west highland way

eileen degnan <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Is there any good b&b's on the west highland way?

I expects there is...

But is this an Internet lesson or a grammar exercise?
--
Gordon

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Is there any good b&b's on the west highland way?

You started with a capital letter - well done. You then continued to ask about a plural subject,
having begun your question with the singular pronoun - oh dear. B&B - these are initials and should
therefore be in upper case. The apostrophe is *never* used for plurals - the correct form is
"B&Bs". The West Highland Way is the name of a long distance footpath, and as such counts as a
proper noun. Proper nouns are accorded initial capitals. You ended your question with a question
mark - well done.

All in all however, it was a poor effort. God help the Scottish education system if this is the best
they can produce.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Is there any good b&b's on the west highland way?

You started with a capital letter - well done. You then continued to ask about a plural subject,
having begun your question with the singular pronoun - oh dear. B&B - these are initials and should
therefore be in upper case. The apostrophe is *never* used for plurals - the correct form is
"B&Bs". The West Highland Way is the name of a long distance footpath, and as such counts as a
proper noun. Proper nouns are accorded initial capitals. You ended your question with a question
mark - well done.

While your comments are helpful I'd just say one thing:

The apostrophe is used in plurals just very very occasionally (rarely, even). As in "Mind your p's
and q's", or "there are four s's in Mississippi". (Imagine it without the apostrophes!)

It is permissible to use it in years, as in "I was born in the 40's" although the UK usage tends
to be 40s.

And given that the student used "b&b" in lower case it is then permissible to use the apostrophe -
although your solution is better.

Still, your rule is a good one for students whose English is as bad as the above.

Quoted message said:

All in all however, it was a poor effort. God help the Scottish education system if this is the
best they can produce.

Er, no, this isn't the best it can produce. Why would you think it is?

(and you are using a singular noun with a plural pronoun referring to it...)

Bernard Hill Selkirk, Scotland

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

One of these days I shall find the necessary 'tuits' to Google for the origin of sayings like
that one.
--

If you've ever done any type-setting, then you'll realise the letters are easily confused because
they are reversed images of each other. A piece of type (a bit of metal) for a "p" is easily
confused with a "q" when the letters are laterally reversed.

The letters comprising a fount of type are kept in compartmented boxes. It is when the typesetter
has to pick out a p or a q that he has to be careful to pick the right one. Putting the type back in
the box is equally fraught with danger :-)

So to recap - the type setter has to watch his "p's" and "q's"

For the record the Capital letters were kept in a different tray from the little letters. I call
them little letters for a reason. The type was kept in two trays standing before the typesetter. The
capital letters were kept in the Upper tray (Case) and the little letters in the Lower of the two
trays (Case) hence we have Upper case letters and Lower case letters.

Sorry if I'm preaching to the converted.

I've let my fingers do the walking so I'm consistent with the NG anyway.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Sandy <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

-In the early days of printing the type was set by hand in wooden frames. As the print was set by
hand, and backwards, it was easy to mix the two up.---Hannah Cowley (1779). Who's the Dupe? "You
must mind your P's and Q's with him, I can tell you.""

And not so long ago Sandy. The wooden frame is known as a "forme" and the letters are spaced, and
gaps between lines of type are created by inserting pieces of accurately cut hardwood known as
"furniture".

Anyone who has ever used an ADANA printing press will know the problems for the amateur.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

W. D. Grey <[email hidden]> sgrìobh,

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

One of these days I shall find the necessary 'tuits' to Google for the origin of sayings like
that one.
--

If you've ever done any type-setting, then you'll realise the letters are easily confused because
they are reversed images of each other. A piece of type (a bit of metal) for a "p" is easily
confused with a "q" when the letters are laterally reversed.

The letters comprising a fount of type are kept in compartmented boxes. It is when the typesetter
has to pick out a p or a q that he has to be careful to pick the right one. Putting the type back
in the box is equally fraught with danger :-)

So to recap - the type setter has to watch his "p's" and "q's"

I have seen the origin of the saying being proffered as the difference between Q Celtic and P
Celtic. It doesn't sound very probable does it?

Quoted message said:

For the record the Capital letters were kept in a different tray from the little letters. I call
them little letters for a reason. The type was kept in two trays standing before the typesetter.
The capital letters were kept in the Upper tray (Case) and the little letters in the Lower of the
two trays (Case) hence we have Upper case letters and Lower case letters.

Sorry if I'm preaching to the converted.

I've let my fingers do the walking so I'm consistent with the NG anyway.

--
Lachie.

Exodus 22:19. Quisquis concubuerit cum animali, morte moriatur.

