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GPS advice

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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16 January 2004
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Colin Blackburn
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  1. Hi,

    I'm considering using a GPS unit to map a city centre. As well as the road I want to map the various
    cut-throughs (snickets, ginnels, alleys,...) I could do most of this on foot using an existing OS or
    street map and then draw on the extra bits---though as would like to use the maps for public
    events/website publication I realise that there may be copyright issues. However, I wondered if
    there were any GPS units + PC software which were suited to this. One thought was marking various
    waypoints along paths but I wondered if there were any units which would record whole paths to the
    point where a print-out would form a skeleton map. Are there units which could effectively record a
    whole day's walk to a fine level of detail?

    Colin
    --

  2. Colin Blackburn said:

    One thought was marking various waypoints along paths but I wondered if there were any units which
    would record whole paths to the point where a print-out would form a skeleton map. Are there units
    which could effectively record a whole day's walk to a fine level of detail?

    Yes, they'll all record a track of your walk. You might want one with a high track capacity though
    if you want a fine level of detail. The latest Garmin units can do 10,000 track points, like the
    Geko 201 or 301, but I'd recommend the Garmin GPSMAP 76S, which is a map GPS, hence will probably
    have most of the streets in there anyway, or at least the main ones, so it will give you a skeleton
    to start with. garmin.comgpsmap76s

    Another good option if you want massive track capacity is the Lowrance iFinder, with 100,000 track
    points, also a mapping GPS.

    The biggest problem you'll get though is reception, which can be seriously affected by high
    buildings nearby. In particular you'll proably have a problem with those snickets, ginnels and
    alleys that you mention (I have no idea what the first two are). It's quite possible you'll lose the
    signal altogether in a narrow alleyway, so...

    I'd recommend marking a waypoint at every street (and alley) junction. Provided the alleys are
    straight you could link the waypoints together with a straight line later if you lose the signal in
    the alley itself. I've tried mapping out all the paths in a nearby forest, most of which are not
    marked on the map, and in some places I lose reception completely, so I find that marking waypoints
    is very helpful.

    Interestingly, due to the way trackpoints are placed, corners are often cut by the track. The GPS
    tends not to respond to a sudden change of direction quickly enough, so marking a waypoint at
    corners is a good thing to do. When you mark a waypoint you can average it for a short while, which
    gives a more accurate position. The waypoints thus make good reference points since the tracks alone
    can be a bit wobbly, and don't always go through the waypoints. After walking the same tracks a few
    times you'll probably find that they are slightly different each time.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003 - Updated
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  3. In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Colin Blackburn
    <[email hidden]> wrote.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm considering using a GPS unit to map a city centre. As well as the road I want to map the
    various cut-throughs (snickets, ginnels, alleys,...) I could do most of this on foot using an
    existing OS or street map and then draw on the extra bits---though as would like to use the maps
    for public events/website publication I realise that there may be copyright issues. However, I
    wondered if there were any GPS units + PC software which were suited to this. One thought was
    marking various waypoints along paths but I wondered if there were any units which would record
    whole paths to the point where a print-out would form a skeleton map. Are there units which could
    effectively record a whole day's walk to a fine level of detail?

    This is what GPSs are *for*. Seriously, what you'd need is a cheap hand-held GPS that will store a
    lot of track points (my Geko 301 will store 10,000, the cheaper Geko 201 [1] will do the same) and
    some appropriate software.

    Have a look at gpstm.comgpstm.com for some excellent free software that might do what you want.
    With this you can plot your tracks on scanned OS maps, for instance.

    The only problem is that GPSs need to be able to see a fair amount of sky and this might be a
    problem in narrow alleys with buildings on each side.

    Note [1]. Not the Geko 101, though, this can't connect to a PC.

    Regards, Nick.

    --
    Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[email hidden]

  4. Phil Cook <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Saunders said:

    The biggest problem you'll get though is reception, which can be seriously affected by high
    buildings nearby. In particular you'll proably have a problem with those snickets, ginnels and
    alleys that you mention (I have no idea what the first two are).

    Snicket and ginnel are northern dialect words that mean pretty much the same as alley.


