Chains and pains

Chuckabutty said:

I bought a more expensive Shimano 7/8 speed chain and was surprised it didn't come with the missing link,

Shimano prefers the use of their special connecting pin, which I consider a tolerable nuisance.
I haven’t had any issues using other brands quick links on Shimano chains.

Chuckabutty said:

I'm thinking that perhaps it's not a good idea to use an old missing link, anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. I can’t remember ever having a quick link actually fail. Eventually they don’t lock as distinctly as before, or become warped from disassembly, at which point I discard them.

I'm surprised at how many people have problems with chains. I have never ever snapped a chain and I run them about 10,000 miles. Shimano and SRAM, both on Shimano systems.

I have had buddies replace chains every 2,000 miles ending up being plenty of problems. And a waste of money IMO.

I replace at about 10, 000 when I can no longer keep it quiet or in fine tune. I hate noise and a rough ride. Then I replace the chain and cogset.

I do use 9 speed and have no desire to go 10. My wife runs 10 and no problems there either but her bike doesn't take as much abuse as my bikes. I do have new chains and cogs standing by for when the time comes.

I read plenty of stories about bad chains, snapped chains but have never.

Snapped frames yes, snapped chains, no! 😄

Dang them steep climbs! 😠[ATTACH=full]3389[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3390[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3391[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3392[/ATTACH]

Mr. Beanz said:

I'm surprised at how many people have problems with chains. I have never ever snapped a chain.....

It’s near enough impossible to snap a chain through brute force.
In a straight pull, they are said to be able to take about one tonne.
You pretty much have to damage the chain first, somehow.
Chainsuck, a badly botched gear change, a poor job of connecting the chain etc.
Once I’ve seen a chain split by a piece of gravel getting pushed in between the sideplates.
So even with indexed gearing, there is an element of skill involved. Someone who knows to ease up on the pedals before shifting, and not to put the hammer down until the chain has settled in the new gear can expect better mileage than someone who shifts a bit any old how.

dabac said:

It’s near enough impossible to snap a chain through brute force.
In a straight pull, they are said to be able to take about one tonne.
You pretty much have to damage the chain first, somehow.
Chainsuck, a badly botched gear change, a poor job of connecting the chain etc.
Once I’ve seen a chain split by a piece of gravel getting pushed in between the sideplates.
So even with indexed gearing, there is an element of skill involved. Someone who knows to ease up on the pedals before shifting, and not to put the hammer down until the chain has settled in the new gear can expect better mileage than someone who shifts a bit any old how.

I agree! I use what I have heard called "transition gears" for years as a method of changing gears. I read it back in 2002 (?)

Meaning I don't change gears in the 2 outer or 2 inner cogs while shifting the front. Keeps a straight chain line and eases the shifting. Keeps the chain from flying off as well. Been working for years so I continue with it.

Also the easing the pedals while shifting.

dabac said:

Shimano prefers the use of their special connecting pin, which I consider a tolerable nuisance.
I haven’t had any issues using other brands quick links on Shimano chains.

If Shimano prefers the use of their own pins, they ought to put one in with the chain. Either this was an accidental omission, or they're saving a few pennies by leaving them out. I had a new link in my tool kit but it was made for a Sram chain. Oddly, the worn chain was a Sram but the old link wouldn't fit the Shimano. I made sure it was clean, but I just couldn't get it to lock in. I've changed a few in my time, and not had any problems.

I found the new Shimano chain had a tendency to crunch a time or two, just in test-riding the bike. I tried adjusting the barrel adjuster both ways, but couldn't get the intermittent crunch out of it, so I put the old chain back on, and I'm now awaiting a new Shimano freewheel.

Mr. Beanz said:

I'm surprised at how many people have problems with chains. I have never ever snapped a chain and I run them about 10,000 miles. Shimano and SRAM, both on Shimano systems.

I had one snap on a new cruiser I'd bought from the LBS. The original chain was worn out at 1,000 miles, so the shop put a new chain and freewheel on it, under warranty. A few months later, the chain snapped. I went back to the shop and bought a new chain. Comparing that chain to the one which snapped, I found the new one was eight inches shorter. So back to the shop I went and said I need a longer chain. The owner then told me that cruisers have a longer frame, and they had to splice a piece of chain on to make it fit. That's when I realized that the piece they spliced on was the piece that snapped off. They pushed the pin in too far.