In article <[email hidden]>, Lachie <noos@[127.0.0.1]> writes

Quoted message said:

I have seen the origin of the saying being proffered as the difference between Q Celtic and P
Celtic. It doesn't sound very probable does it?

Fascinating proposition !

--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Not as far as Welsh is concerned, no. We don't have a Q.

Quite so, but we have characters not included in the International Character Map. It's a case of
give and take :-)
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

Fran <[email hidden]> sgrìobh,

Quoted message said:

noos@[127.0.0.1] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So to recap - the type setter has to watch his "p's" and "q's"

I have seen the origin of the saying being proffered as the difference between Q Celtic and P
Celtic. It doesn't sound very probable does it?

Not as far as Welsh is concerned, no. We don't have a Q.

Funnily enough neither does Gaelic and it really shouldn't have p either as it is allegedly a
"borrowed Teutonic letter". I read the explanation somewhere I will try and google it.

There was a unifying language spoken by the Celts, called not surprisingly, old Celtic.
Philologists have shown the descendent of Celtic from the original Ur-language and from the Indo-
European language tradition. In fact, the form of old Celtic was the closest cousin to Italic, the
precursor of Latin.

The original wave of Celtic immigrants to the British Isles are called the and q-Celts spoke
Goidelic. It is not known exactly when this immigration occurred but it may be placed sometime in
the window of 2000 to 1200 BC. The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early
Celtic tongue and Italic. Some of the differences between Italic and Celtic included that lack of a
p in Celtic and an a in place of an the Italic o.

At a later date, a second wave of immigrants took to the British Isles, a wave of Celts referred to
as the p-Celts speaking Brythonic. Goidelic led to the formation of the three Gaelic languages
spoken in Ireland, Man and later Scotland. Brythonic gave rise to two British Isles languages, Welsh
and Cornish, as well as surviving on the Continent in the form of Breton, spoken in Brittany.

The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early Celtic tongue and the latter formed
p-Celtic. The differences between the two Celtic branches are simple in theoretical form. Take for
example the word ekvos in Indo-European, meaning horse. In q-Celtic this was rendered as equos while
in p-Celtic it became epos, the q sound being replaced with a p sound. Another example is the Latin
qui who. In q-Celtic this rendered as cia while in p-Celtic it rendered as pwy. It should also be
noted that there are still words common to the two Celtic subgroups.

As an aside, take note that when the Irish expansion into Pictish Britain occurred (see below),
several colonies were established in present day Wales. The local inhabitants called the Irish
arrivals gwyddel savages from which comes geídil and goidel and thus the Goidelic tongue.

ibiblio.orgcelts.htmlOpen ↗

The Goidelic languages are often referred to as "Q-Celtic" because they use a "Q" sound, usually
represented by a C or K, where the Brythonic or "P-Celtic" languages use P. For instance, Irish and
Scottish Gaelic for "head" is ceann, or sometimes kin. Brythonic languages, P-Celtic Welsh and
Cornish, use pen. There's a place on the coast of Cornwall called Pentire, and one on the coast of
Scotland called Kintyre. Both mean "head of the land." There are hundreds of similar P and C initial
words that indicate the relationship between P-Celtic and Q-Celtic languages. In Celtic linguistics,
it really pays to "mind your Ps and Qs."

digitalmedievalist.comlangfaq.htmlOpen ↗
--
Lachie.

Exodus 22:19. Quisquis concubuerit cum animali, morte moriatur.

In article <[email hidden]>, Lachie <noos@[127.0.0.1]> writes

Quoted message said:

There was a unifying language spoken by the Celts, called not surprisingly, old Celtic.
Philologists have shown the descendent of Celtic from the original Ur-language and from the Indo-
European language tradition. In fact, the form of old Celtic was the closest cousin to Italic, the
precursor of Latin.

Indeed, the Welsh language descendant from the Brythonic didn't exist before about 600 AD and
neither did Brythonic exist after 600 AD No exact cut off point obviously. The Brythonic developed
into Welsh from being a case sensitive language like Latin to the Language we know today.

Quoted message said:

As an aside, take note that when the Irish expansion into Pictish Britain occurred (see below),
several colonies were established in present day Wales. The local inhabitants called the Irish
arrivals gwyddel savages from which comes geídil and goidel and thus the Goidelic tongue.

A very interesting explanation (large amount snipped) but I have doubts about the word Gwyddel -
this is surely Welsh and could not have pre-existed the Goidelic invasions. We have no knowledge of
the languages of these isles before the Celtic invasions.

Incidentally the use of "p" or "q" you mentioned in equus or epos reminds me of the current word for
hippopotamus (water horse).

--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, marc
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

W. D. Grey said:

So to recap - the type setter has to watch his "p's" and "q's"

Errrr a compositor, a typesetter is a machine.

