General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Hamilton's rule: A Kid In A Sweetshop

Started by John Edser · · Last activity · 41 posts · 1,297 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
5 January 2004
Last activity
27 January 2004
Original author
John Edser
Posts
41
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,297
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 41
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Quoted message said:

    BOH:- I think you might end up there anyway! I'll just point out that fitness is defined to be
    specific to the environment, so if the environment changes, so might fitness.

    JM:- My "ploy" to avoid being dragged into this issue is to claim that there is a distinction to be
    made between "fitness" and "reproductive success", and that fitness is the cause of reproductive
    success. I then shut my mind to those who point out that there is no other way to measure or
    estimate fitness than by measuring reproductive success. This ploy may be epistemologically naive,
    but it works for me!

    JE:- Fitness is what is left after reproduction, environment and everything else has done all it can
    do, i.e. it can only be the total number of fertile forms a parent reproduces! Once a fitness unit
    becomes fertile it becomes an _independent_ unit in its own right. Thus the fitness unit cycle is
    not endless as Neo Darwinian (but not Darwinians) insist that it is. Mostly, Neo Darwinian's are
    mathematicians and not biologists.

    One parent can be any unit/units you define it to be, i.e. a gene, a cell, an individual, a group or
    a meta group. Once you define your unit of selection, which is the easy bit, you then have to be
    able to test it against nature. This is the very _hard_ bit that everybody is trying to evade or
    protect themselves or others such as Hamilton, from. You can't choose all the sweets (units of
    selection) in the sweetshop, 5 year olds learn this quite early. However, it appears most Neo
    Darwinians never reached that age ;-)

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  2. "John Edser" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    JM:- My "ploy" to avoid being dragged into this issue is to claim that there is a distinction to
    be made between "fitness" and "reproductive success", and that fitness is the cause of
    reproductive success. I then shut my mind to those who point out that there is no other way to
    measure or estimate fitness than by measuring reproductive success. This ploy may be
    epistemologically naive, but it works for me!

    JE:- Fitness is what is left after reproduction, environment and everything else has done all it
    can do, i.e. it can only be the total number of fertile forms a parent reproduces! Once a fitness
    unit becomes fertile it becomes an _independent_ unit in its own right. Thus the fitness unit
    cycle is not endless as Neo Darwinian (but not Darwinians) insist that it is. Mostly, Neo
    Darwinian's are mathematicians and not biologists.

    One parent can be any unit/units you define it to be, i.e. a gene, a cell, an individual, a group
    or a meta group. Once you define your unit of selection, which is the easy bit, you then have to
    be able to test it against nature. This is the very _hard_ bit that everybody is trying to evade
    or protect themselves or others such as Hamilton, from. You can't choose all the sweets (units of
    selection) in the sweetshop, 5 year olds learn this quite early. However, it appears most Neo
    Darwinians never reached that age ;-)

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    John,

    This seems to be as good a place as any to ask this... You frequently invoke Popper. Has old Sir
    Karl written anything about how to formulate natural selection so as to make it epistemologically
    respectable, or are you giving us your own Popper-inspired ideas here?

    If Popper has written on these issues, could you provide references?

    Thx.

    Jim

  3. Quoted message said:

    JM:- My "ploy" to avoid being dragged into this issue is to claim that there is a distinction to
    be made between "fitness" and "reproductive success", and that fitness is the cause of
    reproductive success. I then shut my mind to those who point out that there is no other way to
    measure or estimate fitness than by measuring reproductive success. This ploy may be
    epistemologically naive, but it works for me!

    Quoted message said:

    JE:- Fitness is what is left after reproduction, environment and everything else has done all it
    can do, i.e. it can only be the total number of fertile forms a parent reproduces! Once a fitness
    unit becomes fertile it becomes an _independent_ unit in its own right. Thus the fitness unit
    cycle is not endless as Neo Darwinian (but not Darwinians) insist that it is. Mostly, Neo
    Darwinian's are mathematicians and not biologists. One parent can be any unit/units you define it
    to be, i.e. a gene, a cell, an individual, a group or a meta group. Once you define your unit of
    selection, which is the easy bit, you then have to be able to test it against nature. This is the
    very _hard_ bit that everybody is trying to evade or protect themselves or others such as
    Hamilton, from. You can't choose all the sweets (units of selection) in the sweetshop, 5 year olds
    learn this quite early. However, it appears most Neo Darwinians never reached that age ;-)

    JM:- John, This seems to be as good a place as any to ask this... You frequently invoke Popper. Has
    old Sir Karl written anything about how to formulate natural selection so as to make it
    epistemologically respectable, or are you giving us your own Popper-inspired ideas here? If Popper
    has written on these issues, could you provide references?

    JE:- Popper's writings on evolutionary theory were brief. I do not have any references to hand as I
    write this post. Originally he found Darwinian evolution to be a tautology (a circular argument).
    However this conclusion was based on Herbert Spencer's misrepresentation of natural selection. Ask
    anybody, even today, what they think Darwinism is and they will reply with Herbert Spencer's
    "survival of the fittest". The cause of "survival of the fittest" was "only the fittest survive".
    Thus A causes B, only because B causes A!

