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Dietary Cholesterol

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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13 January 2004
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Alan
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  1. I have cross-posted to both diabetes groups because I have noticed several recent questions on
    dietary cholesterol, particularly on eggs and dairy foods in both newsgroups.

    I'm no expert, but to reduce carbs and subsequent BG highs I started eating eggs for breakfast again
    when I first started testing. I was concerned about all the warnings I had received about
    cholesterol so I did a little research on the net. From what I found then it appeared that the
    cholesterol we create ourselves from eating saturated fats was far greater than that entering our
    bloodstream from diet such as eggs and other animal foods.

    I lost those early references but did a little research today and came up with those that follow.

    I would be very interested in discssion of this subject by those more qualified than me, because the
    carb limitations of our diabetic diet force us to consider protein sources which may be high in
    dietary cholesterol. To my mind, the danger from that is overshadowed by the danger from excessive
    BGs from high carb consumption.

    Some references:

    Refining, or Rather, Redesigning, the Food Guide Pyramid Marilyn Porter, RD, CDE
    diabetesincontrol.comi144.shtml

    Dietary cholesterol and atherosclerosis. Excerpt: "Data indicate that dietary cholesterol has little
    effect on the plasma LDL:HDL ratio. Analysis of the available epidemiological and clinical data
    indicates that for the general population, dietary cholesterol makes no significant contribution to
    atherosclerosis and risk of cardiovascular disease." tinyurl.coms4v1

    Nutritional and Functional Roles of Eggs in the Diet Excerpt: "What consumers may not realize is how
    little effect changes in dietary cholesterol intake have on blood levels." tinyurl.coms4v6

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  2. Alan,

    Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as they
    cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops, their
    triglycerides drop, and their HDL goes up. This is with a diet full of fats. These results are
    now being seen in the university studies that have been published over the past year about low
    carb diets.

    It happened to me. My cholesterol dropped about 50 points when I went on a diet that was 80% fat. My
    triglyerides normalized and my HDL became abnormally high (which is good) .

    However, for this to work you have to keep the carbs low day in and day out for a couple months.

    During first couple weeks of a low carb diet you may see a rise in cholesterol. My doctor explained
    this is true with any successful weight-loss diet and reflects fat being carried out of cells for
    disposal. -- Jenny

    Weight: 168.5/137 Diabetes Type II diagnosed 8/1998 Low Carb 9/1998 - 8/2001 and 11/10/02 - Now

    geocities.comjenny the bean How to calculate your need for protein * How much people
    really lose each month * Water Weight Gain & Loss * The "Two Gram Cure" for Hunger Cravings
    * Characteristics of Successful Dieters * Indispensible Low Carb Treats * Should You Count that Low
    Impact Carb? * Curing Ketobreath * Exercise Starting from Zero * NEW! Do Starch Blockers Work?

    "Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have cross-posted to both diabetes groups because I have noticed several recent questions on
    dietary cholesterol, particularly on eggs and dairy foods in both newsgroups.

    I'm no expert, but to reduce carbs and subsequent BG highs I started eating eggs for breakfast
    again when I first started testing. I was concerned about all the warnings I had received about
    cholesterol so I did a little research on the net. From what I found then it appeared that the
    cholesterol we create ourselves from eating saturated fats was far greater than that entering our
    bloodstream from diet such as eggs and other animal foods.

    I lost those early references but did a little research today and came up with those that follow.

    I would be very interested in discssion of this subject by those more qualified than me, because
    the carb limitations of our diabetic diet force us to consider protein sources which may be high
    in dietary cholesterol. To my mind, the danger from that is overshadowed by the danger from
    excessive BGs from high carb consumption.

    Some references:

    Refining, or Rather, Redesigning, the Food Guide Pyramid Marilyn Porter, RD, CDE
    diabetesincontrol.comi144.shtml

    Dietary cholesterol and atherosclerosis. Excerpt: "Data indicate that dietary cholesterol has
    little effect on the plasma LDL:HDL ratio. Analysis of the available epidemiological and clinical
    data indicates that for the general population, dietary cholesterol makes no significant
    contribution to atherosclerosis and risk of cardiovascular disease." tinyurl.coms4v1

    Nutritional and Functional Roles of Eggs in the Diet Excerpt: "What consumers may not realize is
    how little effect changes in dietary cholesterol intake have on blood levels."
    tinyurl.coms4v6

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  3. Alan said:


    I have cross-posted to both diabetes groups because I have noticed several recent questions on
    dietary cholesterol, particularly on eggs and dairy foods in both newsgroups.