Thanks for the explanation.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

Phil Cook <[email hidden]> sgrìobh,

Quoted message said:

Lachie said:

Exodus 22:19. Quisquis concubuerit cum animali, morte moriatur.

Exodus 22:19 Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.

Does it make me sound like a Redneck or just plain weird?
--
Lachie Macquarie.

Agricola pulchris puellis parvunm taurum dat.

In article <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

A Nodnoler. From Nodnol. Have you ever seen Red Dwarf? The episode where everthing on earth was
backwards?

Like Llarregub in Under Milkwood you mean!
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In message <[email hidden]>, Fran <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...
> Fran <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>>>> Does it make me sound like a Redneck or just plain weird?
>>>>>
>>>> No weirder than the rest of us here :-)
>>>>
>>> Speak for yourself you live near the Rhonddha! :-)
>>>
>> Aye, but I'm a Nodnoler by birth.
>
> A what???
>
A Nodnoler. From Nodnol. Have you ever seen Red Dwarf? The episode where everthing on earth was
backwards?

Wouldn't that make you a Renodnol then ? 🙂

Pedant!

Tnadep
--
Martin Richardson
216/284 Munros (34/34 'Furths'😉
217/89 Donalds 390/1552 Marilyns 439/439 Nuttalls

Fran <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Is there any good b&b's on the west highland way?

You started with a capital letter - well done. You then continued to ask about a plural subject,
having begun your question with the singular pronoun - oh dear. B&B - these are initials and
should therefore be in upper case. The apostrophe is *never* used for plurals - the correct form
is "B&Bs". The West Highland Way is the name of a long distance footpath, and as such counts as a
proper noun. Proper nouns are accorded initial capitals. You ended your question with a question
mark - well done.

All in all however, it was a poor effort. God help the Scottish education system if this is the
best they can produce.

Are you a grammar teacher Fran? If not stop checking grammar mistakes of others.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

While your comments are helpful I'd just say one thing:

The apostrophe is used in plurals just very very occasionally (rarely, even).

Aye, but it doesn't make it right... :-) I know what you mean though. I get round the Ps and Qs bit
by using upper case letters. One of these days I shall find the necessary 'tuits' to Google for the
origin of sayings like that one.
--
Fran If you need my email address please ask.

"Grant Gordon" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Are you a grammar teacher Fran? If not stop checking grammar

mistakes of others.

Grant, do you have any interest in the West Highland Way at all? If the answer to this is no, you
should understand the sarcasm behind replies to the *west highland way* question epedemic. If, OTOH,
you really ARE interested in the WHW, welcome to the ng..........

Graham

Grant Gordon wrote on 24 Nov 2003 07:07:47 -0800....

[in response to Fran, who criticised the grammatical standards of the Scottish education system]

Quoted message said:

Are you a grammar teacher Fran? If not stop checking grammar mistakes of others.

I suspect that Fran's underlying complaint is at the appallingly low standards of the Scottish
education system when it comes to teaching students how to use newsgroups. The fact that many of the
Scottish students we see here also have little understanding of spelling and grammar merely adds to
the annoyance caused by that more fundamental problem.

If the students had been given a better idea of what newsgroups are all about, and if they were
coming here with the idea of making a contribution (rather than just passing an assessment set by
the SQA), then I'm sure their grammatical errors would be overlooked.

Most of the lecturers teaching this course seem to have no understanding of what really makes
newsgroups tick. All they seem to teach the students are the mechanics of how to post via Google
Groups. They appear to ignore completely the social aspects how to get the best out the interaction
with other users.

As a result of this lack of understanding, the lecturers presumably don't realise how badly thought
out the SQA's assessment materials are, and don't understand why their students get such a poor
reception.

By the way, when I say that the students would get a better response if they were "making a
contribution", merely asking an interesting question (one born out of the student's own interest or
experience) would be enough. But the questions suggested in the assessment materials ceased to be
interesting several years ago, after the first few students asked them. Despite that, we've seen
them over and over again, hundreds or even thousands of times.

--
Tim Jackson [email hidden] (Change '.invalid' to '.co.uk' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit patent.freeserve.co.ukpatent.freeserve.co.ukOpen ↗

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

While your comments are helpful I'd just say one thing:

The apostrophe is used in plurals just very very occasionally (rarely, even).

Aye, but it doesn't make it right... :-) I know what you mean though. I get round the Ps and Qs
bit by using upper case letters. One of these days I shall find the necessary 'tuits' to Google
for the origin of sayings like that one.

Try World Wide Words website by Michael Quinon. He has an email newsletter which/that (?) answers
such questions.

Katherine