courses through Tiso/Stuart Johnston
Mountaineering; well worth the money.

Clive

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If there's been a big dump and not really much base or freeze-thaw I'm happy without crampons
(they'd just ball up and be more trouble than they're worth), but if there's been a lot of freeze-
thaw, or it's cold enough to freeze all the burns, then crampons really should be along for
the ride.

How long might it typically take before fresh snowfall becomes the kind of rock hard stuff that you
can't easily kick steps in and need crampons for? Can you generally assume it'll remain soft for a
couple of days or can it change overnight?

Quoted message said:

Winter Skills training isn't that expensive. I've done two courses through Tiso/Stuart Johnston
Mountaineering; well worth the money.

I did an excellent Winter Skills course at Plas-y-Brenin, pyb.co.ukpyb.co.ukOpen ↗ Capel Curig. Taught
all the usually; iceaxe arrest, step cutting, limited ice climbing, winter navigation techniques and
what to carry in winter. Good 2 day course.

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still brings
the same excitement'

"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If there's been a big dump and not really much base or freeze-thaw I'm happy without crampons
(they'd just ball up and be more trouble than they're worth), but if there's been a lot of freeze-
thaw, or it's cold enough to freeze all the burns, then crampons really should be along for
the ride.

How long might it typically take before fresh snowfall becomes the kind of rock hard stuff that
you can't easily kick steps in and need crampons

for?

Quoted message said:

Can you generally assume it'll remain soft for a couple of days or can it change overnight?

I don't think there is a quick answer - it can easily freeze solid overnight if it's cold enough.
Add to that the problem that you can have nice, soft, fresh snow up to a certain height then it's
solid ice above that with very little transition. Or solid ice beneath the nice, soft, fresh snow,
just to catch the unwary.

As a rule, I will always take crampons and ice axe if there's a significant amount of white stuff on
the hills. If I don't use them then it's no big loss, but even just a 50 metre patch of unavoidable
ice can knacker up a good day if you don't have a way of getting across it safely.

Colin

AndyP said:

How long might it typically take before fresh snowfall becomes the kind of rock hard stuff that
you can't easily kick steps in and need crampons for? Can you generally assume it'll remain soft
for a couple of days or can it change overnight?

It *can* change overnight: I've seen Lochnagar go from fluffy snow all over to sheet water ice all
over in a day (very heavy thaw which then refroze). Ice axe was pretty much useless, but without
crampons you wouldn't have been going anywhere (at least, not under control...). This sort of degree
is unusual, but it does happen and in these days of global warming it happens more than it used to.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

It's worth noting that carrying axes and crampons is fine - as long as the skills required to use
them are known/practised.

Winter Skills training isn't that expensive. I've done two courses through Tiso/Stuart Johnston
Mountaineering; well worth the money.

Whilst I'm sure courses etc are worthwhile, I learned to ice-axe brake from a book, and it worked
well enough in practice and for glissading. I've not had to try in anger admitedly - which just goes
to show how well I've learnt the "piolet panne" technique or whatever :-).

Basically there's no need to get overawed by having an axe - just use a bit your normal hillwalking
judgement and experience.

Hywel

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndyP said:

How long might it typically take before fresh snowfall becomes the kind

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rock hard stuff that you can't easily kick steps in and need crampons

for?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you generally assume it'll remain soft for a couple of days or can

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

change overnight?

It *can* change overnight: I've seen Lochnagar go from fluffy snow all over to sheet water ice all
over in a day (very heavy thaw which then refroze). Ice axe was pretty much useless, but without
crampons you wouldn't have been going anywhere (at least, not under control...). This sort of
degree is unusual, but it does happen and in these days of global warming it happens more than it
used to.

Thanks for the advice everyone.....more stuff for my Xmas list.

"Hywel & Ros" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Whilst I'm sure courses etc are worthwhile, I learned to ice-axe brake

from

Quoted message said:

a book, and it worked well enough in practice and for glissading. I've not had to try in anger
admitedly - which just goes to show how well I've

learnt

Quoted message said:

the "piolet panne" technique or whatever :-).

I'd have thought it was a fairly natural response to sliding down a slope anyway. That's what I'll
be having inscribed on my headstone if I become an accident statistic this Feb.