GPS Advice

"Angus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thinking about a GPS but not sure what one to buy/ I would like to hook it up to my pc before and
after the walk to keep a log of my routes

Nearly all will do that. Avoid Garmin Geko 101 since it has no PC connection.

Quoted message said:

it also needs to be accurate (is there any difference or are they all the same).

Pretty much all the same. 12 channels means they'll use upto 12 satellites to locate your position.
The better the antennae on the gps the better a signal it will get under difficult conditions. So,
under tree cover, you might find the Magellan Sportrak with its quad-helix summat or other antennae
to work better than the Garmin Etrex's patch antennae.

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if your GPS has WAAS capability
it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Quoted message said:

I can spend around £200. Any suggestions?

Garmin Etrex - about £100, no WAAS, been around a while now Garmin Geko 201 - about £120, newer,
smaller, lighter, takes AAA batteries, WAAS Magellan Sportrak - about £150, WAAS, it floats, quite
chunky? Garmin Summit - about £170, same shape as Etrex, WAAS, barometric altimeter Garmin Geko 301
- about £190, as 201 plus barometric altimeter

That's just a few to get you started. The prices I've quoted are not the RRP but what you will pay
(including vat delivery, etc) from places like: www.gpsw.co.uk www.gps4less.co.uk www.redcar-
fish.co.uk

All these units quoted will do what you want them to do once you fork out extra on a PC cable.
They're all waterproof too.

Key factors that may well make up your mind are: Battery life and what batteries it takes Size
and weight

For rechargeable batteries, check out www.7dayshop.com They do also sell lithium AAs which are
excellent in very cold weather.

Please let us know what you decide on and why.

Cheers, Jiffy

PS: I went for a Garmin Geko 301 imported from America. With no customs duty (but maybe VAT to pay)
it works out a LOT cheaper. Main downside is poor battery life of 9 hours on paper (in real life
I don't know as it's ain't arrived yet). It takes AAA batteries but I've decided that's not a
downside for me as I've already got 750mah AAA NiMH batteries and they're so light I don't mind
carrying spares.

In article <[email hidden]>, Jiffy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPS has WAAS capability it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Hey, don't let my "chunky" SporTrak Pro hear you say that otherwise it may stop giving me WAAS
info. You're a year out - 2003 and my STP used the test signals prior to this - in fact I've
never *not* had WAAS (unless you count the 2 day glitch a few months ago) Mark

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗ "Europe's
EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe) is in the test phase now and is
transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan GPS receivers ignore this flag and use the signal anyway
(for what it is worth), but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not use the EGNOS
data as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

ESTB (EGNOS system test bed) is a reduced capability test version of EGNOS giving corrections in
Europe. The "do not use" flag has been switched off hence Garmin's can use it now. However tests
have shown that it currently gives little or no improvement in accuracy. With ESTB at the moment
there is no integrity monitoring and the "corrections" can actually reduce accuracy.

IIRC the ground segment (GPS receivers used to monitor inaccuracies so that corrections can be made)
is incomplete at the moment. That means the corrections are not as good as they are planned to be.

Quoted message said:

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

Indeed the schedule can be seen at:

esamultimedia.esa.intschedule.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be Waasting your time!

That is so bad I decided to leave it in!

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Hi Angus Just a few thoughts having recently upgraded from a Summit to a Vista. Try to see a working
example before buying. The Higher resolution Vista, Venture & Legend screens have quite small text
and can be difficult to read if your eyesight is not excellent. In my view, the larger the screen
the better. Currently in the south UK, WAAS is not much use, especially under tree cover, but may
improve next year when fully up and running. The battery drain on the Vista is high compared with
the Summit. Use 2200mh rechargeables if possible and carry spares. The smaller AAA cells on the
Gecko range have been known to give problems. For hiking use, the track scale range is greater on
the Vista (down to 20 feet units as against 200 foot units). In built mapping can be useful for
matching roads to footpaths etc. (The main reason for my change). Remember to think about what
software you will be using either now or later. (Can be expensive). Good Luck

In article <[email hidden]>, Jim Hutton <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

www.amforbes.com - professional photography said:

Ok thanks for the info - loads to think about and a few sites to visit.

You might add the newsgroups alt.satellite.gps and sci.geo.satellite-nav. There are some excellent
FAQ sites which you will find via these groups.

Quoted message said:

Is the idea to leave the thing switched on when I am walking and then upload it to my pc.

Do they come with maps built in or do I need to buy that later?