    Here: A-->B (thesis) B-->A (antithesis)

    are combined within the one causative view.

    Such a view is just an absolute contradiction as a theory of cause and affect. In essence a
    tautology is only a valid statement of equality such as: Fitness = the total number of reproductions
    of one parent. Here:

    A=B

    where:

    A= Fitness. B= Total reproductions of one parent.

    You can validly define A as B and vice versa. Just a lone definition is _not_ a testable proposition
    it is just an assumption. The only valid use a tautology can have to science is to allow definitions
    of things within a testable view. Such views must logically link _many_ different defined things
    together in a _non_ reversible logical order within each view e.g.:

    A-->B OR

    B-->A

    These are known as a processes. These two processes are 100% contradictory so that if one is true
    the other cannot be. Thus if one is verified then the other is refuted. Obviously, if both are
    incorporated within the same causative proposition then such a view is a meaningless causation
    simply because it has become tautology. If both can be verified then the proposition was invalid.

    Note that:

    A-->B-->C

    AND

    A-->C-->B

    have something in common re: the position of A. Thus these two views are not totally contradictory.

    Note however:

    C-->B-->A

    absolutely contradicts:

    A-->B-->C

    We can only explore such causative processes via any (deductive) patterns that they can make because
    _all_ the information we receive is perceptual. Thus the process is a "concept" with a pattern is
    just a "percept". The building of these conceptual processes requires an imagination (induction). An
    induction is just a guess at causation. Not all imagined causative processes are equal. This being
    the case, they cannot all be equal truths of nature. Thus science only concerns itself with proposed
    processes that are testable so it can sort them out. This sorting requires points of verification
    and refutation to be provided. These are respectively, patterns that are caused by the processes
    that can verify the thesis or patterns that verify its anti-thesis. If just one anti-thesis pattern
    is observed within nature the view is refuted. If a verification pattern is not observed when
    expected then the view is not refuted, it simply remains non verified. Many reasons can exist as to
    why a view has not been verified. Thus non verification is not definitive. Note that verification
    without any possible refutation, is also, not definitive. Mostly, people confuse non verifications
    with refutations or simply do not understand that a refutation is a verification of the antithesis
    of the proposed thesis in question. BOTH have to be explicitly understood. If I can't provide an
    antithesis I may not understand the thesis I am proposing, even if I think I do. Providing points of
    refutation for your ideas proves you know what you are talking about.

    Hamilton's writing referred to Darwinism using Spencer's jingle. If the professionals can't get it
    right then what hope have the general public? Hamilton's rule like Spencer's "survival of the
    fittest" was also, just a tautology because c can be anything from positive, zero, or negative
    within the _same_ rule. This means that mutualism (when c=0 or is negative) and altruism (when c is
    positive) are both incorporated within the _same_ rule as complimentary when if fact they are
    totally self contradictory. One is the anti- thesis of the other. If you incorporate thesis and
    antithesis within the same causative proposition then what you are saying is 100% meaningless
    because cause and affect are 100% reversed in each case. In reality the altruistic side of the rule
    refutes in favour of the mutualistic side. This is easily proven empirically since only the
    altruistic side of the rule allows the absurd situation to develop where relative inclusive fitness
    gains produce an absolute inclusive fitness loss, allowing the extinction of an entire population.
    This irrationality within the rule only becomes apparent when a term for absolute fitness is
    appended to it. When it is, it can be shown that organism fitness altruism caused by selfish
    geneism cannot be verified, anywhere, using a rational Hamilton's rule. Thus supporters of Hamilton
    are only left with the "uninteresting" mutualistic side of his rule. It is only uninteresting to
    them because they mostly appear biased for organism altruism existing within nature. Note that such
    an event always refutes Darwin. Indeed the rule only became prominent because classical group
    selection failed to allow organism fitness altruism within nature. Hamilton's rule was rushed in to
    fill the vacuum.

    I can only conclude that the massive bias for the altruistic side of the rule was political. It is
    either that or just plain, stupidity. The more parsimonious view is that Neo Darwinistic bias was
    politically motivated. This is verified when one examines the political correctness of the times and
    the sad history of the political manipulation of evolutionary theory from its very inception.
    Spencer, on the Looney Right, destroyed Darwin using a tautology. [censored] verified his war using
    Spencer. Millions died. Hamilton on the Looney Left, also employed a tautology causing a phoney war
    to exist within evolutionary theory between "selfishness" and "altruism". Millions of research
    dollars were wasted because of it. The victim of this war was fitness mutualisation. It is this
    neglected view that has been waiting in the wings for over a century. It represents the most
    powerful explanatory paradigm that exists today within evolutionary theory.

