Treadmill Incline

In article said:

I recall that at least some people felt running at a 1% incline more accurately duplicated the
effort required for flat, outdoor, road running than level treadmill running. Is that right?

The people who feel that are, simply put, wrong, or at least wrongheaded.

The 1% incline is supposed to compensate for the lack of air resistance. But this doesn't even begin
to address the following larger issues:

(1) Heat: Indooor conditions are usually too warm for optimal performance. So
you can heat up substantially on a treadmill, and that slows you down.

(2) Airflow: The "tailwind effect" that you get from not moving is a mixed blessing, especially when
you already have trouble with heat because of (1). The lack of airflow is even more of a problem
than heat (unless you have some fans set up)

(3) Terrain: I am perplexed as to why people must "adjust" the effort on the treadmill, and yet do
not similarly "adjust" their milage due to factors like terrain outdoors. The difference
between pavement, dirt, mud and snow is much greater than this air resistance effect that
people agonize about.

(4) Calibration: 'nuff said.

So you can by all means habitually use a 1% incline. It does reduce the impact, and slightly
increase the difficulty of the workout.

But to say that 1% automatically "duplicates the effort" is a load of horseshit. For some workouts,
like demanding track intervals, I found the treadmill to be a slightly *more* challenging training
venue, perhaps partly due to calibration errors, and partly because heat buildup is a serious issue
when you're training hard, and partly because the hard track is a very "fast" training surface,
faster than a relatively soft treadmill.

On the other hand, to duplicate the effort of a hilly course, over a dirt or snow covered trail, you
may well need much greater adjustments to the incline.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Steve Freides said:

Hi, all - been away from rec.running for a while. After starting getting more serious about
weights in various forms and doing less running, anyway, a bad case of pneumonia about a year ago
meant no outdoor exercise in cold weather then and I'm healthier only running outside when the
weather's warmer.

Hi Steve, It's good to see you back here again and sorry to hear about your pneumonia. Not relevant
to your question but relevant to people with asthma exercising outside in cold: have you tried using
a face mask or scarf or balaclava or something across mouth/nose to help keep air moistened. It may
not work that well near 45F since the air can still carry a fair amount of moisture there, but when
we (alaska) get down to +10F and colder (esp. subzero F), almost everyone uses something across
their mouth or nose at least part of the time to help moisten the air and reduce dehydration
effects. OTOH, you may prefer exercising indoors
- just trying to offer a possible solution if you wanted to get out more.

Quoted message said:

I recall that at least some people felt running at a 1% incline more accurately duplicated the
effort required for flat, outdoor, road running than level treadmill running. Is that right? I've
been using a 1% incline for all my treadmill running but my days of regular distance running are
far enough behind me that I can't really compare the levels of effort any more.

Caveat: I run mostly hilly trails and about the only time I'm on a road is if it's snow covered and
the snow on trails is too deep for me to run. The only time I've used a treadmill in recent years is
during circuit training in a cross-training class, and the 1-min work intervals (30 sec switch
stations) aren't the same as running on them for a period of time. YMMV.

My opinion: it's nigh impossible to duplicate anything with anything else, and I find treadmills far
easier to run on than other surfaces (at least for the brief periods I've been able to sample them).
I can't remember if you use a hrm or not. But what I would do is either raise the incline or
increase your pace, until the hrm gave a value near what you used to use for an easy effort on road,
assuming you logged it. Or maintain a conversational effort, whichever works. Some people laugh at
hrm's, but they're one easy way I've found to monitor volume and effort across all types of
exercises and training conditions - hills, wind, mud, deep snow, running, snowshoeing, xc skiing,
biking, plyometrics, hiking up mountains, etc.

Yes, it's frequently suggested to use a slope around 1-2% to duplicate the energy costs (iirc, that
was the parameter of the study I saw) of flat road running. I, personally, can't tell the slope has
been increased until it's at least several percent, and unless they've told us to keep the
treadmills flat, I tend to increase the slope to 7 to 10% to be able to get my hr up so hr doesn't
get below easy zone during the strength portions (only 1-min work sessions and can't get slope up
much faster, and 3 strength between aerobic stations). I also tend to prefer the slope because it
forces my feet to dorsiflex more and keeps my achillles more flexible (I've had some AT problems in
past) compared with running flat.