    I'm no expert, but to reduce carbs and subsequent BG highs I started eating eggs for breakfast
    again when I first started testing. I was concerned about all the warnings I had received about
    cholesterol so I did a little research on the net. From what I found then it appeared that the
    cholesterol we create ourselves from eating saturated fats was far greater than that entering our
    bloodstream from diet such as eggs and other animal foods.

    I lost those early references but did a little research today and came up with those that follow.

    I would be very interested in discssion of this subject by those more qualified than me, because
    the carb limitations of our diabetic diet force us to consider protein sources which may be high
    in dietary cholesterol. To my mind, the danger from that is overshadowed by the danger from
    excessive BGs from high carb consumption. <snip>

    The total calories is probably more important than the composition of the daily calorie intake.
    (Even saturated fats get broken apart during digestion. Those fats and cholesterol will be rebuilt
    as needed to store excess calories and in proportions based on individual genetics.)

    It's certainly better to bring down the bg first and worry less about the dietary fats and
    cholesterol. (At least in my opinion.)

    Cindy Wells (who had a school teacher who had genetically high cholesterol from birth (as had her
    father) even with medication and diet modification her cholesterol never went below 200.)

    Quoted message said:

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  4. On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:29:33 +1000, Alan <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    From what I found then it appeared that the cholesterol we create ourselves from eating
    saturated fats was far greater than that entering our bloodstream from diet such as eggs and
    other animal foods.

    This makes no sense.

    antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031021.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

  5. On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:06:08 -0400, "Jenny" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Alan,

    Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as they
    cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops, their
    triglycerides drop, and their HDL goes up. This is with a diet full of fats

    Hi Jenny

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for cholesterol in
    the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    Overall locarb/hi fat diets was not the point of my query. As you brought it up, I developed my own
    diet. The fact that it turned out to be low in carbs and high in protein with minimal unsaturated
    fats was a result of my own research and "eating to my meter". I only knowingly eat saturated fats
    in dairy products; some cheese in dips and whole milk in my coffee. I try to minimise it in the meat
    I eat. I had never heard of the various lo-carb authors or their diets before joining the ng.

    Results since mid 2002 are: Weight: was 117 Kg (257 lbs) now 90 Kg (198 lbs), I am 183 cm (6ft)
    tall. HbA1c: was 8.2 now 6.2 (last July). Triglycerides: was 2.7 (237) now 0.8 (70). Cholesterol:
    was 5.8 (223) now 4.8 (185). HDL: was 1 (38) now1.5 (58)
    LDL: was 3.6 (138) now 2.9 (112)

    I would have eaten one, sometimes two, eggs for breakfast most days since mid 2002. About half my
    meals include small serves of closely trimmed red meat and the other half mainly fish.

    Have you any specific references on cholesterol and triglycerides?

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  6. Valley Of Mu_n said:
    Alan said:

    From what I found then it appeared that the cholesterol we create ourselves from eating
    saturated fats was far greater than that entering our bloodstream from diet such as eggs and
    other animal foods.

    This makes no sense.

    antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031021.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

    OK. I'm willing to learn. Enlighten me.

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  7. cc'd by email diet is quite complx, and most diet promoters ignore that.

    It has been known fro years that dietary cholesteral does not increase seum cholesteral. It is
    beleived that total fats do, bit data is uncertain aout it.

    Alcohol reduced ldl and increases hdl low carbs tends to drop triglycerides.

    Exercise effects the mix even more.

    THEN there are some wildly different results based upon genetic backround.

    To confuse things further, all of this fluctuates, so if two absolutly identical people went on two
    absolutly identical diets, next week one might be up, and one down.

    Over a LONG time, they both should get the same results.

    "it works for me" is usually wrong. people check too fast. So, try, but don't rush to judgment.

    Alan said:
    Jenny said:

    Alan,

    Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as they
    cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops, their
    triglycerides drop, and their HDL goes up. This is with a diet full of fats

    Hi Jenny

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for cholesterol
    in the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    Overall locarb/hi fat diets was not the point of my query. As you brought it up, I developed my
    own diet. The fact that it turned out to be low in carbs and high in protein with minimal
    unsaturated fats was a result of my own research and "eating to my meter". I only knowingly eat
    saturated fats in dairy products; some cheese in dips and whole milk in my coffee. I try to
    minimise it in the meat I eat. I had never heard of the various lo-carb authors or their diets
    before joining the ng.

