Crampon compatability

Blimey what have I done to upset people? Even the Scottish students get replied to. Is it a case
that no-one knows the answer or its a stupid question?

Shaun

In message <[email hidden]>, Mike Clark <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Chapman

url=''URL:/url said:

The message <[email hidden]> from "Shaun O'Connor"
<[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Blimey what have I done to upset people? Even the Scottish students get replied to.

You just weren't offensive enough to trouble any of the experts. :-)

Quoted message said:

Is it a case that no-one knows the answer or its a stupid question?

I don't know for sure as I don't know the boot in question. However as a general rule step-in
crampons are a no-no for boots that haven't been designed to take them while the old fashioned
type of crampon with a hinge between heel and fore-foot and attached by straps will go on just
about anything if they are the right size to fit the boot (Adny I think claimed to have used them
with trainers) but the more flexible the boots are (and the softer the uppers) the more painful
usage is likely to be. Most users (other than Adny) probably wouldn't tolerate cutting the blood
flow to their toes for prolonged periods in subzero conditions.

The other thing to be aware of with flexible boots is the ease in which crampons can become
detached even when you are convinced that there is no way they can become loose.

In my opinion crampons aren't essential for either Snowdon or The Lakes but that is because I am
an old fogey who started hill walking before they became the latest must have accessory. But they
undoubtedly make icy conditions easy or at least easier and cutting steps with an ice axe (an axe
is IMO essential in winter conditions) can be very hard work.

A lot of modern flexible crampons don't have a hinge in the middle as suggested above, but are
instead made of a flexible pressed steel plate that bends along its length.

Rigid and step-in crampons don't work well with flexible boots at all for reasons given above. But
flexible crampons might work, depending upon how stiff your soles are on your boots, and providing
it was for use for short periods on easier terrain.

Grivel's G10 crampons now come with a new Flex Bar that is designed to fit very flexible boots. They
are available with New Classic Bindings, which are plastic cradles that fit round the heel and over
the toe of the boot, linked by a strap. These cradles don't compress the boot uppers so it doesn't
matter if the uppers are soft.

Quoted message said:

You'd be best off taking the boots along to a competent outlet and seeking advice.

A good idea but don't accept advice that says you can't fit crampons to these boots. You can.

Shaun O'Connor said:

Blimey what have I done to upset people? Even the Scottish students get replied to. Is it a case
that no-one knows the answer or its a stupid question?

Sheesh!

I started to a reply but then thought, no, I won't send it 'cos somebody like Pete is bound to post
something better.

Anyway the short answer is that the boots are too flexible. You will knacker the crampon or it won't
stay on and the straps are likely cut off the circulation in your feet as the leather isn't stiff
enough to stop them cutting in.

You might be able to get away with an instep crampon but come across any kind of slope that you
would notice and you would have to walk crab fasion as there aren't any frontpoints. Note though
that even instep crampons need to be mighty tight on your boots and the straps might make their
presence felt if worn for extended periods, which they arent designed for really, they are intended
for crossing the odd patch of snow or ice. This might be all that you are likely to need in the ELD
or Wales as snow has become something of a rarity in recent years.

If you want to go out in serious snow coverage up serious slopes then new boots and 10 or 12
pointers is the way to go.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Shaun O'Connor" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Blimey what have I done to upset people? Even the Scottish students get replied to.

You just weren't offensive enough to trouble any of the experts. :-)

Quoted message said:

Is it a case that no-one knows the answer or its a stupid question?

I don't know for sure as I don't know the boot in question. However as a general rule step-in
crampons are a no-no for boots that haven't been designed to take them while the old fashioned type
of crampon with a hinge between heel and fore-foot and attached by straps will go on just about
anything if they are the right size to fit the boot (Adny I think claimed to have used them with
trainers) but the more flexible the boots are (and the softer the uppers) the more painful usage is
likely to be. Most users (other than Adny) probably wouldn't tolerate cutting the blood flow to
their toes for prolonged periods in subzero conditions.

The other thing to be aware of with flexible boots is the ease in which crampons can become detached
even when you are convinced that there is no way they can become loose.