Also, Bill mentioned putting boards under the back of treadmill to get a downhill. We've done that
with something like a 4x4 - bore a lot of resemblance to a railroad tie but was smaller - very
stable. Good downhill work.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, all - been away from rec.running for a while. After starting getting more serious about
weights in various forms and doing less running,

anyway,

Quoted message said:

a bad case of pneumonia about a year ago meant no outdoor exercise in cold weather then and I'm
healthier only running outside when the weather's warmer.

I have heard that running outside in fresh air is better for your lungs and that, arctic dwellers
aside, we need not worry about the cold. Further, cold air does not make us get "colds". My own 35
years of running and posts by Alaskan runners and others confirms this. In fact, the very dry indoor
air reduces the ability of breathing passages to protect us from viruses and bacteria; and, the lack
of fresh air circulation in public places makes them a better place to "share" the germs. At this
time of year we can use some sunlight on our skin, as well.

Quoted message said:

My question concerns the incline of the treadmill.

I recall that at least some people felt running at a 1% incline more accurately duplicated the
effort required for flat, outdoor, road running than level treadmill running. Is that right? I've
been using a 1%

incline

Quoted message said:

for all my treadmill running but my days of regular distance running are

far

Quoted message said:

enough behind me that I can't really compare the levels of effort any

more.

Quoted message said:

I remember 1.5%, to compensate for the lack of wind drag. But, at least as important, the outdoor
run usually has some nonlevel portions. So, use the treadmill's "hill" course with a very modest
level of difficulty to best simulate your outdoor runs. I find that 1.5% makes a big difference in
performance.

You can run longer and faster indoors at 0% incline to reach "outdoor" fitness levels.

If you can get one of those industrial fans with a lot of power, direct it from the front to
simulate outdoor running and cooling. It will also reduce the amount of salty sweat dripping on your
newly serviced machine.

If you raise the rear of your treadmill using a 2x4, or other wooden board, you can also get
training in running downhill, which tests your quads and running form, but I have not tried
this myself.

Quoted message said:

If anyone wants to see what I'm up to lately, feel free to pay a visit to kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗ - I
get most of my exercise, including aerobic

exercise,

Quoted message said:

with kettlebells. Spending 10+ minutes swinging a 36 lb. weight from

How about the appropriate big band music?

Quoted message said:

between my legs to over my head and back again is, well, remarkably good

for

Quoted message said:

both strength/endurance in much of the body's musculature and the cardiovascular system - my
resting pulse actually a little _lower_ than it was when I was a 20-30 mile/week runner - it's
about 40 bpm now.

Thanks in advance, and best wishes for a happy and healthy new year to everyone.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi "The king of all treadmill joggers"<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Good advice cutiepie.

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Hi, all - been away from rec.running for a while. After starting

getting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more serious about weights in various forms and doing less running,

anyway,

Quoted message said:

a bad case of pneumonia about a year ago meant no outdoor exercise in

cold

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weather then and I'm healthier only running outside when the weather's warmer.

I have heard that running outside in fresh air is better for your lungs

and

Quoted message said:

that, arctic dwellers aside, we need not worry about the cold. Further, cold air does not make us
get "colds". My own 35 years of running and

posts

Quoted message said:

by Alaskan runners and others confirms this. In fact, the very dry indoor air reduces the ability
of breathing passages to protect us from viruses

and

Quoted message said:

bacteria; and, the lack of fresh air circulation in public places makes

them

Quoted message said:

a better place to "share" the germs. At this time of year we can use some sunlight on our skin,
as well.