    Results since mid 2002 are: Weight: was 117 Kg (257 lbs) now 90 Kg (198 lbs), I am 183 cm (6ft)
    tall. HbA1c: was 8.2 now 6.2 (last July). Triglycerides: was 2.7 (237) now 0.8 (70). Cholesterol:
    was 5.8 (223) now 4.8 (185). HDL: was 1 (38) now1.5 (58)
    LDL: was 3.6 (138) now 2.9 (112)

    I would have eaten one, sometimes two, eggs for breakfast most days since mid 2002. About half my
    meals include small serves of closely trimmed red meat and the other half mainly fish.

    Have you any specific references on cholesterol and triglycerides?

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Alan said:
    Jenny said:

    Alan,

    Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as they
    cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops, their
    triglycerides drop, and their HDL goes up. This is with a diet full of fats

    Hi Jenny

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for cholesterol
    in the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    From the results coming in now about low-carb diets, it appears that it's neither of the two
    possibilities you present. Sounds like there's evidence mounting that it's ingested carbohydrates.
    It's pretty clearly not ingested cholesterol. That boat sailed a while ago.

    Priscilla

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Alan said:
    Valley Of Mu_n said:
    Alan said:

    From what I found then it appeared that the cholesterol we create ourselves from eating
    saturated fats was far greater than that entering our bloodstream from diet such as eggs and
    other animal foods.

    This makes no sense.

    antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031021.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

    OK. I'm willing to learn. Enlighten me.

    Alan, that's the troll.

    Priscilla

  10. On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:21:15 +1000, Alan <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From what I found then it appeared that the cholesterol we create ourselves from eating
    saturated fats was far greater than that entering our bloodstream from diet such as eggs and
    other animal foods.

    This makes no sense.

    antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031021.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

    OK. I'm willing to learn. Enlighten me.

    I ask you to enlighten Mu. Your statement appears to be contradictory. Eggs and most animal foods
    are full of sat fat.

    antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031021.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

  11. Priscilla Ballou said:
    In article said:
    Jenny said:

    Alan,

    Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as
    they cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops,
    their triglycerides drop, and their HDL goes up. This is with a diet full of fats

    Hi Jenny

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for cholesterol
    in the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    From the results coming in now about low-carb diets, it appears that it's neither of the two
    possibilities you present. Sounds like there's evidence mounting that it's ingested carbohydrates.
    It's pretty clearly not ingested cholesterol. That boat sailed a while ago.

    Priscilla

    I'll reply to all in this thread (threadlet??) if that's OK.

    One, but not the only, reason I started this thread is that there is general ignorance on
    the subject.

    Those who have been reading on it for a while, such as Priscilla, Ted and some other respondents
    appear to agree that eating cholesterol in food has a minimal effect; although they may disagree on
    exactly what causes high blood cholesterol levels. Loretta is prepared to try eggs, but is nervous
    about the consequences.

    On other threads, when advised to eat eggs or other protein products, newbies (and some "oldies"😉
    almost invariably respond that they can't do that because of the cholesterol danger. So, they may
    continue eating cereal end OJ for breakfast.

    I would like to be able to collect medical references (positive, negative or neutral) to allow me to
    respond with some authority when the question is asked again.

    To an omnivourous diabetic, eggs and other products containing cholesterol are such a basic
    alternative to carbs that any myths limiting their use in moderation should be laid to rest.

    PS. Yeah, I know, DFTT - I hit send before checking on the other thread

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  12. Ted Rosenberg said:

    To confuse things further, all of this fluctuates, so if two absolutly identical people went on
    two absolutly identical diets, next week one might be up, and one down.

    It´s easy to explain. The first one is more active and produces more cortisol. Hepatic cholesterol
    production is increased due to higher cortisol. If you have a TC of 100 you are always very tired
    with a low cortisol value and consequentliy low cholesterol. cholesterol -> cortisol ->
    cholesterol.....

    Werner

  13. Mu is about as enlightening as a burnt out light bulb. LOL BJ

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Julie Bove said:

    "willbill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. boil them longer

    No. It just makes them tough. The trick is to make a pinhole in the big end, start them in cold
    water, just bring to a boil, and if you want them cold, just let the water cool. If you want them
    hot, simmer gently for 12 minutes and plunge into cold water; this helps loosen the shells.
    --
    This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics
    Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
    [email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Alan said:

    I would like to be able to collect medical references (positive, negative or neutral) to allow me
    to respond with some authority when the question is asked again.