    Outside of evolutionary theory, group selective altruism (group selective logic can be proven to be
    present within Hamilton's rule as the group fitness total, b) justified the logic of Marx, Lenin and
    Stalin. Millions died. The big issues are epistemological. Today epistemology is reduced to the
    equivalent of basket weaving, i.e. mostly being provided as entertainment for bored retirees who
    have nothing better to do. This is because post modernism assassinated this discipline. Today,
    nobody takes epistemology seriously. Science graduates "ho hum" their way through such courses
    because they are mostly, just post modern waffle.

    Darwin and Wallace independently came up with the same name for the process they both proposed
    caused evolution within nature: "natural selection". This was simply because this name very
    accurately reflected that process: competition by _default_, i.e. no _intention_ can ever be
    construed to cause any natural selective competition. Such default action excludes any cognition
    being required to judge who wins and who loses. God as the great dictator became redundant for the
    genesis of man. Tribal mankind, given his freedom on a plate, has never got over it because he lost
    his super tribal leader.

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  4. John Edser said:
    Quoted message said:

    JM:-

    Quoted message said:


    JE:- Popper's writings on evolutionary theory were brief. I do not have any references to hand as
    I write this post. Originally he found Darwinian evolution to be a tautology (a circular
    argument). However this conclusion was based on Herbert Spencer's misrepresentation of natural
    selection. Ask anybody, even today, what they think Darwinism is and they will reply with Herbert
    Spencer's "survival of the fittest". The cause of "survival of the fittest" was "only the fittest
    survive". Thus A causes B, only because B causes A!

    Here: A-->B (thesis)
    B-->A (antithesis)

    are combined within the one causative view.

    Such a view is just an absolute contradiction as a theory of cause and affect. In essence a
    tautology is only a valid statement of equality such as: Fitness = the total number of

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    And is therefore a tautology, but a very useful one in explaining observations. It is so useful
    because once we agree that something *is* a Replicator, and has been subject to the Darwinian
    process, the tautology nature means the explanation must be correct.

    One simply asks the question "what action will maximise replicator numbers". e.g.
    anasoft.co.ukmalefemale.html

    The point is that, depending on the conditions, the tautology of "That which is observed mostly, is
    that which replicates the most", predicts *different* results. It is not useless like 1=1 would be.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most.
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

  5. Quoted message said:

    JE:-
    Popper's writings on evolutionary theory
    were brief. I do not have any references
    to hand as I write this post. Originally he
    found Darwinian evolution to be a tautology
    (a circular argument). However this
    conclusion was based on Herbert Spencer's
    misrepresentation of natural selection.
    Ask anybody, even today, what they think Darwinism
    is and they will reply with Herbert Spencer's
    "survival of the fittest". The cause of
    "survival of the fittest" was "only the
    fittest survive". Thus A causes B, only because
    B causes A!
    Here: A-->B (thesis)
    B-->A (antithesis)
    are combined within the one causative view.
    Such a view is just an absolute contradiction
    as a theory of cause and affect. In essence
    a tautology is only a valid statement of equality
    such as: Fitness = the total number of

    KA:- Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    JE:- Spencer only use the word "survival" to mean how long any organism lived. Thus: Those that live
    longer are fitter, because fitter forms must live longer.

    If you define fitness in genetic survival terms then Spencer's jingle equates "survival" with both
    maximal phylogenetic survival (genes over organism generations) AND maximal organism reproduction,
    thus allowing the word to be ambiguous, i.e. it can mean two CONTRADICTORY causations:

    1) Survival = Maximal organism reproduction.

    2) Survival = Maximal gene replication.

    Since 2) is empirically fitness dependent on 1) and not vice versa, then only 1 is a valid
    _causation_. Nobody here will admit that 2) is entirely dependent on 1). Hamilton argues that 1)
    is entirely dependent on 2) against ALL THE EVIDENCE using just an invalid proposition,
    Hamilton's rule.

    KA:- And is therefore a tautology, but a very useful one in explaining observations. It is so useful
    because once we agree that something *is* a Replicator, and has been subject to the Darwinian
    process, the tautology nature means the explanation must be correct. One simply asks the question
    "what action will maximise replicator numbers". e.g.
    anasoft.co.ukmalefemale.html

    JE:- No, you have to ask what action will maximise ABSOLUTE replicator numbers. The Neo Darwinistic
    error is to delete the term, "absolute" and attempt to replace it with "relative".

    KA:- The point is that, depending on the conditions, the tautology of "That which is observed
    mostly, is that which replicates the most", predicts *different* results. It is not useless like
    1=1 would be.

    JE:- It was less than useless, it was contradictory, wasting everybody's time.

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  6. Kevin Aylward said:
    John Edser said:
    Quoted message said:

    JM:-


    Quoted message said:

    JE:- Popper's writings on evolutionary theory were brief. I do not have any references to hand as
    I write this post. Originally he found Darwinian evolution to be a tautology (a circular
    argument). However this conclusion was based on Herbert Spencer's misrepresentation of natural
    selection. Ask anybody, even today, what they think Darwinism is and they will reply with Herbert
    Spencer's "survival of the fittest". The cause of "survival of the fittest" was "only the fittest
    survive". Thus A causes B, only because B causes A!