We had this discussion here before - several folks, none of whom has asthma, said just what you
said, that it's nonsense that running in anything above about 15 to 20 degree Farenheit can be bad
for you. I encourage you to post your opinion on alt.support.asthma - you'll find yourself not only
disagreed with but alternately shouted down and laughed at. At the time I originally posted my
question on this subject, my asthma wasn't too severe (it had just started to return) and I
observed merely that running in anything below about 45 degrees hampered my breathing which in turn
hampered my performance. Many suffers of childhood asthma, including me, see symptoms return
between ages 30 and 50 - for me they began to return around age 45. You obviously haven't a clue
what it's like to nearly lose your life to pneumonia. I will spare everyone the details except to
say that your observations may be valid for healthy individuals but they are not valid for me - and
we'll leave it at that.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My question concerns the incline of the treadmill.

I recall that at least some people felt running at a 1% incline more accurately duplicated the
effort required for flat, outdoor, road

running

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than level treadmill running. Is that right? I've been using a 1%

incline

Quoted message said:

for all my treadmill running but my days of regular distance running are

far

Quoted message said:

enough behind me that I can't really compare the levels of effort any

more.

Quoted message said:

I remember 1.5%, to compensate for the lack of wind drag. But, at least

as

Quoted message said:

important, the outdoor run usually has some nonlevel portions. So, use

the

Quoted message said:

treadmill's "hill" course with a very modest level of difficulty to best simulate your outdoor
runs. I find that 1.5% makes a big difference in performance.

You can run longer and faster indoors at 0% incline to reach "outdoor" fitness levels.

If you can get one of those industrial fans with a lot of power, direct it from the front to
simulate outdoor running and cooling. It will also

reduce

Quoted message said:

the amount of salty sweat dripping on your newly serviced machine.

If you raise the rear of your treadmill using a 2x4, or other wooden

board,

Quoted message said:

you can also get training in running downhill, which tests your quads and running form, but I have
not tried this myself.

Quoted message said:

If anyone wants to see what I'm up to lately, feel free to pay a visit

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗ - I get most of my exercise, including aerobic

exercise,

Quoted message said:

with kettlebells. Spending 10+ minutes swinging a 36 lb. weight from

How about the appropriate big band music?

Quoted message said:

between my legs to over my head and back again is, well, remarkably good

for

Quoted message said:

both strength/endurance in much of the body's musculature and the cardiovascular system - my
resting pulse actually a little _lower_ than

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was when I was a 20-30 mile/week runner - it's about 40 bpm now.

Thanks in advance, and best wishes for a happy and healthy new year to everyone.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

Hi, all - been away from rec.running for a while. After starting

getting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more serious about weights in various forms and doing less running,

anyway,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a bad case of pneumonia about a year ago meant no outdoor exercise in

cold

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weather then and I'm healthier only running outside when the weather's warmer.

Hi Steve, It's good to see you back here again and sorry to hear about your pneumonia. Not
relevant to your question but relevant to people with asthma exercising outside in cold: have you
tried using a face mask or scarf or balaclava or something across mouth/nose to help keep air
moistened. It may not work that well near 45F since the air can still carry a fair amount of
moisture there, but when we (alaska) get down to +10F and colder (esp. subzero F), almost everyone
uses something across their mouth or nose at least part of the time to help moisten the air and
reduce dehydration effects. OTOH, you may prefer exercising indoors
- just trying to offer a possible solution if you wanted to get out more.

I tried balaclavas and similar things over and over and always felt like I couldn't get enough air
through them. I suppose some of this, maybe most, even, is psychological, but when you have
difficulty breathing, anything that gets in the way of you breathing is, well, problematic. I had
someone show me an exercise that's been helping with that - you simply pinch off your nostrils part
of the way so that breathing is a little difficult but still doable and try to breath in and out
only through your nose for a few minutes. It's been helping in several ways: it helps ease the panic
when you can't breath freely but, more importantly, it teaches a deeper kind of breathing and
strengthens the diaphragm muscle. I never used to be even able to walk with anything in front of my
nose or mouth but now use a Pearl Izumi neck gaitor when it's cold and I can walk with it pretty
comfortably now. Definitely a work in progress but I have to tell you that, even after just spending
time out of doors in the cold, I suffer. I even notice a simple 15 minute walk when it's cold
outside for the day or two after. For the time being, my solution is to perform all vigorous
exercise indoors. As I said earlier, I'm managing to stay in great shape primarily with my
kettlebells and am running just enough so that I don't forget how - maybe a mile or two, maybe once
or twice a week. My form is still good, my cadence is always dead on 180 per minute regardless of my
speed, and I have no trouble outrunning my treadmill at its highest speed. I'm mostly focusing on
relaxing while running, building a little muscle-memory to take with me when the weather gets nicer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I recall that at least some people felt running at a 1% incline more accurately duplicated the
effort required for flat, outdoor, road

running

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than level treadmill running. Is that right? I've been using a 1%

incline

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for all my treadmill running but my days of regular distance running are

far

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

enough behind me that I can't really compare the levels of effort any

more.