    Here's a mess of stuff on and around the topic which I was given as I was making my decision on how
    to treat my diabetes last winter. Sorry I haven't culled it for you, but you can browse it.

    Priscilla

    "A recent study involving over 40,000 middle-aged and older American men over a period of six years
    found that there was no link between saturated fat intake and heart disease in men. It also
    supported the contention that linolenic acid (a form of fat) is preventive against heart disease.
    (Ascherio A et. al. Dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease in men: cohort follow up study in
    the United States. British Medical Journal, 1996 Jul 13, 313:7049, 84-90.)"

    "Several studies have shown that high-carbohydrate low-fat diets lead to high triglycerides,
    elevated serum insulin levels, lower HDL cholesterol levels, and other factors known to raise the
    risk of coronary artery disease. (See Liu GC; Coulston AM; Reaven GM. Effect of high-carbohydrate
    low-fat diets on plasma glucose, insulin and lipid responses in hypertriglyceridemic humans.
    Metabolism, 1983 Aug,
    32:8, 750-3. See also Coulston AM; Liu GC; Reaven GM. Plasma glucose, insulin and lipid responses to
    high-carbohydrate low-fat diets in normal humans. Metabolism, 1983 Jan, 32:1, 52-6. See also
    Olefsky JM; Crapo P; Reaven GM. Postprandial plasma triglyceride and cholesterol responses to a
    low-fat meal. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1976 May, 29:5, 535-9. See also Ginsberg H
    et. al. Induction of hypertriglyceridemia by a low-fat diet. Journal of Clin Endocrinol Metab,
    1976 Apr, 42:4, 729-35) "

    "The idea that saturated fats cause heart disease is completely wrong, but the statement has been
    'published' so many times over the last three or more decades that it is very difficult to convince
    people otherwise unless they are willing to take the time to read and learn what...produced the anti-
    saturated fat agenda." (Dr. Mary Enig, Consulting Editor to the Journal of the American College of
    Nutrition, President of the Maryland Nutritionists Association, and noted lipids researcher.)

    "The diet-heart hypothesis [which suggests that high intake of saturated fat and cholesterol causes
    heart disease] has been repeatedly shown to be wrong, and yet, for complicated reasons of pride,
    profit and prejudice, the hypothesis continues to be exploited by scientists, fund-raising
    enterprises, food companies and even governmental agencies. The public is being deceived by the
    greatest health scam of the century." (Dr. George V. Mann, participating researcher in the
    Framingham study and author of CORONARY HEART DISEASE: THE DIETARY SENSE AND NONSENSE, Janus
    Publishing 1993.)

    High intake of fats from the Omega-3 group increase HDL cholesterol, which is considered protective
    against heart disease. Obviously it would be difficult to eat an Omega-3 rich diet while following a
    traditional fat reduced diet, especially if one were following one of the popular American diets
    that has one eating only 20-30 grams of fat per day. (Franceschini G. et. al. Omega-3 fatty acids
    selectively raise high-density lipoprotein 2 levels in healthy volunteers. Metabolism, 1991 Dec,
    40:12, 1283-6. See also Journal of the American College of Nutrition 1991:10(6);593-601)

    A recent American study showed that low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets (15% protein, 60% carbohydrate,
    25% fat) increase risk of heart disease in post-menopausal women over a higher fat, lower
    carbohydrate diet (15% protein, 40% carbohydrate, 45% fat). (Jeppeson, J., et. al. Effects of low-
    fat, high-carbohydrate diets on risk factors for ischemic heart disease in postmenopausal women.
    American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1997;65:1027-33)

    The largest and most comprehensive study on diet and breast cancer to date, studying over 5,000
    women between 1991 and 1994, showed that women with the lowest intake of dietary fat had a
    significantly higher incidence of breast cancer than the women with the highest intake of dietary
    fat. It also found that women with the highest intake of starch had a significantly higher incidence
    of breast cancer than the women with the lowest intake of starch. The study found no evidence that
    saturated fat had any effect one way or the other on breast cancer, and that unsaturated fat had a
    significantly protective effect against breast cancer. (Franceschi S et. al. Intake of
    macronutrients and risk of breast cancer. Lancet; 347(9012):1351-6 1996)

    "The commonly-held belief that the best diet for prevention of coronary heart disease is a low
    saturated fat, low cholesterol diet is not supported by the available evidence from clinical trials.
    In primary preventions, such diets do not reduce the risk of myocardial infarction or coronary or
    all-cause mortality. Cost-benefit analyses of extensive primary prevention programmes, which are at
    present vigorously supported by governments, health departments, and health educationalists, are
    urgently required....Similarly, diets focused exclusively on reduction of saturated fats and
    cholesterol are relatively ineffective for secondary prevention and should be abandoned. There may
    be other effective diets for secondary prevention of coronary heart disease but these are not yet
    sufficiently well defined or adequately tested." (European Heart Journal, Volume 18, January 1997.)