    Here: A-->B (thesis)
    B-->A (antithesis)

    are combined within the one causative view.

    Such a view is just an absolute contradiction as a theory of cause and affect. In essence a
    tautology is only a valid statement of equality such as: Fitness = the total number of

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    And is therefore a tautology, but a very useful one in explaining observations.

    Well, not quite - the explanations are still tautologies!

    If you look carefully at the maths of natural selection, you'll see that fitness is defined as an
    expectation. One way of looking at this is that it is the average survival if you ran the universe
    many times. What we observe is only one of these replicate runs.

    Therefore, if we can estimate/predict fitness from some other source that actual survival, then we
    can use that to predict whether the fittest will survive the most. This can be done, for example in
    these papers:

    HOVMOLLER, MS; MUNK, L; OSTERGARD, H OBSERVED AND PREDICTED CHANGES IN VIRULENCE GENE-FREQUENCIES AT
    11 LOCI IN A LOCAL BARLEY POWDERY MILDEW POPULATION PHYTOPATHOLOGY, 83 (3): 253-260 MAR 1993

    OSTERGARD, H; HOVMOLLER, MS GAMETIC DISEQUILIBRIA BETWEEN VIRULENCE GENES IN BARLEY POWDERY
    MILDEW POPULATIONS IN RELATION TO SELECTION AND RECOMBINATION .1. MODELS PLANT PATHOL, 40 (2):
    166-177 JUN 1991

    HOVMOLLER, MS; OSTERGARD, H GAMETIC DISEQUILIBRIA BETWEEN VIRULENCE GENES IN BARLEY POWDERY MILDEW
    POPULATIONS IN RELATION TO SELECTION AND RECOMBINATION .2. DANISH OBSERVATIONS PLANT PATHOL, 40 (2):
    178-189 JUN 1991

    (sorry about the lack of Danish characters!)

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  7. Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at [email hidden]
    wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true. The things that replicate most
    will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could give you several examples, but I
    hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large population of organisms reproducing at
    some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation occurring in one individual that causes it to
    replicate more than the rest of the population. During the inevitable period when this mutation is
    rare you would observe that the form which replicates most is not the one mostly observed. It is
    also possible that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-
    span, or its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined as
    those that survive. This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that
    survive." This is indeed a meaningless tautology.

    Cheers,

    Guy

  8. "Guy Hoelzer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true. The things that replicate most
    will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could give you several examples, but I
    hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large population of organisms


    reproducing

    Quoted message said:

    at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation occurring in one individual that causes it
    to replicate more than the rest of the


    population.

    Quoted message said:

    During the inevitable period when this mutation is rare you would observe that the form which
    replicates most is not the one mostly observed. It is also possible that such a mutation will even
    be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-span, or its frequency could be
    influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that


    fitness

    Quoted message said:

    is often defined as those that survive. This statement could then be equivalently written as
    "survival of those that survive." This is indeed


    a

    Quoted message said:

    meaningless tautology.

    That is an essential reason for why JE's angry "absolute fitness" argument is a superfluous argument
    and "a no brainer".

    However, making attempts to analyse and affect John's argument can be fun, and provide for and
    *interesting* study of the AEVASIVE aspect of human activity; Don't you think? ;-)

    P

  9. Guy Hoelzer said:

    Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true.

    A "tautology" is *defined* as something that is true by *construction*. If it isn't always true, it
    not a tautology.

    Quoted message said:

    The things that replicate most will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could
    give you several examples, but I hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large
    population of organisms reproducing at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation occurring
    in one individual that causes it to replicate more than the rest of the population. During the
    inevitable period when this mutation is rare you would observe that the form which replicates most
    is not the one mostly observed.

    Yes, I agree that this is true, but not applicable in the context of when it is used. Maybe I should
    have been a bit more clear on this. It should be inherently understood that the statement is to be
    applied only to steady state conditions, not transient conditions. In my papers, I do specify
    exactly the condition for its validity in its actual derivation:

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html "So, it can be ascertained that if there
    is a consistent and continuous replication rate advantage of one trait verses another, the one that
    is only slightly better, will, given enough time, completely dominate".

    It is also possible

    Quoted message said:

    that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-span, or
    its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined as
    those that survive.

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html. The basic equation is:

    dP/dt = f.P

    P is the population, f is the fitness. The issue is, how do we determine f?

    This equation, actually *defines* f, so it can only be deduced by knowing both P, and dP/dt

    Quoted message said:

    This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that survive." This is
    indeed a meaningless tautology.

    However, all fundamental equations are like that, that is what the equal sign means in them!
    for example

    F = d(mv)/dt, defines force and mass in a circular way. This issue is not just an issue for
    "survival of the fittest", its inherent in all of science. The fundamental axioms are usually
    inherently circular, and all of the rest are derived from this circularity. If it is consistent, and
    actually allows predictions of new results, than it is not usually, a practical issue. Science does
    not deal with absolutes. Its all relative.