Depends on the make. Magellan only allow Magellan maps, Garmin have both Garmin maps and the
possibility (if you learn how, and its a bit complicated) of creating your own maps. All the
commercially available maps for the UK show only roads - footpaths & most tracks are missing, as
are any other detail useful to walkers.

I am busy creating my own footpath maps for my Garmin Vista. Cotswold Way, parts of Lakes & Brecons
so far. Quite laborious, and made no easier by the Ordnance Survey's attitude to copyright.

However, even without detailed maps I prefer to have a 'mapping' gps, which will at least show you
your track visually in relation to waypoints etc.

Most GPS receivers that do not have uploadable maps / base maps still have a map screen that
displays waypoints, routes and tracks. The only recent receivers I recall that didn't were the
Magellan 300 (Pioneer) & the 310.

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, the discussions about WAAS are a bit irrelevant. Almost all GPS have it, but it isn't
any use in the UK at the moment - in fact it makes my Vista much slower to lock, and REDUCES
accuracy.

Quoted message said:

What about these american ones that have the 2 way radio built in - are they any good?

Sounds unlikely - 2-way radio is so short range, especially in hills.

The Garmin Rino models are FRS units (the US equivalent of the Euro PMR) which have a very
limited range and are not legal for use in the UK as far as I know because they do not adhere to
the PMR standard.

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Mark Cavendish
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗
"Europe's EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe) is in the test phase now
and is transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan GPS receivers ignore this flag and use the
signal anyway (for what it is worth), but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not
use the EGNOS data as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be Waasting your time!

Trust me to get it wrong - it was the end of the initial test phase that I *thought* was the end of
testing! Put it down to EGONOrance!

Having said that I've never switched WAAS off and since I'm getting <3m accuracy

How have you determined the accuracy? The estimated accuracy the receiver reports cannot be
relied upon.

Quoted message said:

have found no need to - and that includes the precursor to Artemis when we were due poorer
coverage. Hike most w/ends, under tree canopy and in steep sided valleys and I've only lost lock
1/2 dozen times (50% in car when travelling in north direction where sat coverage is not so good).

There are plenty of satellites visible to the north of the UK over the pole. They are lower in the
sky than other directions but they are none the less useful as long as they are not obscured.

GPS mission planning software can show the sky plots and visible satellites from any location given
a current almanac. Trimble have a free mission planner available here:

trimble.complanningsoftware.htmlOpen ↗

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Jiffy
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Jiffy

url=''URL:/url said:

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:53:09 GMT, "Jiffy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗
"Europe's EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in

Europe) is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the test phase now and is transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan

GPS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

receivers ignore this flag and use the signal anyway (for what it is

worth),

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not use the EGNOS

data

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be

Waasting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your time!

Cheers, Jiffy

Your wrong. The latest software updates for Garmin do allow the EGNOS signals to be used

I'm not wrong. The website quoted is wrong!

Cheers, Jiffy

And in fact the SBAS (WAAS, EGNOS etc.) capable Garmin receivers started accepting the ESTB signals
as soon as the "do not use" flag was turned off. It did not require a firmware update.

Joe's page is not really wrong because it states that the SBAS capable Garmins will not use the ESTB
signal "while the 'do not use' flag is set". However it also says the flag is currently set when it
has been off since April...

--

dscs.demon.co.ukdscs.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Mike Clark <[email hidden]> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

If you turn on WAAS on a Geko 201/301 you will see that it sometimes uses the EGNOS information,
and sometimes it does not, depending upon your position within Europe, and the availability of the
test signals currently being transmitted.

I've not managed to get anything from the EGNOS test bed for the last couple of weeks. This is using
a Geko 301. Are other Garmin users finding the same thing? (Unspoken question; or is it just me?)

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[email hidden]

In a recent message <[email hidden]>, Mike Clark <[email hidden]> wrote.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've not managed to get anything from the EGNOS test bed for the last couple of weeks. This is
using a Geko 301. Are other Garmin users finding the same thing? (Unspoken question; or is it
just me?)

Quoted message said:

It was working for me using a Geko 301 yesterday 9/11/2003 in Cambridgeshire.

Apparently, EGNOS has been working recently in 'mode 2 (fast corrections and ionosphere corrections
without Ranging) with contents of a type 2 message in each type 0 message'. I'm not sure I
understand what this means <g> but I'd taken it to indicate that the signal couldn't be used in any
meaningful way by the Geko. But if you were getting DIFF=3m or something similar in East Anglia
yesterday, them my Geko is definitely on the blink.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England <[email hidden]

Jiffy said:

Magellan Sportrak - about £150, WAAS, it floats, quite chunky?