    "We found no evidence of a positive association between total dietary fat intake and the risk of
    breast cancer. There was no reduction in risk even among women whose energy intake from fat was less
    than 20 percent of total energy intake. In the context of the Western lifestyle, lowering the total
    intake of fat in midlife is unlikely to reduce the risk of breast cancer substantially." (Hunter, DJ
    et. al. Cohort studies of fat intake and the risk of breast cancer - A pooled analysis. New England
    Journal of Medicine, 334: (6) FEB 8 1996)

    33) Title: DG-DISPATCH - ENDO 99: Diabetics Improve Health With Very High-Fat, Low Carb Diet
    Doctor's Guide June 15, 1999

    By Cameron Johnston Special to DG News

    SAN DIEGO, CA -- June 15, 1999 -- A very high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet has been shown to have
    astounding effects in helping type 2 diabetics lose weight and improve their blood lipid profiles.

    The results of three studies involving such a diet, which is similar to, but has a few key
    differences from the famous "Dr. Atkins Diet", were presented today at the annual meeting of the
    Endocrine Society.

    Dr. James Hays, an endocrinologist and director of the Limestone Medical Center in Wilmington, DE,
    admitted that the concept of a high-fat diet in people who are already at higher risk of
    cardiovascular disease might seem incongruous. Nonetheless, this study of 157 men and women with
    type 2 diabetes showed an impressive benefit in body mass index (BMI) triglycerides, HDL, LDL
    and HbA1c.

    Most people are encouraged to reduce the amount of fat in their diets, particularly saturated fats,
    and diabetics in particular are advised to reduce their overall caloric intake, Dr. Hays explained
    in an interview in San Diego during the conference.

    Whereas a normal diet would be in the order of 1800 to 2100 calories, with 60 percent of calories
    coming from carbohydrates and 30 percent from fat, patients

    in this diet were restricted to 1800 calories per day and were encouraged to get 50 percent of their
    caloric intake from fat, and just 20 percent from carbohydrates. The balance of 30 percent would
    come from proteins.

    A whopping 90 percent of the fat content in their diets was saturated fat, compared with just 10
    percent that was monounsaturated fat.

    "I think this is at least worth considering for any diabetic," Dr. Hays said in an interview. "The
    thing many diabetics coming into the office don't realize is that other forms of carbohydrates will
    increase their sugars, too. Dietitians will point them toward complex carbohydrates ... oatmeal and
    whole wheat bread, but we have to deliver the message that these are carbohydrates that increase
    blood sugars, too."

    Higher-fat diets, on the other hand, seem to make the person feel full faster so they eat less; higher-
    fat diets also tend to reduce postprandial hypoglycemia so the patients feel better after eating.

    "Every diabetic comes home from the doctor with instructions as to what their diet should consist
    of, but they're not getting the information from dietitians about what complex carbohydrates they
    should eat,"

    Ds. Hays said: "The important thing here is no ketosis. We absolutely don't want people to become
    ketotic, and so we said they had to have so many exchanges of fresh fruits and vegetables and we
    specified the ones they could eat."

    They were able to eat all the meat and cheese they wanted, but as for carbohydrates, they are
    restricted to eating unprocessed foods, mainly fresh fruit and vegetables, he added.

    Subjects recruited into the study (84 men, 73 women) were all type 2 diabetics and were required to
    undergo a standard American Diabetes Association modified diet for one full year before entry into
    the trial. Over the course of one year, the subjects achieved a mean decline in total cholesterol of
    between 231 and 190 mg/dl. Triglycerides declined from 229 to 182 mg/dl.

    Low-density lipoproteins (LDL cholesterol) fell from 133 to 105 mg/dl, while HDL increased from 44
    to 47 mg/dl.

    HbA1c, which at the start of the study averaged 3.34 percent above normal, declined to the point
    that at one year, the mean was just 0.96 percent above normal.