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most", is very, very useful because it
    still makes explanations possible, by simply asking the question, "What condition will maximise the
    numbers of Replicators". Often, this can be answered. I give the practical application in another
    post in this thread, so no point in repeating it again.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    "That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most"
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

    "quotes with no meaning, are meaningless" - Kevin Aylward.

  10. Anon. said:
    Kevin Aylward said:
    John Edser said:

    > JM:-

    Quoted message said:

    JE:- Popper's writings on evolutionary theory were brief. I do not have any references to hand
    as I write this post. Originally he found Darwinian evolution to be a tautology (a circular
    argument). However this conclusion was based on Herbert Spencer's misrepresentation of natural
    selection. Ask anybody, even today, what they think Darwinism is and they will reply with
    Herbert Spencer's "survival of the fittest". The cause of "survival of the fittest" was "only
    the fittest survive". Thus A causes B, only because B causes A!

    Here: A-->B (thesis)
    B-->A (antithesis)

    are combined within the one causative view.

    Such a view is just an absolute contradiction as a theory of cause and affect. In essence a
    tautology is only a valid statement of equality such as: Fitness = the total number of

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    And is therefore a tautology, but a very useful one in explaining observations.

    Well, not quite - the explanations are still tautologies!

    Maybe at the fundamental level, as noted in my other post in this thread on this, however I noted in
    the link, anasoft.co.ukmalefemale.html

    Asking the question "what action will maximise replicator numbers" allows one to "predict" what
    action to take to pick up females. The answer to the question tells us that the best way a women can
    maximise her numbers is to chose a mate who is also very popular with women, so that her offspring
    is also has that popularity trait. This is because, males can have, in principle, very large numbers
    of offspring by many females. The converse is not true, because females are knocked up for 9 months,
    so can only have a finite number of offspring. So "That which is observed mostly, is that which
    replicates the most", gives different results based on the conditions.

    So, to pick up a female, go to the pub with a few other females hanging

    other females.

    Quoted message said:


    If you look carefully at the maths of natural selection, you'll see that fitness is defined as an
    expectation. One way of looking at this is that it is the average survival if you ran the universe
    many times. What we observe is only one of these replicate runs.

    Therefore, if we can estimate/predict fitness from some other source that actual survival, then we
    can use that to predict whether the fittest will survive the most. This can be done, for example
    in these papers:

    {sniped references, technically valid, but of little practical value to the upwardly and mobile
    astute male}

    But we don't need to know the exact numbers in order to effectively pick up women. We ask the
    question, "what traits dose the female want her *offspring* to have", *not* "what traits does she
    want for *herself*". Failure to note this crucial distinction, is a sure way to have a lonely
    Saturday night. For example, if she walks up to you and asks you to buy her a drink, say no, no
    female whats a sucker as an offspring. Ask her to buy you the drink as a response...If you ask a
    female to dance and she refuses, get the &*%k away, don't ask her mate sitting next to her. No
    female wants an offspring who is rejected by other women etc...

    So, this particular tautology can be the most useful one in the known 3 universes.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    "That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most"
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

    "quotes with no meaning, are meaningless" - Kevin Aylward.

  11. Kevin Aylward said:
    Guy Hoelzer said:

    Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true.

    A "tautology" is *defined* as something that is true by *construction*. If it isn't always true,
    it not a tautology.

    Quoted message said:

    The things that replicate most will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could
    give you several examples, but I hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large
    population of organisms reproducing at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation
    occurring in one individual that causes it to replicate more than the rest of the population.
    During the inevitable period when this mutation is rare you would observe that the form which
    replicates most is not the one mostly observed.

    Yes, I agree that this is true, but not applicable in the context of when it is used. Maybe I
    should have been a bit more clear on this. It should be inherently understood that the statement
    is to be applied only to steady state conditions, not transient conditions. In my papers, I do
    specify exactly the condition for its validity in its actual derivation:

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html "So, it can be ascertained that if
    there is a consistent and continuous replication rate advantage of one trait verses another, the
    one that is only slightly better, will, given enough time, completely dominate".

    It is also possible

    Quoted message said:

    that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-span, or
    its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined as
    those that survive.

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html. The basic equation is:

    dP/dt = f.P

    P is the population, f is the fitness. The issue is, how do we determine f?

    This equation, actually *defines* f, so it can only be deduced by knowing both P, and dP/dt


    Fitness can be defined from life history theory (indeed that's how Fisher did it in 1930). See,
    for example Brommer, J.E. (2000) The evolution of fitness in life-history theory. Biol. Review
    75: 377-404.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  12. Anon. said:
    Kevin Aylward said:
    Guy Hoelzer said:

    Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    > Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    > equivalent to :
    >
    > "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true.

    A "tautology" is *defined* as something that is true by *construction*. If it isn't always true,
    it not a tautology.