If you're interested in this one get the SporTrak Map model instead. It only costs a little more and
comes with a free PC lead, which the basic model doesn't. The price of the lead is about the same as
the price difference, plus you get map capability as well.

Quoted message said:

Garmin Summit - about £170, same shape as Etrex, WAAS, barometric

The Summit doesn't have WAAS, it's a bit outdated now.

Quoted message said:

altimeter Garmin Geko 301 - about £190, as 201 plus barometric altimeter

The Geko 301 is effectively the "new" Summit.

Paul
--
The October Project 2003
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukoctober.htmlOpen ↗
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Jiffy said:

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if your GPS has WAAS capability
it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Hey, don't let my "chunky" SporTrak Pro hear you say that otherwise it may stop giving me WAAS info.
You're a year out - 2003 and my STP used the test signals prior to this - in fact I've never *not*
had WAAS (unless you count the 2 day glitch a few months ago) Mark

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:18:24 +0000 (UTC), "Joe" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi Angus Just a few thoughts having recently upgraded from a Summit to a Vista. Try to see a
working example before buying. The Higher resolution Vista, Venture & Legend screens have quite
small text and can be difficult to read if your eyesight is not excellent. In my view, the larger
the screen the better.

Agree entirely - screen is very crisp and clear, but very small. I had to upgrade my specs to multi-
focal to see it. But its a trade-off, big screen = big unit. The Vista is shirt-pocket size and very
light - fits in the hand a treat. NB it works best when flat or nearly, which is fine for reading it
(like a book), but not so good for carrying it in a pocket. I carry mine either in my hand, or
tucked into an elastic loop on the rucksack strap.

Quoted message said:

Currently in the south UK, WAAS is not much use, especially under tree cover, but may improve next
year when fully up and running. The battery drain on the Vista is high compared with the Summit.
Use 2200mh rechargeables if possible and carry spares. The smaller AAA cells on the Gecko range
have been known to give problems.

I get 8 - 10 hours of continuous use on 1800maH NiMH rechargeables.

Quoted message said:

For hiking use, the track scale range is greater on the Vista (down to 20 feet units as against 200
foot units).

Didn't know that - but certainly the Vista tracklogging is both accurate and flexible - you can set
parameters for logging points, or use an 'auto' setting, which uses a quite sophisticated algorithm
to decide when to collect points, which maximises accuracy and storage. 10,000 track points storage,
which should be enough for a week's walking, plus up to 10 saved track memory.

Quoted message said:

In built mapping can be useful for matching roads to footpaths etc. (The main reason for my
change). Remember to think about what software you will be using either now or later. (Can be
expensive). Good Luck

Agree with both the above points.

Jim Hutton

In article <[email hidden]>, Jiffy "]<URL:[email hidden]>
wrote: [snip]

Quoted message said:

PS: I went for a Garmin Geko 301 imported from America. With no customs duty (but maybe VAT to
pay) it works out a LOT cheaper. Main downside is poor battery life of 9 hours on paper (in
real life I don't know as it's ain't arrived yet). It takes AAA batteries but I've decided
that's not a downside for me as I've already got 750mah AAA NiMH batteries and they're so
light I don't mind carrying spares.

The Geko 301 is now my main unit and I'm very pleased with it. Before that I used a Summit.
Regarding the spec and software differences it's hard to justify the Summit now without a dramatic
drop in price compared to the Geko 301 or some major improvements to the software of the Summit.

Battery life of the Geko isn't proving to be too bad in practice. I've been using 750mAh AAA cells
and I've been regularly getting over 6 hours and often over 8 hours of use, even with WAAS enabled.
I do usually have the compass disabled which helps. A great software bonus of the Geko over the
Summit is that you can toggle the compass on and off with a long press of the "menu page" button. ON
the summit you can turn the compass on this way but to turn it off again you need to navigate
several menus!

The actual case design of the Geko 301 is better than the 201. It is too easy to accidentally
activate the "on" button of the 201 when carrying it in a pocket or rucksack.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Magellan Sportrak - about £150, WAAS, it floats, quite chunky?

If you're interested in this one get the SporTrak Map model instead. It only costs a little more
and comes with a free PC lead, which the basic model doesn't. The price of the lead is about the
same as the price difference, plus you get map capability as well.

At about £185 definately a better buy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Garmin Summit - about £170, same shape as Etrex, WAAS, barometric

The Summit doesn't have WAAS, it's a bit outdated now.

My mistake. Thanks for correcting that.