    The average weight loss among subjects in the study was in the order of 40 pounds, Dr. Hays said.

    By the end of the one-year study, he added, 90 percent of the patients had achieved ADA (American
    Diabetes Association) targets for HbA1c, HDL, LDL and triglycerides.

    Even among juvenile diabetics, he said, they might not be overweight and they might have more or
    less normal lipid levels, but when they are on this kind of diet it is possible to treat them with
    lower doses of insulin and make their lives a little safer, he said.

    As for the response from cardiologists who see a high-fat diet as anathema to what they have been
    instructing their patients for years now, Dr. Hays said he has three cardiologist patients who are
    now on the diet.

    "If you have a diet that results in weight loss, lower cholesterol, and a better lipid profile,
    eventually, everybody will be eating that way. It's going to come whether we like it or not."

    The New England Journal of Medicine -- November 20, 1997 -- Vol. 337, No. 21

    Dietary Fat Intake and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in Women Frank B. Hu, Meir J.
    Stampfer, JoAnn E. Manson, Eric Rimm, Graham A. Colditz, Bernard A. Rosner, Charles H.
    Hennekens, Walter C. Willett
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------

    Abstract Background. The relation between dietary intake of specific types of fat, particularly
    trans unsaturated fat, and the risk of coronary disease remains unclear. We therefore studied this
    relation in women enrolled in the Nurses' Health Study.

    Methods. We prospectively studied 80,082 women who were 34 to 59 years of age and had no known
    coronary disease, stroke, cancer, hypercholesterolemia, or diabetes in 1980. Information on diet was
    obtained at base line and updated during follow-up by means of validated questionnaires. During 14
    years of follow-up, we documented 939 cases of nonfatal myocardial infarction or death from coronary
    heart disease. Multivariate analyses included age, smoking status, total energy intake, dietary
    cholesterol intake, percentages of energy obtained from protein and specific types of fat, and other
    risk factors.

    Results. Each increase of 5 percent of energy intake from saturated fat, as compared with equivalent
    energy intake from carbohydrates, was associated with a 17 percent increase in the risk of coronary
    disease (relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.97 to 1.41; P = 0.10). As compared
    with equivalent energy from carbohydrates, the relative risk for a 2 percent increment in energy
    intake from trans unsaturated fat was 1.93 (95 percent confidence interval, 1.43 to 2.61; P<0.001);
    that for a 5 percent increment in energy from monounsaturated fat was 0.81 (95 percent confidence
    interval, 0.65 to 1.00; P = 0.05); and that for a 5 percent increment in energy from polyunsaturated
    fat was 0.62 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.46 to 0.85; P = 0.003). Total fat intake was not
    significantly related to the risk of coronary disease (for a 5 percent increase in energy from fat,
    the relative risk was 1.02; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.97 to 1.07; P = 0.55). We estimated
    that the replacement of 5 percent of energy from saturated fat with energy from unsaturated fats
    would reduce risk by 42 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 23 to 56; P<0.001) and that the
    replacement of 2 percent of energy from trans fat with energy from unhydrogenated, unsaturated fats
    would reduce risk by 53 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 34 to 67; P<0.001).

    Conclusions. Our findings suggest that replacing saturated and trans unsaturated fats with
    unhydrogenated monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats is more effective in preventing coronary
    heart disease in women than reducing overall fat intake. (N Engl J Med 1997;337:1491-9.)

    Source Information

    Quoted message said:

    From the Departments of Nutrition (F.B.H., M.J.S., E.R., W.C.W.),


    Epidemiology (M.J.S., J.E.M., E.R., B.A.R., W.C.W.), and Biostatistics
    (D.s.A.), Harvard School of Public Health; and the Channing Laboratory (M.J.S.,
    D.s.B., E.R., G.A.C., B.A.R., C.H.H., W.C.W.) and the Division of Preventive Medicine (J.E.M.,
    C.H.H.), Department of Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School --
    all in Boston. Address reprint requests to Dr. Hu at the Department of Nutrition, Harvard
    School of Public Health, 665 Huntington Ave., Boston, MA 02115.

    Ann Intern Med 1998 Apr 1;128(7):524-33

    Metabolic risk factors worsen continuously across the spectrum of nondiabetic glucose tolerance. The
    Framingham Offspring Study.