    Quoted message said:

    The things that replicate most will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could
    give you several examples, but I hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large
    population of organisms reproducing at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation
    occurring in one individual that causes it to replicate more than the rest of the population.
    During the inevitable period when this mutation is rare you would observe that the form which
    replicates most is not the one mostly observed.

    Yes, I agree that this is true, but not applicable in the context of when it is used. Maybe I
    should have been a bit more clear on this. It should be inherently understood that the statement
    is to be applied only to steady state conditions, not transient conditions. In my papers, I do
    specify exactly the condition for its validity in its actual derivation:

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html "So, it can be ascertained that if
    there is a consistent and continuous replication rate advantage of one trait verses another, the
    one that is only slightly better, will, given enough time, completely dominate".

    It is also possible

    Quoted message said:

    that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-span, or
    its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined as
    those that survive.

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html. The basic equation is:

    dP/dt = f.P

    P is the population, f is the fitness. The issue is, how do we determine f?

    This equation, actually *defines* f, so it can only be deduced by knowing both P, and dP/dt


    Fitness can be defined from life history theory (indeed that's how Fisher did it in 1930).

    Oh?

    Quoted message said:

    See, for example Brommer, J.E. (2000) The evolution of fitness in life-history theory. Biol. Review
    75: 377-404.

    Er.. how about actually posting the relevant bit? Like, we are all going troll around looking for
    references. By itself, this reference citation says nothing.

    I would be very surprised if it avoided the fundamental issue. As I noted in the bit you sniped.

    F = d(mv)/dt, defines force and mass in a circular way. For example, what is inertial mass. wee, its
    a measure of how must it resist smotion when a force is applied. Well, what is a force, its
    something that accelerates a mass...

    This is a basic issue absolutely inherent in any science. The fundamental defining equations are
    pretty much always circular.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    "That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most"
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

    "quotes with no meaning, are meaningless" - Kevin Aylward.

  13. Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to : "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    GH:- Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true. The things that replicate
    most will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could give you several examples,
    but I hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large population of organisms reproducing
    at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation occurring in one individual that causes it to
    replicate more than the rest of the population. During the inevitable period when this mutation is
    rare you would observe that the form which replicates most is not the one mostly observed. It is
    also possible that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-
    span, or its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.

    JE:- Such a mutation can only be selected for when it increases and does not decrease, the total
    organism fitness of the form it is within.

    GH:- The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined
    as those that survive. This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that
    survive." This is indeed a meaningless tautology.

    JE:- Indeed it is. Today, "survival" means the phylogenetic survival of a gene replicate over
    organism generations of that gene. The implication here is that organism survival, which is only
    transitory, serves phylogenetic gene survival which is potentially immortal. We envy immortality so
    we want such nonsense to be true. It isn't.

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  14. Kevin Aylward wrote: F = d(mv)/dt, defines force and mass in a circular way. For example, what is
    inertial mass. wee, its a measure of how must it resist smotion when a force is applied. Well, what
    is a force, its something that accelerates a mass...

    This is a basic issue absolutely inherent in any science. The fundamental defining equations are
    pretty much always circular.

    JE:- You must identify a general term that represents an absolute assumption within the equation (if
    one exists). If all terms are only relative (an absolute assumption is not represented by any term)
    then the equation is just a tautology. A tautology is only a valid definition of some equality,
    i.e. this = that, which on its own, does _not_ represent a testable theory of science. Variables
    must be included along with the absolute assumption, for a view to be testable.

    Mathematics is _not_ science and an equation is _not_ the theory from which it was derived by
    simplification. Neo Darwinists fail to discriminate between a model and the theory it was just a
    simplification, from. This results in massive errors, e.g. Hamilton's rule.

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  15. in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/10/04 4:21 PM:

    Quoted message said:
    Guy Hoelzer said:

    Hi Kevin et al.,

    On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:

    in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    [email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:

    Quoted message said:

    Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    equivalent to :

    "That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".

    Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true.

    A "tautology" is *defined* as something that is true by *construction*. If it isn't always true,
    it not a tautology.

    Right. I apologize for my misprint. I meant to say "this is NOT a tautology, because it is not
    necessarily true."

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that survive." This is
    indeed a meaningless tautology.

    However, all fundamental equations are like that, that is what the equal sign means in them!
    for example

    Exactly. This is a good point, and I wish it were more appreciated. Equations with equal signs are
    asserted tautologies. Ultimately, the true model of the universe (one version of the theory of
    everything), if one can exist, will be one big tautology: true by definition and untestable.
    Tautologies play essential roles in the scientific enterprise, but the must be put in a separate
    category from the testable models that drive empiricism.

    Cheers,

    Guy

  16. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that survive." This is
    indeed a meaningless tautology.

    Quoted message said:

    However, all fundamental equations are like that, that is what the equal sign means in them!
    for example

    GH:- Exactly. This is a good point, and I wish it were more appreciated. Equations with equal signs
    are asserted tautologies.

    JE:- An equation that contains general terms that are variables and at least one general term that
    represents a maximal or constant value, is _not_ a tautology.

    A=A

    Is a tautology.