Quoted message said:

Caveat: I run mostly hilly trails and about the only time I'm on a road is if it's snow covered
and the snow on trails is too deep for me to run. The only time I've used a treadmill in recent
years is during circuit training in a cross-training class, and the 1-min work intervals (30 sec
switch stations) aren't the same as running on them for a period of time. YMMV.

My opinion: it's nigh impossible to duplicate anything with anything else, and I find treadmills
far easier to run on than other surfaces (at least for the brief periods I've been able to sample
them). I can't remember if you use a hrm or not. But what I would do is either raise the incline
or increase your pace, until the hrm gave a value near what you used to use for an easy effort on
road, assuming you logged it. Or maintain a conversational effort, whichever works. Some people
laugh at hrm's, but they're one easy way I've found to monitor volume and effort across all types
of exercises and training conditions - hills, wind, mud, deep snow, running, snowshoeing, xc
skiing, biking, plyometrics, hiking up mountains, etc.

Yes, it's frequently suggested to use a slope around 1-2% to duplicate the energy costs (iirc,
that was the parameter of the study I saw) of flat road running. I, personally, can't tell the
slope has been increased until it's at least several percent, and unless they've told us to keep
the treadmills flat, I tend to increase the slope to 7 to 10% to be able to get my hr up so hr
doesn't get below easy zone during the strength portions (only 1-min work sessions and can't get
slope up much faster, and 3 strength between aerobic stations). I also tend to prefer the slope
because it forces my feet to dorsiflex more and keeps my achillles more flexible (I've had some AT
problems in past) compared with running flat.

I guess I should have been more specific in my question. I realize it's impossible to duplicate
outdoor running on a treadmill for a variety of reasons but my goal is pretty simple - I just want
to know that I've got my treadmill adjusted so that my approximate level of effort at, e.g.,
8:00/mile is the same as that effort done on a flat road surface outdoors. I know there will be
things to get used to once I start to run outside again but what I want to avoid is deluding
myself with my indoor pace. A 1% or 2% incline seems, as we used to say in classical music
school when tuning our instruments, close enough for rock and roll. I'm content to wait for
real outdoor running to get used to downhills again although I may do some 0% incline running
to help at least a little in that regard.

Thanks for your input - much appreciated.

-S- kbnj.comkbnj.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Also, Bill mentioned putting boards under the back of treadmill to get a downhill. We've done that
with something like a 4x4 - bore a lot of resemblance to a railroad tie but was smaller - very
stable. Good downhill work.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

This chart might be of interest to you:
hillrunner.comtmillchart.htmlOpen ↗

It's supposedly based on energy expenditure, not hr as other things may elevate hr. It's based on
averages, like all studies, so everyone is different, but it's a potential starting point. And
nothing ever takes the actual feel of the road into account.

I found it rather amusing when I looked at it's energy equilavent paces and what I actually run on
hilly trails.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

This chart might be of interest to you: hillrunner.comtmillchart.htmlOpen ↗

It's supposedly based on energy expenditure, not hr as other things may elevate hr. It's based on
averages, like all studies, so everyone is different, but it's a potential starting point. And
nothing ever takes the actual feel of the road into account.

I found it rather amusing when I looked at it's energy equilavent paces and what I actually run on
hilly trails.