    There is a slight difference between the two terms I believe ;it has to do with width. One is just a
    narrow passage walk way the other is wide enough so that in olden days one could get the lavender
    wagon (horse and cart) to come and empty the earth closet: so its wide enough for a car width in
    modern parlance.
    --
    david hill

  5. I have a Garmin Geko 301. I haven't had it long so I've not used it a great deal. It's working very
    well for me but it did lose the plot while walking around Edinburgh and started placing me over 100
    feet away from my true location. This is was in a big wide street so I wouldn't rate it's chances in
    a narrow alley.

    Maybe the Magellan Sportrak might be a better option with it's quad helix aerial?

    Cheers, Jiffy

  6. In message <[email hidden]>, Jiffy
    <[email hidden]> writes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Quoted message said:

    I have a Garmin Geko 301. I haven't had it long so I've not used it a great deal. It's working very
    well for me but it did lose the plot while walking around Edinburgh and started placing me over 100
    feet away from my true location.

    See carats above for the explanation of your difficulty. HTH

    --
    Michael Farthing cyclades Software House

  7. Paul Saunders said:

    The biggest problem you'll get though is reception, which can be seriously affected by high
    buildings nearby. In particular you'll proably have a problem with those snickets, ginnels and
    alleys that you mention (I have no idea what the first two are).

    Snicket and ginnel are northern dialect words that mean pretty much the same as alley.

    languagehat.com000916.php
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  8. Paul Saunders said:
    Colin Blackburn said:

    One thought was marking various waypoints along paths but I wondered if there were any units
    which would record whole paths to the point where a print-out would form a skeleton map. Are
    there units which could effectively record a whole day's walk to a fine level of detail?

    Yes, they'll all record a track of your walk. You might want one with a high track capacity though
    if you want a fine level of detail. The latest Garmin units can do 10,000 track points, like the
    Geko 201 or 301, but I'd recommend the Garmin GPSMAP 76S, which is a map GPS, hence will probably
    have most of the streets in there anyway, or at least the main ones, so it will give you a skeleton
    to start with. garmin.comgpsmap76s

    Ditto the Vista - I am using mine at the moment for exactly what you describe. 10,000 trackpoints,
    and a very flexible tracklog set-up (ie log points every n seconds, or every n feet, or auto (works
    out direction changes, speed of travel etc. I find this works very well.)

    Quoted message said:


    Another good option if you want massive track capacity is the Lowrance iFinder, with 100,000 track
    points, also a mapping GPS.

    The biggest problem you'll get though is reception, which can be seriously affected by high
    buildings nearby. In particular you'll proably have a problem with those snickets, ginnels and
    alleys that you mention (I have no idea what the first two are). It's quite possible you'll lose
    the signal altogether in a narrow alleyway, so...

    The Vista has a 'satellite' page, which shows visually how many satellites, how good a signal for
    each, and the estimated error. I keep this page displayed, and monitor it as I walk. Advantage of
    the Vista is that it likes to be flat, so it can be carried in the hand and watched easily. In
    severe conditions, you will need to hold it away from the body, and as high as possible. Gets you
    some funny looks !

    Quoted message said:


    I'd recommend marking a waypoint at every street (and alley) junction. Provided the alleys are
    straight you could link the waypoints together with a straight line later if you lose the signal in
    the alley itself. I've tried mapping out all the paths in a nearby forest, most of which are not
    marked on the map, and in some places I lose reception completely, so I find that marking waypoints
    is very helpful.

    Good idea.

    Quoted message said:


    Interestingly, due to the way trackpoints are placed, corners are often cut by the track. The GPS
    tends not to respond to a sudden change of direction quickly enough, so marking a waypoint at
    corners is a good thing to do. When you mark a waypoint you can average it for a short while, which
    gives a more accurate position. The waypoints thus make good reference points since the tracks
    alone can be a bit wobbly, and don't always go through the waypoints. After walking the same tracks
    a few times you'll probably find that they are slightly different each time.

    I find that the direction of travel makes a difference. walking NS gives one track, and SN a
    slightly different one. Consistent all the time, ie each walk has a slight offset. Quite useable
    with a few reference points.