As far as mileage, I'm pretty careful in changing gears. I like the smooth transition from one cog to the next. Despite this, the Sram chain lasted just over 2,000 miles. What surprised me was the fact that only half of it was badly worn. The Park tool has markings, and Park recommends when it reads .75, then it's time to put a new chain on. Half the chain read just over .5, and the rest of it read 1. All new chains start out with a reading of around .25. Comparing the new Shimano with the old Sram, length for length, there was a half-inch difference due to wear. I suspect that the freewheel cogs are worn or damaged by the old chain, causing the new chain to intermittently crunch as I change gears. Rather than damage the new chain, I put the old one back on until I get the new freewheel.

Incidentally, my fat bike 10-speed chain lasted around 5,500 miles before I replaced it.

Chuckabutty said:

I had one snap on a new cruiser I'd bought from the LBS. The original chain was worn out at 1,000 miles, so the shop put a new chain and freewheel on it, under warranty. A few months later, the chain snapped. I went back to the shop and bought a new chain. Comparing that chain to the one which snapped, I found the new one was eight inches shorter. So back to the shop I went and said I need a longer chain. The owner then told me that cruisers have a longer frame, and they had to splice a piece of chain on to make it fit. That's when I realized that the piece they spliced on was the piece that snapped off. They pushed the pin in too far.

As far as mileage, I'm pretty careful in changing gears. I like the smooth transition from one cog to the next. Despite this, the Sram chain lasted just over 2,000 miles. What surprised me was the fact that only half of it was badly worn. The Park tool has markings, and Park recommends when it reads .75, then it's time to put a new chain on. Half the chain read just over .5, and the rest of it read 1. All new chains start out with a reading of around .25. Comparing the new Shimano with the old Sram, length for length, there was a half-inch difference due to wear. I suspect that the freewheel cogs are worn or damaged by the old chain, causing the new chain to intermittently crunch as I change gears. Rather than damage the new chain, I put the old one back on until I get the new freewheel.

Incidentally, my fat bike 10-speed chain lasted around 5,500 miles before I replaced it.

Ah yes, I don't use a new chain with worn cogs. Also read one should not do so. I did try it once and the chain skipped around. Lesson learned. Pretty much unless I have a serious problem, which I haven't, I use the same cogs and chain till it's time to replace both.

To be honest with you, I don't take my bikes to the shop, haven't for years. Too many bad repairs that result in having to repair their mistakes. Too many broken spokes on wheels after they do their "good service" on my wheels. I even started building my own wheels with much better results.

I have a buddy who is a great mechanic and started his own shop. Only dude I have trusted out of 20+ local shops (So. Calif). If I ever need anything, he is willing to teach me, or anybody who wants to know. Great guy but I only need a repair once every 10 years or so.:p

Mr. Beanz said:

I'm surprised at how many people have problems with chains. I have never ever snapped a chain and I run them about 10,000 miles. Shimano and SRAM, both on Shimano systems.

I have had buddies replace chains every 2,000 miles ending up being plenty of problems. And a waste of money IMO.

I replace at about 10, 000 when I can no longer keep it quiet or in fine tune. I hate noise and a rough ride. Then I replace the chain and cogset.

I do use 9 speed and have no desire to go 10. My wife runs 10 and no problems there either but her bike doesn't take as much abuse as my bikes. I do have new chains and cogs standing by for when the time comes.

I read plenty of stories about bad chains, snapped chains but have never.

Snapped frames yes, snapped chains, no! 😄

Dang them steep climbs! 😠[ATTACH=full]3389[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3390[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3391[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3392[/ATTACH]

Quoted message said:

Those look painful!

Gnufrau said:

>Those look painful!

The most painful part was losing my Lemond Chambery. 🙁 Partial carbon/aluminum. Best ride I have had in 23 years of cycling. Most stable and smooth. Much better than my full carbon Madone.

[ATTACH=full]3396[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3397[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3398[/ATTACH]

I had a chain fail on me once, it was older, and I had had to break a link without using a new pin from Shimano. Without that pin, the side plates do not grab the old pins well. . . I have not used a Shimano chain since. I've been using KMC chains with good results.