In my opinion crampons aren't essential for either Snowdon or The Lakes but that is because I am an
old fogey who started hill walking before they became the latest must have accessory. But they
undoubtedly make icy conditions easy or at least easier and cutting steps with an ice axe (an axe is
IMO essential in winter conditions) can be very hard work.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Chapman

url=''URL:/url said:

The message <[email hidden]> from "Shaun O'Connor"
<[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Blimey what have I done to upset people? Even the Scottish students get replied to.

You just weren't offensive enough to trouble any of the experts. :-)

Quoted message said:

Is it a case that no-one knows the answer or its a stupid question?

I don't know for sure as I don't know the boot in question. However as a general rule step-in
crampons are a no-no for boots that haven't been designed to take them while the old fashioned
type of crampon with a hinge between heel and fore-foot and attached by straps will go on just
about anything if they are the right size to fit the boot (Adny I think claimed to have used them
with trainers) but the more flexible the boots are (and the softer the uppers) the more painful
usage is likely to be. Most users (other than Adny) probably wouldn't tolerate cutting the blood
flow to their toes for prolonged periods in subzero conditions.

The other thing to be aware of with flexible boots is the ease in which crampons can become
detached even when you are convinced that there is no way they can become loose.

In my opinion crampons aren't essential for either Snowdon or The Lakes but that is because I am
an old fogey who started hill walking before they became the latest must have accessory. But they
undoubtedly make icy conditions easy or at least easier and cutting steps with an ice axe (an axe
is IMO essential in winter conditions) can be very hard work.

A lot of modern flexible crampons don't have a hinge in the middle as suggested above, but are
instead made of a flexible pressed steel plate that bends along its length.

Rigid and step-in crampons don't work well with flexible boots at all for reasons given above. But
flexible crampons might work, depending upon how stiff your soles are on your boots, and providing
it was for use for short periods on easier terrain.

You'd be best off taking the boots along to a competent outlet and seeking advice.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Chris Townsend said:

Grivel's G10 crampons now come with a new Flex Bar that is designed to fit very flexible boots.
They are available with New Classic Bindings, which are plastic cradles that fit round the heel
and over the toe of the boot, linked by a strap. These cradles don't compress the boot uppers so
it doesn't matter if the uppers are soft.

Just bought a pair of the wide model for my Tele boots, which *have* to be fairly flexible underfoot
of course, and they're a nice piece of kit AFAICT. No more completely numb fingers strapping my old
Everests on thanks to the new bindings, and they resize to all my various wintery boots in seconds
rather than 10 minutes with tools. Hurrah!

From what I've seen people put crampons on over the years there's a good margin of safety (no bad
thing!) on the "what will go on what" designations and opinions.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Townsend

url=''URL:/url said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Mike Clark <[email hidden]> writes

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Grivel's G10 crampons now come with a new Flex Bar that is designed to fit very flexible boots.
They are available with New Classic Bindings, which are plastic cradles that fit round the heel
and over the toe of the boot, linked by a strap. These cradles don't compress the boot uppers so
it doesn't matter if the uppers are soft.

Quoted message said:

You'd be best off taking the boots along to a competent outlet and seeking advice.

A good idea but don't accept advice that says you can't fit crampons to these boots. You can.

I use Grivel G12 with new classic bindings on Scarpa Manta M4s. They're fine for most things. I used
them this summer on an easy glacier plod. It's not as comfortable an arrangement as a fully
stiffened sole, particularly if you try and front point for any period of time. I tended to use
American technique varying between my left and right feet every so often.

Mike Clark, <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Thanks everybody. Now I have plenty of good advice to ponder on. I appreciate it.

Shaun

In message <[email hidden]>, AndyP <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Grivel's G10 crampons now come with a new Flex Bar that is designed to fit very flexible boots.
They are available with New Classic Bindings, which are plastic cradles that fit round the heel
and over the toe of the boot, linked by a strap. These cradles don't compress the boot uppers so
it doesn't matter if the uppers are soft.

Quoted message said:

You'd be best off taking the boots along to a competent outlet and seeking advice.

A good idea but don't accept advice that says you can't fit crampons to these boots. You can.