    Generally my Vista is within a few feet (ie I can tell which side of the road I was walking on).

    Jim Hutton

  9. Jim Hutton said:

    The Vista has a 'satellite' page, which shows visually how many satellites, how good a signal for
    each, and the estimated error. I keep this page displayed, and monitor it as I walk. Advantage of
    the Vista is that it likes to be flat, so it can be carried in the hand and watched easily. In
    severe conditions, you will need to hold it away from the body, and as high as possible. Gets you
    some funny looks !

    You don't need to be looking at it to take advantage of height and lack of body shadow (your body,
    inc head, shuts out view of satellites). You can tie it to a stick, hold it up for a few minutes,
    and then take it down and look at it. Soldiers using GPS to navigate under dense tree canopy
    sometimes use special long collapsibe poles to get better fixes.

    If you don't want to get funny looks just stick it under your hat and admire the view for a
    few minutes!
    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  10. "Michael Farthing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In message <[email hidden]>, Jiffy
    <[email hidden]> writes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Quoted message said:

    I have a Garmin Geko 301. I haven't had it long so I've not used it a


    great

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    deal. It's working very well for me but it did lose the plot while


    walking

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    around Edinburgh and started placing me over 100 feet away from my true location.

    See carats above for the explanation of your difficulty. HTH

    :-)

  11. On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:37:19 +0000, david hill <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Phil Cook <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Paul Saunders said:

    The biggest problem you'll get though is reception, which can be seriously affected by high
    buildings nearby. In particular you'll proably have a problem with those snickets, ginnels and
    alleys that you mention (I have no idea what the first two are).

    Snicket and ginnel are northern dialect words that mean pretty much the same as alley.


    There is a slight difference between the two terms I believe ;it has to do with width. One is just
    a narrow passage walk way the other is wide enough so that in olden days one could get the
    lavender wagon (horse and cart) to come and empty the earth closet: so its wide enough for a car
    width in modern parlance.

    This certainly isn't a difference in my usage (as a child growing up in Yorkshire) though it might
    well have a historical basis. I was going to add snickleways to my list, having lived in York, but I
    think that might be a modern affectation.

    Thanks to all for the advice so far. I'm trying to keep the cost down and so I am looking at the
    Geko 201. Having looked at the difference between this unit at the 301 it seems identical except for
    the compass and barometric altimeter. Is this definitely the case? I'm not too interested in height
    data for the mapping and I have an alimeter watch for mountain running anyhow so the 201 looks a
    good bet in that case.

    Thanks for suggesting the mapping GPS units, Paul; I think I can live without the inbuilt maps. I
    may use a bike to initially build a map of the main streets and then go onto foot for finer detail
    so I'm not too bothered about starting from scratch.

    Colin
    --

  12. The message <[email hidden]>
    from david hill <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Snicket and ginnel are northern dialect words that mean pretty much the same as alley.


    There is a slight difference between the two terms I believe ;it has to do with width. One is just
    a narrow passage walk way the other is wide enough so that in olden days one could get the
    lavender wagon (horse and cart) to come and empty the earth closet: so its wide enough for a car
    width in modern parlance.

    My dictionary has it that a snicket is a passageway between walls or fences while a ginnel is a
    narrow passageway between 2 buildings.

    --
    Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
    killfiled on sight

  13. Colin Blackburn said:

    Thanks to all for the advice so far. I'm trying to keep the cost down and so I am looking at the
    Geko 201. Having looked at the difference between this unit at the 301 it seems identical except
    for the compass and barometric altimeter. Is this definitely the case? I'm not too interested in
    height data for the mapping and I have an alimeter watch for mountain running anyhow so the 201
    looks a good bet in that case.


    If you go to garmin.comoutdoor and select *product comparison* you can see how the
    specifications vary for the different Garmin models. Bear in mind that generally the battery run
    times are quoted for *Power save* mode, which is usually not appropriate where you don't have a good
    view of the sky!

  14. Colin Blackburn said:

    I'm not too interested in height data for the mapping

    All GPS units give you height. Those with an altimeter give you steadier readings.

    Quoted message said:

    and I have an alimeter watch for mountain running anyhow so the 201 looks a good bet in that case.