Mr. Beanz said:

The most painful part was losing my Lemond Chambery. 🙁 Partial carbon/aluminum. Best ride I have had in 23 years of cycling. Most stable and smooth. Much better than my full carbon Madone.

[ATTACH=full]3396[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3397[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]3398[/ATTACH]

Losing a dear friend (Yes, I mean the bike!) is always painful.

I don't know what I would do if I lost either of my babies:
[ATTACH=full]3399[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=full]3400[/ATTACH]

Those are older images, but they are what I have handy on my computer. . . 😉

Mr. Beanz said:

To be honest with you, I don't take my bikes to the shop, haven't for years. Too many bad repairs that result in having to repair their mistakes. Too many broken spokes on wheels after they do their "good service" on my wheels. I even started building my own wheels with much better results.

I do all my own wrenching work, too. I've had too many problems with just the one shop. That's the shop that added a piece of chain onto a regular chain and it broke off. Over a period of little more than two years, they botched five jobs over three new bikes I'd bought from them. Mostly they were minor things I could easily fix, so I took it in my stride. But new bikes on the shop floor shouldn't need any fixing! The worst problem happened about 15 miles from home when the chain came off the large cog and got jammed between the cog and pie plate. I hurt my hands trying to tug that chain out. On getting it home and putting the bike on the work stand, I found the chain wouldn't go onto the small cog. The limit screws were way out for both high and low limits.

I got irritated, yesterday, when I dug a front derailleur out of my parts box. I bought it nearly two years ago from the same bike shop, and it was intended to go on my el cheapo Schwinn hybrid. The original came loose several miles from home, and the clamp bolt was a piece of junk. I told the LBS owner I need a front derailleur for a triple ring. He pulled one from his display cabinet and said that they'd have some cheaper ones in if I wait. I decided to go with his Shimano Deore XT. That, and a shifter cable cost me $55.53. I set it aside, at home, and figured I'd get to it, later. A few weeks passed before I changed it over. After mounting it, I tried to adjust it but it wouldn't work properly. I could get it to work over the large and center rings, or over the center and small rings, but not over all three. Being less experienced at the time, I put the old one back on, and decided I'd have to learn a bit more. I should have taken the new one back but didn't, thinking it was my lack of experience that was the problem.

The old one has given me no more problems, so I dug this new one out, yesterday, to take another look at it. There is no way that it will work with triple rings. The shop owner - who has been in business since 1979 - knows little about bikes. I caught him out, before, when I told him of one of the botch jobs, and he responded with a bunch of garbage that had nothing to do with what I was telling him. On another occasion, I was asking him some technical questions on a rear axle. He said he'd be happy to answer any questions I had, so I was asking. It was obvious he couldn't answer my question, and in his frustration pushed a book across the counter at me: "This book has every bicycle part available in it. If you can find what you want, let me know!" I didn't bother to look but figured I wouldn't ask him any more questions.

So to add to the five botched jobs, I lost the price of the front derailleur. Experience can come at a high price. I can't think of anything that I can't do on a bike, now. I have a truing stand and a spring tension gauge, and have done good work with them on my Schwinn. And I don't have to keep making the 14-mile round trip to the shop each time. I don't know how other bike shops are but I would find it hard to believe any are as bad as the one I got caught up with. For a business that's been around for nearly 40 years, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Chuckabutty said:

I do all my own wrenching work, too. I've had too many problems with just the one shop. That's the shop that added a piece of chain onto a regular chain and it broke off. Over a period of little more than two years, they botched five jobs over three new bikes I'd bought from them. Mostly they were minor things I could easily fix, so I took it in my stride. But new bikes on the shop floor shouldn't need any fixing!

Makes me think of three things:
1) Language, the ”sense” a word can convey sometimes lead us wrong. Being a pro only mean ”I can live off doing this”, and is only accidentally related to how good someone is at something.
There are people managing on a marginal skillset in nearly every line of business. Which is probably a skill in itself.
Builders to bike mechanics, no trade is safe from klutzes.
2) There isn’t much margin in the customer end of the bike biz.
The better I get at wrenching, the more convinced I become that I wouldn’t be able to make it as a full-time mechanic.
At least not working at the standard I work to at home.
I’d LOVE it if someone were to bring me a bike and say ”fix it as you think it should be fixed and I’ll pay you a reasonable hourly rate for as long as it takes.”
Ask me about my bike-flipping ”adventures” if you want examples.
3)You’re right of course. A bike straight off the showroom floor should be good to go.
But remember those small margins.
The bikes on the floor probably came from someone equally under time/money pressure.
For the shop, Investing 30-45 minutes in checking and setting up a bike before it goes up for sale is basically unpaid work until the bike gets sold.
Also, parts ”settle” in use.
It takes a lot more time finishing a wheel, cutting cable sheaths etc so that you’ll never need to touch them again compared to doing them up ”good, for now” and plan for a later adjustment.