    A=B+C

    Is only tautology if neither term within the equation is a maximum or a constant.

    E=Mc^2

    Is not a tautology because c represents the maximal speed of light in a vacuum. If c was just
    another variable then the equation would be a tautology. This equation is just model of Einstein's
    Special Theory of Relativity. It was derived entirely from that theory via a simplification of it.

    rb>c

    Cannot be a tautology because it is an inequality. However, if no general term within this
    inequality is a constant or maximal term, then the inequality is arbitrary.

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  17. Quoted message said:

    F = d(mv)/dt, defines force and mass in a circular way. For example, what is inertial mass. wee,
    its a measure of how must it resist smotion when a force is applied. Well, what is a force, its
    something that accelerates a mass... This is a basic issue absolutely inherent in any science. The
    fundamental defining equations are pretty much always circular.

    BOH:- But as we do not need to define fitness using these equations, the problem can be sidestepped.

    JE:- Out of the pan but into the fire...

    BOH:- Fisher's insight here was to define fitness in terms of the probability of living to age x,
    the rate of production of offspring at age x, and a penalisation term for the time taken to reach
    age x (!). this all gets put into the Euler-Lotka equation, which can be solved to give the
    Malthusian parameter, i.e. the rate of increase.

    JE:- Such a "Malthusian parameter" is just an oversimplification of a simple Darwinian fitness. All
    you have to do to calculate an exact absolute fitness is count the TOTAL number of FERTILE forms
    reproduced by each PARENT within one POPULATION. Everything that Neo Darwinism says and does is just
    an over simplification of this _simple_ fitness count which represents the absolute fitness of each
    competing Darwinian selectee. To find out ALL the orders of selection just compare each parents
    absolute fitness with every other within one population; simple! It always impresses people if you
    can make things look much more complicated than they really are. Hamilton was just a kid in a
    sweetshop who wanted all the sweets so he ended up with none of them. Hamilton wanted all units of
    selection to be complimentary within his inclusive fitness. Neo Darwinists have to learn the hard
    way (the easy way is simply understand what was being said) that they cannot have _all_ the sweets
    otherwise their propositions become non testable. At least ONE sweet, like the apple in the garden
    of Eden, cannot be eaten if Neo Darwinism is to become a testable proposition of a _science_.

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  18. Kevin Aylward said:
    Anon. said:
    Kevin Aylward said:

    Guy Hoelzer wrote:

    >Hi Kevin et al.,
    >
    >On "survival of the fittest" and tautology:
    >
    >in article [email hidden], Kevin Aylward at
    >[email hidden] wrote on 1/8/04 9:19 PM:
    >
    >
    >
    >>Recognition of a tautology can be very useful. "Survival of the fittest" is actually fully
    >>equivalent to :
    >>
    >>"That which is observed mostly, is that which replicates the most".
    >
    >Actually, this is a tautology because it is not necessarily true.

    A "tautology" is *defined* as something that is true by *construction*. If it isn't always true,
    it not a tautology.

    >The things that replicate most will not necessarily be the things that you observe most. I could
    >give you several examples, but I hope the following will suffice. Imagine you have a large
    >population of organisms reproducing at some particular rate. Now introduce a new mutation
    >occurring in one individual that causes it to replicate more than the rest of the population.
    >During the inevitable period when this mutation is rare you would observe that the form which
    >replicates most is not the one mostly observed.

    Yes, I agree that this is true, but not applicable in the context of when it is used. Maybe I
    should have been a bit more clear on this. It should be inherently understood that the statement
    is to be applied only to steady state conditions, not transient conditions. In my papers, I do
    specify exactly the condition for its validity in its actual derivation:

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html "So, it can be ascertained that if
    there is a consistent and continuous replication rate advantage of one trait verses another, the
    one that is only slightly better, will, given enough time, completely dominate".

    It is also possible

    >that such a mutation will even be selected against if it involves a trade-off with life-span, or
    >its frequency could be influenced more by stochastic factors than selective ones.
    >
    >The sense in which "survival of the fittest" is tautological is that fitness is often defined as
    >those that survive.

    anasoft.co.ukreplicatortheory.html. The basic equation is:

    dP/dt = f.P

    P is the population, f is the fitness. The issue is, how do we determine f?

    This equation, actually *defines* f, so it can only be deduced by knowing both P, and dP/dt

    Fitness can be defined from life history theory (indeed that's how Fisher did it in 1930).

    Oh?


    Yes. Fisher, R.A. (1930) The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection. Chapter 2.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    See, for example Brommer, J.E. (2000) The evolution of fitness in life-history theory. Biol.
    Review 75: 377-404.

    Er.. how about actually posting the relevant bit? Like, we are all going troll around looking for
    references. By itself, this reference citation says nothing.


    My hope is that you would be sufficiently interested to read it. Jon reviews several different ways
    of defining fitness that has been used.

    Quoted message said:

    I would be very surprised if it avoided the fundamental issue. As I noted in the bit you sniped.