    But it's been pointed out that the built-in altimeter has other advantages. I think (not 100% sure)
    that in bad reception conditions the barometric altimeter reading will help the GPS to remain more
    accurate. If this is the case (maybe someone else could verify it?) it may well be to your advantage
    to get a model with a built in altimeter, because you certainly *will* get reception problems in
    amongst tall buildings.

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for suggesting the mapping GPS units, Paul; I think I can live without the inbuilt maps.

    Fair enough, but don't forget my suggestion of marking (and averaging) waypoints at junctions, that
    can be a great help in sorting out the mess of lines later, especially if reception is bad. In
    practice you may find that certain streets are a problem whilst others aren't, so more care will be
    required in marking the junctions.

    Paul
    --
    The October Project 2003 - Updated
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.html
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  15. Chris proteus1@gmxDOTnet said:

    If you go to garmin.comoutdoor and select *product comparison* you can see how the
    specifications vary for the different Garmin models.

    Yes, I've been there but the site has been a pig all day for me, very slow and unresponsive. Hence
    my comparisons are from third party sites, I imagine they are quoting garmin bumph.

    Quoted message said:

    Bear in mind that generally the battery run times are quoted for *Power save* mode, which is
    usually not appropriate where you don't have a good view of the sky!

    Thanks.

    Colin

  16. Paul Saunders said:

    All GPS units give you height. Those with an altimeter give you steadier readings.

    Yes, I know this but the steadiness of the altimeter isn't necessary for what I want to do.

    Quoted message said:

    But it's been pointed out that the built-in altimeter has other advantages. I think (not 100%
    sure) that in bad reception conditions the barometric altimeter reading will help the GPS to
    remain more accurate. If this is the case (maybe someone else could verify it?) it may well be to
    your advantage to get a model with a built in altimeter, because you certainly *will* get
    reception problems in amongst tall buildings.

    The disadvantage is around 100 pounds, that's significant enough for me. I am not sure how the
    barometric altitude will help the GPS unit remain more accurate in the XY plane. It also assumes, of
    course, that the altitude is reset as often as possible in certain weather conditions, if it isn't
    would this mean that the GPS unit was less accurate? I would certainly be interested to know if the
    this claim is true.

    Quoted message said:

    Fair enough, but don't forget my suggestion of marking (and averaging) waypoints at junctions,
    that can be a great help in sorting out the mess of lines later, especially if reception is bad.
    In practice you may find that certain streets are a problem whilst others aren't, so more care
    will be required in marking the junctions.

    I will certainly be taking this advice to heart.

    Colin
    --

  17. Paul Saunders said:

    Colin Blackburn wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm not too interested in height data for the mapping

    Quoted message said:

    All GPS units give you height. Those with an altimeter give you steadier readings.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and I have an alimeter watch for mountain running anyhow so the 201 looks a good bet in
    that case.

    Quoted message said:

    But it's been pointed out that the built-in altimeter has other advantages. I think (not 100% sure)
    that in bad reception conditions the barometric altimeter reading will help the GPS to remain more
    accurate. If this is the case (maybe someone else could verify it?) it may well be to your
    advantage to get a model with a built in altimeter, because you certainly *will* get reception
    problems in amongst tall buildings.

    It is theoretically possible to use the height data from an auto-calibrated altimeter to refine the
    horizontal GPS readings. H'ever, I suspect this is a research problem which is still some way from
    consumer products. AFAIK the Geko 301 does the same as the Vista, Summit, and 76S, which is that it
    has the useful option of autocalibrating the altimeter from what is in effect a long term filtered
    version of the difference between GPS height and altimeter height. This allows the altimeter to be
    progressively recalibrated on the run for changing climatic barometric pressure, while preserving a
    useful extra height accuracy over GPS altitude (which is never as good as horizontal altitude, and
    gets worse faster as reception conditions deteriorate).

    All of these Garmin units with altimeters will report the altimeter reading in waypoints and
    tracklogs instead of the GPS height, which means under the special conditions where the altimeter is
    likely to be inaccurate (such as just switched on after several hours off) you need to take
    precautions if this matters. GPS height is available via a few keystrokes on the displays.