Cheers, Jiffy

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPS has WAAS capability it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Hey, don't let my "chunky" SporTrak Pro hear you say that otherwise it may stop giving me WAAS
info. You're a year out - 2003 and my STP used the test signals prior to this - in fact I've never
*not* had WAAS (unless you count the 2 day glitch a few months ago) Mark

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗ "Europe's
EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe) is in the test phase now and is
transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan GPS receivers ignore this flag and use the signal anyway
(for what it is worth), but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not use the EGNOS data
as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be Waasting your time!

Cheers, Jiffy

In article <[email hidden]>, Jim Hutton
"]<URL:[email hidden]> wrote: [snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The battery drain on the Vista is high compared with the Summit. Use 2200mh rechargeables if
possible and carry spares. The smaller AAA cells on the Gecko range have been known to give
problems.

I get 8 - 10 hours of continuous use on 1800maH NiMH rechargeables.

Regarding the battery life of AAAs used in Geko models. Some of us have reported problems,
particularly with the Geko 201. It seems that battery life of NiMh cells is very short if you set
the Unit to believe you are using NiMh cells! However if you leave it set to Alkaline then NiMh
cells give a couple of hours of extra use!

I've emailed a bug report to Garmin about this but so far there hasn't been any confirmation or fix
announced.

The Geko 301 I have doesn't seem to exhibit the same problem and works fine on the NiMh setting.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Ok thanks for the info - loads to think about and a few sites to visit.

Is the idea to leave the thing switched on when I am walking and then upload it to my pc.

Do they come with maps built in or do I need to buy that later?

What about these american ones that have the 2 way radio built in - are they any good?

Cheers

Angus

--
www.amforbes.com
Landscape and Travel Photography
"Jiffy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPS has WAAS capability it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Hey, don't let my "chunky" SporTrak Pro hear you say that otherwise it
may stop giving me WAAS info. You're a year out - 2003 and my STP used
the test signals prior to this - in fact I've never *not* had WAAS
(unless you count the 2 day glitch a few months ago)
Mark

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from
gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗
"Europe's EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe)

is

Quoted message said:

in the test phase now and is transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan

GPS

Quoted message said:

receivers ignore this flag and use the signal anyway (for what it is

worth),

Quoted message said:

but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not use the EGNOS

data

Quoted message said:

as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be

Waasting

Quoted message said:

your time!

Cheers, Jiffy

I can't make up my mind about this one either. My "lighweight" half says Geko 301, morepractical
half says Sportrak Map. At least it can also be used in-car (which the Geko is too neat for) and
uses AA batteries which I already carry for my DigiCam (and it has better battery life anyway).

Jiffy said:

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗ "Europe's
EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe) is in the test phase now and is
transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan GPS receivers ignore this flag and use the signal anyway
(for what it is worth), but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not use the EGNOS
data as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be Waasting your time!

Trust me to get it wrong - it was the end of the initial test phase that I *thought* was the end of
testing! Put it down to EGONOrance!

Having said that I've never switched WAAS off and since I'm getting <3m accuracy have found no need
to - and that includes the precursor to Artemis when we were due poorer coverage. Hike most w/ends,
under tree canopy and in steep sided valleys and I've only lost lock 1/2 dozen times (50% in car
when travelling in north direction where sat coverage is not so good). Mark

In article <[email hidden]>, Jiffy

url=''URL:/url said:

"Mark Cavendish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jiffy said:

Also, from April 1st 2004, Egnos will be operative. This means that if

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GPS has WAAS capability it can be accurate to about 3 metres.

Hey, don't let my "chunky" SporTrak Pro hear you say that otherwise it may stop giving me WAAS
info. You're a year out - 2003 and my STP used the test signals prior to this - in fact I've
never *not* had WAAS (unless you count the 2 day glitch a few months ago) Mark

Err, we're still in the test phase. Note this from gpsinformation.netwaasgps.htmlOpen ↗
"Europe's EGNOS system (compatible with WAAS but for operation in Europe) is in the test phase now
and is transmitting a "do not use" flag. Magellan GPS receivers ignore this flag and use the
signal anyway (for what it is worth), but Garmin receivers honor the flag's intent and will not
use the EGNOS data as long as the "do not use" flag is set."

The April 2004 date for official launch is widely stated. For example:
pocketgps.co.ukegnos.phpOpen ↗

So be careful with the current Egnos signals otherwise you could be Waasting your time!

Cheers, Jiffy

Your wrong. The latest software updates for Garmin do allow the EGNOS signals to be used

Mike Clark, <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"