Off the showroom floor reminds me of when we bought my wife's bike. Full carbon Trek, nearly $3,000.

Dude at the shop said to bring it in after 30 days. I told him I build my own bikes, wheels and do my own repairs. He said bring it in anyway. 😉

She rode it a couple hundred miles and I made adjustments. We took it in, they put it up on the rack and the dude said it's great, why did I bring it in? o_O

Dude, I told you but you said bring it in anyway! 😄

dabac said:

...There are people managing on a marginal skillset in nearly every line of business. Which is probably a skill in itself.

That certainly seems to be the case with this particular LBS. They have two mechanics, one of whom seems to be the head mechanic. I once asked them how busy they are, and they said they are loaded down with work. Yet I see the head mechanic most often standing behind the counter, while another guy wanders in and out with a silly grin on his face. When I took the cruiser in to have the gears tuned up under warranty, they set to it, immediately. That doesn't describe someone who is loaded down with work.

This head mechanic has also fed me false information on at least two occasions. "All bike chains are only good for 800 miles." And "All rim brakes [censored]." Something was wrong with the cruiser front wheel. I did as they said and cleaned it with alcohol, and 400 grit paper. Still the brakes suddenly snatched at a certain point on the rim. It was as though there was an indentation in it. I removed the wheel and tire, and ran a micrometer around the rim; it was perfect all the way around. A visual inspection showed nothing. So I went to the shop to order a better wheel set. That's when the mechanic said I'd be wasting my money because "all rim brakes [censored]." I'd had three other bikes with rim brakes, and none of them snatched.

I bought a Sun fat bike from them. It came with a hub gear, but the frame also had a lug for mounting a derailleur. They said they could customize it for $100. When it was done I got it home and found the chain ring was too big. It was suited for the hub gear but not the 7 speed. If I had worked on someone's bike, I'd road test it to see that was good. They didn't think to do that. I think that they had become complacent about bike repairs or setups. It's not the most exciting of jobs, after all.

Quoted post said:

Builders to bike mechanics, no trade is safe from klutzes.

Amen!

Quoted post said:

There isn’t much margin in the customer end of the bike biz.

Somebody else on this forum, some time ago, said that the bike business brings in a lot of money. I've thought about that. There's the rent on the building. Utilities. Wages. Employee taxes and insurance. Stock. Liability insurance. And that's before you start to make enough for yourself. You've got to have a constant stream of business to keep going.

Quoted post said:

The better I get at wrenching, the more convinced I become that I wouldn’t be able to make it as a full-time mechanic.At least not working at the standard I work to at home.

Whatever one's vocation, it's easy to get bored and complacent. As a kid I watched bricklayers rebuilding London after the war. I wanted to be a brickie, so I served a 5 years apprenticeship, and soon grew to hate the trade. The construction trade crashed around 1973 so I managed to get a job as a welder. That was a good trade for the four years I was in it. Then after coming to America in 1978, I couldn't find a welding job, and I didn't want to get back into brickwork, so I took on carpentry and put myself through school to become an electrician. I got my license and set up in business.

Through these things I learned there is no trade in which we're going to be happy and/or content all the time. I'm happy now that I'm retired, and can work on my own bikes. I derive a lot of pleasure from this and knowing the work is done right. So how do I know it's right if I'm an amateur bike mechanic? Well, if the wheels don't fall off after I've cleaned and re-greased the bearings, it must be right. Right? I think fifty years experience of doing much of my own wrenching on my cars, trucks and motorcycles, has put me in a good place to work on bikes.

Quoted post said:

I’d LOVE it if someone were to bring me a bike and say ”fix it as you think it should be fixed and I’ll pay you a reasonable hourly rate for as long as it takes.”
Ask me about my bike-flipping ”adventures” if you want examples.