    In sum you get better altitude, but the units cost more and are a bit more complicated to use if you
    want the best from them.

    Quoted message said:

    Fair enough, but don't forget my suggestion of marking (and averaging) waypoints at junctions, that
    can be a great help in sorting out the mess of lines later, especially if reception is bad. In
    practice you may find that certain streets are a problem whilst others aren't, so more care will be
    required in marking the junctions.

    A useful trick for getting an accurate waypoint in a spot of bad reception, when there are nearby
    spots of good reception, is to stand for a few minutes in the spot of good reception (or until all
    grey sat reception bars have gone black), and then walk to the spot of poor reception, still
    carrying some of the accuracy acquired with you. This can even be used to set good waypoints in
    places of no reception, if you walk into the area of no reception at a constant speed and in a
    straight line, because most units allow a period of grace before abandoning tracking when they
    assume you're just carrying with the same direction and speed. With the Garmin units I'm familiar
    with this period of dead reckoning grace is 30 seconds.

    This usually gives better results than averaging in a place of poor reception, since poor reception
    due to poor skyview usually has a biassed skyview and thus biassed error spread.
    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  18. Colin Blackburn said:

    Yes, I've been there but the site has been a pig all day for me, very slow and unresponsive. Hence
    my comparisons are from third party sites, I imagine they are quoting garmin bumph.


    I imagine you may already know about gpsinformation.netgpsinformation.net If not, it's worth a look. You will
    find some impartial reviews of the Gekos.

  19. Colin Blackburn said:

    On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:50:46 -0000, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    All GPS units give you height. Those with an altimeter give you steadier readings.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, I know this but the steadiness of the altimeter isn't necessary for what I want to do.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But it's been pointed out that the built-in altimeter has other advantages. I think (not 100%
    sure) that in bad reception conditions the barometric altimeter reading will help the GPS to
    remain more accurate. If this is the case (maybe someone else could verify it?) it may well be to
    your advantage to get a model with a built in altimeter, because you certainly *will* get
    reception problems in amongst tall buildings.

    Quoted message said:

    The disadvantage is around 100 pounds, that's significant enough for me. I am not sure how the
    barometric altitude will help the GPS unit remain more accurate in the XY plane.

    It could if the more accurate altitude was fed in as a datum to the raw position calculation, but
    there are some complex maths involved
    (e.g. Kalman filters) which AFAIK are still a research question. In addition, when only 3 sats are
    in view the GPS can no longer solve for the four variable of x,y,z and time (it needs to solve
    for time to a ridiculous precision of nanoseconds), so it assumes the height is the same as it
    was when it was last able to calculate it. If this assumption is wrong, then so is the
    position it supplies. Some units (AFAIK some Magellans) allow you to do this 2D altitude
    correction manually.

    --
    Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

  20. In article <[email hidden]>, Colin Blackburn

    url=''URL:/url said:

    On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:50:46 -0000, Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    But it's been pointed out that the built-in altimeter has other advantages. I think (not 100%
    sure) that in bad reception conditions the barometric altimeter reading will help the GPS to
    remain more accurate. If this is the case (maybe someone else could verify it?) it may well be
    to your advantage to get a model with a built in altimeter, because you certainly *will* get
    reception problems in amongst tall buildings.

    This is a theoretical possibility but I don't think the Garmin etrex and Geko altimeter models do
    this. I'm not sure if the GPSmap76S does.

    Quoted message said:


    The disadvantage is around 100 pounds, that's significant enough for me. I am not sure how the
    barometric altitude will help the GPS unit remain more accurate in the XY plane.

    If the altimeter supplies the Z data then this theoretically could be used to calculate a better
    XY solution.

    Quoted message said:

    It also assumes, of course, that the altitude is reset as often as possible in certain weather
    conditions, if it isn't would this mean that the GPS unit was less accurate? I would certainly be
    interested to know if the this claim is true.

    You can have the altimeter auto calibrate itself from the GPS data when it has good reception.

    The Garmin models also are able to output both the GPS altitude and the altimeter readings as
    separate parameters in the NMEA sentences.

    Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
    --
    o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
    _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

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