Dot

That's interesting. I've never really thought about running hills or inlcine treadmill as
"equivelant" to a certain flat land speed. I've always thought of it as more of a "strength"
training excercise. Does running on a flat at 8:07 min/mi pace have a similar effect as
running up a 10% grade hill at a 8:07 pace? Another issue I've always wondered about is,
what effect does a treadmill incline have vs a real hill. Seems that on a treadmill the only
real extra movement and energy expenditure is simply raising the leg as you aren't really
moving the body up. In real hill running your actually transporting the body weight up.
Again guessing, when one is running on a treadmill a person is not actually moveing the
weight of the body, yet in effect we aren't when running either, merely breaking the fall of
the body. However when running up a hill we are moving the body up, yet not on a treadmill.
Does running an incline resemble running up a hill even less than running on a flat
treadmill does running on a flat surface.

Just me rambling again... ~Matt

Quoted message said:

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

MJuric said:

Dot dot.h@#att.net said:

This chart might be of interest to you: hillrunner.comtmillchart.htmlOpen ↗

It's supposedly based on energy expenditure, not hr as other things may elevate hr. It's based on
averages, like all studies, so everyone is different, but it's a potential starting point. And
nothing ever takes the actual feel of the road into account.

I found it rather amusing when I looked at it's energy equilavent paces and what I actually run on
hilly trails.

Dot

That's interesting. I've never really thought about running hills or inlcine treadmill as
"equivelant" to a certain flat land speed. I've always thought of it as more of a "strength"
training excercise. Does running on a flat at 8:07 min/mi pace have a similar effect as
running up a 10% grade hill at a 8:07 pace?

I don't think so. My understanding is that what the chart is showing is that running a 10% grade
hill at 12:00 min/mile pace on tm requires on average (for the people used in study, at least I
think that's where the numbers come from) the same energy as running 8:07 min/mile on flat road.
Nothing about feel or effort.

Here's the thread where I got the info. rwforums.rodale.comthread.jspOpen ↗

But in case you can't wait to get your hands on a study looking at energy expenditure on hills on
treadmill, here's an abstract of one for you that was discussed in subthread "Calories/Running"
starting with post #20 last April:

physiology.cup.cam.ac.ukS130.htmlOpen ↗

For humorous data points: The 5-6mph, 7-10% slope settings (only 1 min work intervals, but felt like
I was walking when 5mph flat) I was using the last time I used the tmill supposedly burn the same
amount of energy as 8 min/mile (+- a min) on flat roads according to the table. It doesn't say I can
run 8 min/miles on a flat road. That concept is truly laughable. For humorous ball park comparison
figures, my race pace (3-4 mile) is about 12 min/mile on easy dirt trails with some hills (maybe a
200-300ft up and down in 3-4 miles) and typical training paces are about 15-18+ min/mi but range
from 13 up to 24 min/mile running - not counting the run/hike/gasp 50-min mile (1500ft up in that
mile). The slower the pace, the tougher the running conditions and the harder the workout for me.
And people wonder why I train by effort rather than pace 😉

Reaching for speed or incline dials was *not* the situation last winter, even with only 1-min work
intervals, where I could barely keep 5mph on most of the inclines we used.

I consider most of this academic discussion. A person just has to do what works for them.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article said:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:30:35 GMT, Dot <dot.h@#att.net> wrote:

Quoted message said:

That's interesting. I've never really thought about running hills or inlcine treadmill as
"equivelant" to a certain flat land speed. I've always thought of it as more of a "strength"
training excercise. Does running on a flat at 8:07 min/mi pace have a similar effect as
running up a 10% grade hill at a 8:07 pace? Another issue I've always wondered about is,
what effect does a treadmill incline have vs a real hill.

The same, except
(1) the training surface is that of the treadmill, which may be easier or harder than the surface of
the "real hill".
(2) no air resistance
(3) possible heat problems on the treadmill.

Quoted message said:

Seems that on a treadmill the only real extra movement and energy expenditure is simply raising
the leg as you aren't really moving the body up.

[snipped: goofy physics]

Think of the moving frame of reference that is travelling at the same velocity as the treadmill
belt. Think about what gravitational acceleration is with respect to that frame of reference. Is
there anything different about the runner in that frame of reference, as opposed to the runner on a
"real hill", aside from the three points I made above ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<snip a buncha dainty treadmill advice>

Well you certainly are getting your info from an informed, dainty specialist.