Heck, I'd be happy to do it for nothing if they buy the parts! Liability is a consideration, though, and even if you know in your heart you did a really good job, they can still sue if something happened and they blame you for it.
Yes, tell me about your bike-flipping adventures!

Quoted post said:

You’re right of course. A bike straight off the showroom floor should be good to go.
But remember those small margins.
The bikes on the floor probably came from someone equally under time/money pressure.

I'm guessing bikes come partly assembled in cardboard boxes from the factory. That's how my Schwinn hybrid came, which I assembled, myself. It took me about an hour, which isn't bad for an amateur who never put one together, before. I would think a bike shop would be familiar with all the things that should be done to ensure a new bike is fit to ride. That means riding it outside for a few hundred yards. I don't know who assembled the 20-speed drive train on my Specialized Fatboy, whether it was the factory or the shop. I can understand the factory doing it, and the shop would then make sure it was adjusted properly. That wasn't done, which led to the chain getting jammed between the large cog and the pie plate. Also, the chain not being able to get onto the smallest cog.

I suggested to the shop owner that he might check each bike which leaves his shop. whether new or repaired. But from what I've learned about him, I don't think he's capable of knowing what to check. He is completely trusting in his mechanics, yet his reputation is at stake. I've bought a lot of tools and accessories from him, but I won't go there, again.

Quoted post said:

For the shop, Investing 30-45 minutes in checking and setting up a bike before it goes up for sale is basically unpaid work until the bike gets sold.

True, but a business should depend on repeat custom for parts, repairs and new bikes. I have wondered if, being that I've had five botched jobs, how many other customers have received defective bikes and repairs. Perhaps I'm just the unlucky one, but I doubt that.

Quoted post said:

Also, parts ”settle” in use.
It takes a lot more time finishing a wheel, cutting cable sheaths etc so that you’ll never need to touch them again compared to doing them up ”good, for now” and plan for a later adjustment.

That is understood, but they can do it right, now, or they will to it right, later. Why not do it right from the beginning?. They always told me to bring the bikes back after a 100 miles or so, for them to check them and make adjustments. But from my experiences with them, I don't know that they'd do things right.

Chuckabutty said:

Somebody else on this forum, some time ago, said that the bike business brings in a lot of money. I've thought about that. There's the rent on the building. Utilities. Wages. Employee taxes and insurance. Stock. Liability insurance. And that's before you start to make enough for yourself. You've got to have a constant stream of business to keep going..

Maybe I should have been more specific. The amount of money there is to be made in the bike biz depends on where you are in the food chain.

Brick-and-mortar shops often struggle. Online sales can do reasonably well. Manufacturers can do fine.
The big money in OTC sales are lifestyle items, and the occasional (high-end) bike.
Gotta match the helmet to the bike. And the outfit to the helmet. And the bike.
Of course you need a new set of water bottles too.
But wait, maybe you don't have time to wash your kit between rides.
So you need another kit. Maybe a club kit too.
Or a charity kit. So you need helmets for those as well.
Then you need a set of shoes for those "Nippy-but-not-yet-cold" rides.
And of course different sunglasses , for all levels of light.
And heaven forbid you'd be seen munching a Snickers bar bought from a gas station as a mid-ride snack. That'd be an insult to your carefully matched kit. You have to have those nutritionally crafted bars at 3 times the cost.

Service and no-bling spare parts are not high earners.

Chuckabutty said:

That certainly seems to be the case with this particular LBS. They have two mechanics, one of whom seems to be the head mechanic. I once asked them how busy they are, and they said they are loaded down with work. Yet I see the head mechanic most often standing behind the counter, while another guy wanders in and out with a silly grin on his face. When I took the cruiser in to have the gears tuned up under warranty, they set to it, immediately. That doesn't describe someone who is loaded down with work.

Sometimes, the people we work the hardest to fool are ourselves.
Nobody has a self-image that's a perfect reflection of reality, but some are farther off than average. If I can convince myself, maintain the facade that business is brisk, it probably feels better going to work in the morning.