    F = d(mv)/dt, defines force and mass in a circular way. For example, what is inertial mass. wee,
    its a measure of how must it resist smotion when a force is applied. Well, what is a force, its
    something that accelerates a mass...

    This is a basic issue absolutely inherent in any science. The fundamental defining equations are
    pretty much always circular.


    But as we do not need to define fitness using these equations, the problem can be sidestepped.

    Fisher's insight here was to define fitness in terms of the probability of living to age x, the rate
    of production of offspring at age x, and a penalisation term for the time taken to reach age x (!).
    this all gets put into the Euler-Lotka equation, which can be solved to give the Malthusian
    parameter, i.e. the rate of increase.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Rolf Nevanlinna Institute
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743
    Mobile: +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW: rni.helsinki.fi~boh

  19. "John Edser" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:btnr0o$gs0$1
    @darwin.ediacara.org:

    Quoted message said:

    JE:- Spencer only use the word "survival" to mean how long any organism lived. Thus: Those that
    live longer are fitter, because fitter forms must live longer.

    If you define fitness in genetic survival terms then Spencer's jingle equates "survival" with both
    maximal phylogenetic survival (genes over organism generations) AND maximal organism reproduction,
    thus allowing the word to be ambiguous, i.e. it can mean two CONTRADICTORY causations:

    1) Survival = Maximal organism reproduction.

    2) Survival = Maximal gene replication.

    Since 2) is empirically fitness dependent on 1) and not vice versa, then only 1 is a valid
    _causation_. Nobody here will admit that 2) is entirely dependent on 1). Hamilton argues that 1)
    is entirely dependent on 2) against ALL THE EVIDENCE using just an invalid proposition,
    Hamilton's rule.

    Well we finally see the root of your objection to Hamilton, and it is - (surprise, surprise) - "gene
    centrism"!

    But your problem seems to be only in your own mind. It is obvious that naked genes will not
    survive outside organisms - so in order for genes to reproduce the organisms that carry them must
    reproduce. Hamilton's argument is in fact based on that proposition. Hamilton DOES NOT argue that
    1) is dependent on 2). What Hamilton does argue is that maximal organism reproduction does not
    mean maximal reproduction of only one's own offspring, but must include reproduction of any
    offspring that share one's genes. The only way this could not be true was if genes were
    unimportant in determining survival, i.e. if fitness was only dependent on who your parents are
    and not on what genes they have, i.e. if there is no heritability, i.e. if Darwin was wrong. So
    your disagreement with Hamilton logically must mean that Darwin was wrong.Is this your position,
    that Darwin was wrong?

    Yours,

    Bill Morse

  20. John Edser said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This statement could then be equivalently written as "survival of those that survive." This is
    indeed a meaningless tautology.

    Quoted message said:

    However, all fundamental equations are like that, that is what the equal sign means in them! for
    example

    GH:- Exactly. This is a good point, and I wish it were more appreciated. Equations with equal
    signs are asserted tautologies.

    Well, I was only really refering to *fundamental* ones.

    Quoted message said:


    JE:- An equation that contains general terms that are variables and at least one general term that
    represents a maximal or constant value, is _not_ a tautology.

    This seems like darkness to me.

    Quoted message said:

    A=A

    Is a tautology.

    A=B+C

    Is only tautology if neither term within the equation is a maximum or a constant.

    A maximum value is a constant.

    A tautology is something correct by logical, mathematical construction. One can postulate equations
    that represent physical entities that we don't know whether or not if the equation is physically
    correct or not. The equals sign is not known to be a true equals, but we use it anway.

    In the above, I was referring to the condition where we can only examine one side of the equation by
    measurement of the other side. This makes it tautologies. If we can measure each side of the
    equation, essentially, independent of each other, than it is not a tautologies equation. These cases
    are usually were we suspect that the equation is true, and that it could be contradicted in physical
    measurements.

    Quoted message said:


    E=Mc^2

    Is not a tautology because c represents the maximal speed of light in a vacuum.

    Given that c is invariant, and all inertial motion is equivalent, and the *definition* of
    F=d(mv)/dt, E=integral(F.dl) E=mc^2, is automatic. e.g.
    anasoft.co.ukemc2.html

    Your argument is vacuous, as c is an arbitary units conversion. It could equally well be 1, then it
    would be E=M, which would then be tautology by your above claim.

    Quoted message said:

    If c was just another variable then the equation would be a tautology.

    Even more darkness.

    Quoted message said:

    This equation is just model of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. It was derived entirely
    from that theory via a simplification of it.

    And this means what, exactly? How can one simplify the two postulates of SR?

    Quoted message said:


    rb>c

    Cannot be a tautology because it is an inequality. However, if no general term within this
    inequality is a constant or maximal term, then the inequality is arbitrary.

    You dont seem to have any idea what your talking about.

    Kevin Aylward

    anasoft.co.ukanasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
    Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

    "That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most"
    anasoft.co.ukindex.html

    "quotes with no meaning, are meaningless" - Kevin Aylward.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.