    Meigs JB, Nathan DM, Wilson PW, Cupples LA, Singer DE Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard
    Medical School, Boston University School of Public Health, 02114, USA. [email hidden]

    BACKGROUND: Categorical definitions for glucose intolerance imply that risk thresholds exist, but
    metabolic risk for type 2 diabetes mellitus or cardiovascular disease may increase continuously as
    glucose intolerance increases. OBJECTIVE: To examine the distributions of the following metabolic
    risk factors across the spectrum of glucose tolerance: overall and central obesity, hypertension,
    low levels of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and increased triglyceride and insulin levels.
    DESIGN: Cross-sectional analysis. SETTING: The community-based Framingham Offspring Study.
    PARTICIPANTS: 2583 adults without previously diagnosed diabetes. MEASUREMENTS: Clinical data;
    fasting glucose, insulin, and lipid levels; and glucose and insulin levels taken 2 hours after oral
    challenge were collected from 1991 to 1993. Glucose tolerance was determined by 1980 World Health
    Organization criteria. Patients with normal glucose tolerance were categorized into quintiles of
    fasting glucose. The distributions of each metabolic risk factor and the metabolic sum of the six
    risk factors were assessed across seven categories from the lowest quintile of normal fasting
    glucose level through impaired glucose tolerance and previously undiagnosed diabetes. RESULTS: The
    mean age of patients was 54 years (range, 26 to 82 years); 52.7% of patients were women. Glucose
    tolerance testing found that 12.7% of patients had impaired glucose tolerance and 4.8% had
    previously undiagnosed diabetes. Multivariable-adjusted mean measures of risk factors and odds
    ratios for obesity, elevated waist-to-hip ratio, hypertension, low levels of high-density
    lipoprotein cholesterol, elevated triglyceride levels, and hyperinsulinemia showed continuous
    increases across the spectrum of nondiabetic glucose tolerance. Although a threshold effect near the
    upper range of nondiabetic glucose tolerance could not be ruled out for triglyceride levels in men
    and for insulin levels 2 hours after oral challenge in men and women, no other metabolic risk
    factors showed clear evidence of thresholds for increased risk. CONCLUSIONS: Metabolic risk factors
    for type 2 diabetes mellitus and for cardiovascular disease worsen continuously across the spectrum
    of glucose tolerance categories, beginning in the lowest quintiles of normal fasting glucose level.

    PMID: 9518396, UI: 98175274

  16. Alan said:
    Priscilla Ballou said:
    In article said:

    On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:06:08 -0400, "Jenny" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >Alan,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have discovered that as soon as
    >they cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms a day, say) their LDL cholesterol drops,

    Mine went up

    Quoted message said:

    their triglycerides drop,

    Mine did

    Quoted message said:

    and their HDL goes ups

    mine remained the same.

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for
    cholesterol in the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From the results coming in now about low-carb diets, it appears that it's neither of the two
    possibilities you present. Sounds like there's evidence mounting that it's ingested carbohydrates.
    It's pretty clearly not ingested cholesterol. That boat sailed a while ago. Priscilla

    Quoted message said:

    I'll reply to all in this thread (threadlet??) if that's OK.

    Quoted message said:

    One, but not the only, reason I started this thread is that there is general ignorance on
    the subject.

    Quoted message said:

    Those who have been reading on it for a while, such as Priscilla, Ted and some other respondents
    appear to agree that eating cholesterol in food has a minimal effect; although they may disagree on
    exactly what causes high blood cholesterol levels. Loretta is prepared to try eggs, but is nervous
    about the consequences.

    Quoted message said:

    On other threads, when advised to eat eggs or other protein products, newbies (and some "oldies"😉
    almost invariably respond that they can't do that because of the cholesterol danger. So, they may
    continue eating cereal end OJ for breakfast.

    Quoted message said:

    I would like to be able to collect medical references (positive, negative or neutral) to allow me
    to respond with some authority when the question is asked again.

    Quoted message said:

    To an omnivourous diabetic, eggs and other products containing cholesterol are such a basic
    alternative to carbs that any myths limiting their use in moderation should be laid to rest.
    PS. Yeah, I know, DFTT - I hit send before checking on the other thread Cheers Alan, T2, Oz

    My last test results were:

    HDL 1.2 [1.2 previous] LDL 1.8 [2.1 previous] Tri: 0.9 [1.3 previous] Cholo 3.4 [down from 3.9 on
    the previous]

    My diet [food intake] is ultra low carb I think. I say I think because I only ingest per day. 2 x
    crisp breads and 2 x wholemeal bread slices and 1/2 teacup of oats. Nothing else. I eat 4 eggs aweek
    [fried] and four rashers of bacon. 3 Yoghurts......................etc.