The widely perceived need to buy myself some new stiffer boots as well as the actual crampons for
the limited amount of times I might go anywhere that warranted using them had put me off buying any
until yesterday. But after reading the above and the same advice on several American websites
regarding fitting to flexible boots I went and bought some of the G10 New Classics. The bloke in
the shop was very doubtful about the idea but having tried them out by walking up and down the
stairs a few times and jumping, hopping and running on the spot on a wooden board for a bit I'd
trust them on the snow slopes.

At least he let you buy them :-) I hope they work out fine.

Quoted message said:

P.S. Bloke in the shop said "Chris who?"

If they have heard of me I'm usually cursed for giving out what they think is bad advice. Every time
I write about crampons a shop contacts me to tell me I'm wrong.

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

If they have heard of me I'm usually cursed for giving out what they think is bad advice. Every
time I write about crampons a shop contacts me to tell me I'm wrong.

So are there old G10s and new G10s? Do I need to look for ones with the flex bar?

Yes, there are old and new G10s. The news ones come with the new flex bar and anti ball plates. I
have used the old ones for many years with fairly bendy boots without problems but the new ones
should be more secure.

Quoted message said:

Field & Trek seem to have two different prices here:
fieldandtrek.comproduct.aspOpen ↗
c=&simg=&pf_id=30199&mscssid=8TD8DSQDDBEA9GVRSQ0M8JAF0FX02WB8 at £60, and
fieldandtrek.comproduct.aspOpen ↗
scssid=8TD8DSQDDBEA9GVRSQ0M8JAF0FX02WB8 at £70.

Is this just an error or are they two different things?

They look exactly the same. The price Grivel gave me for the G10s was £70. Maybe F&T are selling off
the old models for £60 but both images look like the old model.

"Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Grivel's G10 crampons now come with a new Flex Bar that is designed to fit very flexible boots.
They are available with New Classic Bindings, which are plastic cradles that fit round the heel
and over the toe of the boot, linked by a strap. These cradles don't compress the boot uppers so
it doesn't matter if the uppers are soft.

Quoted message said:

You'd be best off taking the boots along to a competent outlet and seeking advice.

A good idea but don't accept advice that says you can't fit crampons to these boots. You can.

The widely perceived need to buy myself some new stiffer boots as well as the actual crampons for
the limited amount of times I might go anywhere that warranted using them had put me off buying any
until yesterday. But after reading the above and the same advice on several American websites
regarding fitting to flexible boots I went and bought some of the G10 New Classics. The bloke in the
shop was very doubtful about the idea but having tried them out by walking up and down the stairs a
few times and jumping, hopping and running on the spot on a wooden board for a bit I'd trust them on
the snow slopes.

P.S. Bloke in the shop said "Chris who?"

Any wrote

Quoted message said:

The widely perceived need to buy myself some new stiffer boots as well as the actual crampons for
the limited amount of times I might go anywhere

that

Quoted message said:

warranted using them had put me off buying any until yesterday. But after reading the above and
the same advice on several American websites

regarding

Quoted message said:

fitting to flexible boots I went and bought some of the G10 New Classics. The bloke in the shop
was very doubtful about the idea but having tried

them

Quoted message said:

out by walking up and down the stairs a few times and jumping, hopping and running on the spot on
a wooden board for a bit I'd trust them on the snow slopes.

P.S. Bloke in the shop said "Chris who?"

There's an account in Martin Moran's excellent Scotland's Winter Mountains of a chap strapping
crampons on to his trainers. As Moran admits, it's not a recommendation as such, but obviously
can be done. The chap who did it was pretty hardcore, so could probably climb zero gully in flip-
flops anyway.

Hywel

Chris Townsend said:

If they have heard of me I'm usually cursed for giving out what they think is bad advice. Every
time I write about crampons a shop contacts me to tell me I'm wrong.

So are there old G10s and new G10s? Do I need to look for ones with the flex bar? Field & Trek
seem to have two different prices here: fieldandtrek.comproduct.aspOpen ↗
smn=&smn_id=&src=&simg=&pf_id=30199&mscssid=8TD8DSQDDBEA9GVRSQ0M8JAF0FX02WB8 at £60, and w-w-Open ↗
ww.fieldandtrek.com/ft1/product.asp?currency=GBP&pf%5Fid=30350&mscssid=8TD8DSQDDBEA9GVRSQ0M8JAF0F-
X02WB8 at £70.

Is this just an error or are they two different things?

--
Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