Chuckabutty said:

This head mechanic has also fed me false information on at least two occasions. "All bike chains are only good for 800 miles." And "All rim brakes [censored]." Something was wrong with the cruiser front wheel. I did as they said and cleaned it with alcohol, and 400 grit paper. Still the brakes suddenly snatched at a certain point on the rim. It was as though there was an indentation in it. I removed the wheel and tire, and ran a micrometer around the rim; it was perfect all the way around. A visual inspection showed nothing. So I went to the shop to order a better wheel set. That's when the mechanic said I'd be wasting my money because "all rim brakes [censored]." I'd had three other bikes with rim brakes, and none of them snatched.

The chain bit is bull. Chain life varies considerably with rider, ride conditions, and attention to upkeep.
But I don't think I killed chain that fast even during my most enthusiastic, mud-soaked MTB days.
If it was true for my commuter, it'd need a new chain every 5th week...

The rim brake bit is mostly bull. I'd go as far as "all rim brakes CAN [censored]", but that's about it. They don't have to.
Sometimes you can get brake chatter from forks flexing and a stem-mounted cable stop.
But if it was at one defined point of the rim - and new wheels made it disappear, then that's not it.
If it was at the seam of the rim you should have spotted that. And the 400 paper should have reduced it to near enough nothing.

I've thought about how rims are manufactured.
Most aluminum rims are extruded.
This means a lump of aluminium dumped in a chamber and pushed through a die to form the desired profile.
The most rational way to do this is, when the hydraulic piston is at the end of its stroke is to retract the piston, put another lump in and push again.
For most uses, this leaves a "good enough" transition from one lump to another, and means that the extrusion can be cut to whatever length the customer desires with a minimum of spill.
Good engineering practice.
Sometimes you can see the transition zones , they show up as streaks and shadings.
A bit like water marks, runny water colors or the rings around a knothole in wood.
Maybe something like that, a near molecular scale of change in the metal, can cause a spotwise change in friction?

Chuckabutty said:

Whatever one's vocation, it's easy to get bored and complacent. As a kid I watched bricklayers rebuilding London after the war. I wanted to be a brickie, so I served a 5 years apprenticeship, and soon grew to hate the trade. The construction trade crashed around 1973 so I managed to get a job as a welder. That was a good trade for the four years I was in it. Then after coming to America in 1978, I couldn't find a welding job, and I didn't want to get back into brickwork, so I took on carpentry and put myself through school to become an electrician. I got my license and set up in business.

That's quite a varied career. You must be a useful guy to know if you're a homeowner.

Bored is one thing, complacent is another. If boredom was an acceptable cause for doing a poor job, all my dinner plates would by now be several inches thicker due to sloppy dishwashing. And all my teeth would have rotted.
It's a matter of personal integrity and responsibility to do certain things to an acceptable level of results even if it is boring you cross-eyed. At least until you can get away from that task in an acceptable way.

Chuckabutty said:

.. a business should depend on repeat custom for parts, repairs and new bikes. I have wondered if, being that I've had five botched jobs, how many other customers have received defective bikes and repairs. Perhaps I'm just the unlucky one, but I doubt that..

You may simply be the attentive one. On my commute, I see things wrong on other people's bikes just about daily. If it's important enough, or if we're rolling up to a handy intersection, I might try mentioning it: "excuse me, but you haven't done your q/r up righ, and your wheel is about to come off". Or "excuse me, but your brake pad is riding up against the tire sidewall". etc etc. And the usual response is "oh, I hadn't noticed", or at best "so that was where that noise was coming from"

Chuckabutty said:

Yes, tell me about your bike-flipping adventures!