    This fat thing is confusing. I know for a fact that I have no cholesterol problem whatsoever. Not
    furring of the arteries nor likely to suffer as a result before I die of some other thing. Prior to
    Dx I was overweight but it was consistent. I also ate anything and everything irespective of what it
    was or how it was cooked. So, what is it that gives me the benefit of not having the problem that
    seems to bother others?

    FWIW my current diet is balanced. I do not follow a specific diet plan [such at Atkins or
    somesuch] I watch my meter and know what does what to me, when and how. But I do listen to my body
    when it tells me what it wants and what it does not and I do not need the meter for that. Well it
    works for me.

    Pete

    Diagnosed 20/03/03 Type II D&E + Metformin + Gliclazide
    + Asprin 210lbs at Dx to 170 lbs 02/08/03 target 161.

  17. "Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    One, but not the only, reason I started this thread is that there is general ignorance on the
    subject.

    that is why with things like this its a good idea to talk to a dietitian about how much of this that
    and the other thing would be good for different individuals to include into their diets. there are
    just too many variables involved to determine who should eat what. don't believe me? ask a
    dietitian.

    .

  18. We have eggs produced here from hens that are fed a diet that increases the Omega 3 content and
    reduces cholestrol.

    Mano Govender

    "Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Priscilla Ballou said:
    In article said:

    On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:06:08 -0400, "Jenny" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    >Alan,
    >
    >Hundreds of people who have posted on the low carb newsgroup have


    discovered

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >that as soon as they cut their carbs to very low levels (under 80 gms


    a day,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >say) their LDL cholesterol drops, their triglycerides drop, and their


    HDL

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >goes up. This is with a diet full of fats

    Hi Jenny

    I may not have stated it clearly. My main query is concern over the primary cause for
    cholesterol in the bloodstream - whether it is from ingested cholesterol or saturated fat.

    From the results coming in now about low-carb diets, it appears that it's neither of the two
    possibilities you present. Sounds like there's evidence mounting that it's ingested
    carbohydrates. It's pretty clearly not ingested cholesterol. That boat sailed a while ago.

    Priscilla

    I'll reply to all in this thread (threadlet??) if that's OK.

    One, but not the only, reason I started this thread is that there is general ignorance on the
    subject.

    Those who have been reading on it for a while, such as Priscilla, Ted and some other respondents
    appear to agree that eating cholesterol in food has a minimal effect; although they may disagree
    on exactly what causes high blood cholesterol levels. Loretta is prepared to try eggs, but is
    nervous about the consequences.

    On other threads, when advised to eat eggs or other protein products, newbies (and some "oldies"😉
    almost invariably respond that they can't do that because of the cholesterol danger. So, they may
    continue eating cereal end OJ for breakfast.

    I would like to be able to collect medical references (positive, negative or neutral) to allow me
    to respond with some authority when the question is asked again.

    To an omnivourous diabetic, eggs and other products containing cholesterol are such a basic
    alternative to carbs that any myths limiting their use in moderation should be laid to rest.

    PS. Yeah, I know, DFTT - I hit send before checking on the other thread

    Cheers Alan, T2, Oz
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Herman Rubin) said:
    In article said:

    "willbill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. boil them longer

    No. It just makes them tough. The trick is to make a pinhole in the big end,

    How?

    Priscilla

  20. Oct 2003 10:04:09 -0500 said:
    Quoted message said:

    "willbill" wrote:


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    2. boil them longer

    No. It just makes them tough. The trick is to make a pinhole in the big end, start them in cold
    water, just bring to a boil, and if you want them cold, just let the water cool. If you want them
    hot, simmer gently for 12 minutes and plunge into cold water; this helps loosen the shells.

    herman, thank you for taking pity on me and posting. 🙂

    the responses and ideas, in response to your post, are the best

    thank you also to vickie. 🙂

    and yes, i really did get totally [censored] and toss those unpeelable hard boiled eggs down the
    road as far as i could throw them <g> but that was a long time ago and i was using really cheap eggs
    which may have been a contributing factor

    i'll try some pinholes with my next dozen hard boiled eggs

    i also plan to keep aging my eggs in the fridge for a minimum of 2+ weeks until i have more
    confidence of whether it helps or not

    the good news is that my hard boiled eggs of this last 5 years have only had minor peeling
    problems. 🙂)

    bill

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