For one reason or another, I've become the bicycle equivalent of the "crazy cat lady" at work. People come to me, ask me to sell their bike for them, or simply give me a bike they no longer have any use for but haven't got the heart to toss.
And while more entertaining that and less mind-rotting than TV, it rarely works out well.
Last subject in was a hybrid with a 7-speed Nexus with a dynohub.
It had a kink in the shifter cable but looked OK otherwise.
Might resell for 70-80 USD.
"Easy flip" I thought.
Started opening the shifter to get the cable out. Noticed the grips were heavily encrusted with - something.
All stop to break out the steel wool and scrub them back to tolerable condition.
Pulled the shifter cable out, replaced the sheath. Reinserted cable
And the little rubber bellows at the cable exit crumbled.
All stop for finding a replacement for that.
A bellows from a brake noodle worked out OK.
Went to hook the shifter back up, noticed "waait a minute, this thing is seriously gunked up here".
All stop for pulling the wheel off, and introducing the sprocket to a brass wire brush.
Put the wheel back in, hooked up the shifter.
Lubed and wiped down the chain.
Brushed the chainring.
"Hey, that chainguard and crank arm is looking seriously matted. I can't part with a bike looking like that."
All stop for the jar of yacht-grade rubbing compound to be found and liberally applied.
"Waait a minute, that's the registry label of the original owner. The subscription has lapsed, it's worthless. It'll have to come off".
All stop for heat gun, wooden spatula and some solvents to be applied. Done.
Move on to the front of the bike.
Light didn't work.
All stop to break out the electrical tools. Good output from the dynohub. Nothing at the light.
Took the connector apart. Corrosion.
Cut a good bit off the cable. Still corrosion.
All stop while finding a new cable.
Ran new cable through the fork. Struck by thoughts.
1) shouldn't there be rubber grommets at cable inlet and exit?
2) wouldn't it look cleaner if I routed the cable out through the "weep hole" at the INSIDE face of the fork leg?
All stop while scrounging for grommets and a slight rerouting.
All stop for finding a plug for the now empty hole on the fork outside.
Light still not working.
Pulled lamp apart. "Waait a minute. Despite having two leads from hub to lamp, they expect me to route the return through that exposed, multi-part mounting bracket? I'm not adding that extra resistance to any lighting circuit of mine."
All stop while figuring out a new path into the lamp socket, and soldering on the cable.
Spun wheel, lights. Yay.
While looking at the front end, I noticed that the "stirrup", the cable stop at the brake arm for the V-brake was crooked and beginning to split.
All stop while finding another brake.
Time to test ride, went to adjust saddle. Seat post badly scoured from burr inside seat tube.
All stop while finding reamer. Clean out seat tube. Swapped in less ugly seat post.

So, while the parts cost for this was minimal, the bike ended up costing me 3+ hours before I was ready to part with it. By that it's almost fully serviced(didn't do the headset), lubed, cleaned and polished and ready to ride.
The saving grace this time was that I could keep tires, tubes and chain.
Had I had to replace that, economy as well as time had gone entirely out the window for this flip.

Still more satisfying than an evening on the couch, but I'm certainly not quitting my day job.
Unless I make a point of telling them, no one but me will notice that this bike has a better-than-original cable, cable routing and light hook-up. Or the improved seat post install. or anyof the other minor tweaks and fixes it received. Some might notice the polish.

dabac said:

...Gotta match the helmet to the bike. And the outfit to the helmet. And the bike.
Of course you need a new set of water bottles too.
But wait, maybe you don't have time to wash your kit between rides.
So you need another kit. Maybe a club kit too.
Or a charity kit. So you need helmets for those as well.
Then you need a set of shoes for those "Nippy-but-not-yet-cold" rides.
And of course different sunglasses , for all levels of light.
And heaven forbid you'd be seen munching a Snickers bar bought from a gas station as a mid-ride snack. That'd be an insult to your carefully matched kit. You have to have those nutritionally crafted bars at 3 times the cost.

Yes, they were very good salesmen! Made me feel like a king when I was buying three new bikes from them, including a Specialized helmet to go with my Specialized Fatboy. I'm not into any of the fancy stuff but I did spend a small fortune on accessories and tools. Oh, and I took them a 24-case of beer in after seeing it recommended in a bike magazine. That griped me a little as I began to see how things were turning out.

Quoted post said:

The chain bit is bull. Chain life varies considerably with rider, ride conditions, and attention to upkeep.
But I don't think I killed chain that fast even during my most enthusiastic, mud-soaked MTB days.
If it was true for my commuter, it'd need a new chain every 5th week...

I figured that out when I began to see how long the chains were lasting. My Fatboy 10-speed chain was good for around 5,000 miles. Remembering what he'd said about the life of chains, I began to wonder how good of a mechanic he was.

Quoted post said:

The rim brake bit is mostly bull. I'd go as far as "all rim brakes CAN [censored]", but that's about it. They don't have to.
Sometimes you can get brake chatter from forks flexing and a stem-mounted cable stop.
But if it was at one defined point of the rim - and new wheels made it disappear, then that's not it.
If it was at the seam of the rim you should have spotted that. And the 400 paper should have reduced it to near enough nothing.

The front brake didn't [censored] as it engaged. If I wasn't braking hard but just slowing down, there was a spot on the rim that suddenly grabbed each time it came around. I fitted new rim brakes that use replaceable pads, and toed them in, and it didn't help. After careful measuring all the way around, and finding nothing that could be seen with the naked eye, I suspected that there might be a flaw in the metal.

I went into the shop to buy a new wheel set, and the mechanic was explaining why I didn't need them. He went into technical details about the rim and I was trying to learn from him. I tried to ask him a question: "The tire size says..." and that's when he snapped at me: "I don't care what it says!" He didn't even let me finish asking the question. I was so stunned at his outburst that I turned to the shop owner and asked him to order the wheels. It cured the problem.

He snapped at me on a second occasion, and that finished me with that business. In February 2017 I ordered more replaceable pad rim brakes for my hybrid, . They said they'd call when they came in. In May, I was riding near the shop and decided to stop and see if there was any news on the brakes. The mechanic was stood on the showroom floor so I went up to him and said, "Any news on my rim brakes?" He turned his back on me, threw his left arm up in the air, and snapped: "We'll call you when they come in!" He then went quickly into the workshop area, leaving me standing there, stunned, and wondering what the heck that was all about. I left the shop, very upset, and decided I wouldn't ask again, I'd just wait until they call. October came around and still no call, so I bought them online.

Then this past summer, I got a Facebook notice to tell me that a woman had given them a review on their Facebook page. It was a glowing review, even mentioning how kind the mechanic was... nothing was too much trouble for him. I then saw that my positive review from when I bought my first bike from them, was still up there. I deleted it, along with all the bike photos I'd posted on their page. I guess they would notice that and perhaps wonder what was wrong. I could have posted negative reviews on Yelp or Google but decided not to do that.

Overall, it took 2 1/2 years of dealing with them to realize I didn't need them for anything. Bad mechanical work, bad advice, a bad-tempered mechanic, failure to obtain parts, and failure to have any kind of quality control were things I had no use for.

Quoted post said:

Sometimes you can see the transition zones , they show up as streaks and shadings.
A bit like water marks, runny water colors or the rings around a knothole in wood.
Maybe something like that, a near molecular scale of change in the metal, can cause a spotwise change in friction?

I looked for such a thing but it looked perfect all the way around. I even squeezed the rim all the way around to see if there was a soft spot. Nothing! Just a mystery.

Quoted post said:

You may simply be the attentive one. On my commute, I see things wrong on other people's bikes just about daily. If it's important enough, or if we're rolling up to a handy intersection, I might try mentioning it: "excuse me, but you haven't done your q/r up righ, and your wheel is about to come off". Or "excuse me, but your brake pad is riding up against the tire sidewall". etc etc. And the usual response is "oh, I hadn't noticed", or at best "so that was where that noise was coming from"

"Attentive one." I like that! I will acknowledge that perfectionism is one of my faults. I had almost finished wiring a new house when the electrical inspector came in and checked it out. He said to me, "Do you run a level up all your wires? Everything is so perfect!" I was pleased, but after he left I realized that it wasn't standard for the trade. Still, I couldn't downgrade my work to a lesser standard. Another contractor saw my work and said it's not practical in the field to be so perfect. It can be an annoying fault to see imperfection in all kinds of things, but in the case of the bikes, it was worse than imperfection.

dabac said:

For one reason or another, I've become the bicycle equivalent of the "crazy cat lady" at work. People come to me, ask me to sell their bike for them, or simply give me a bike they no longer have any use for but haven't got the heart to toss.
And while more entertaining that and less mind-rotting than TV, it rarely works out well.
Last subject in was a hybrid with a 7-speed Nexus with a dynohub.
It had a kink in the shifter cable but looked OK otherwise.
Might resell for 70-80 USD.
"Easy flip" I thought.
Started opening the shifter to get the cable out. Noticed the grips were heavily encrusted with - something.
All stop to break out the steel wool and scrub them back to tolerable condition.
Pulled the shifter cable out, replaced the sheath. Reinserted cable
And the little rubber bellows at the cable exit crumbled.
All stop for finding a replacement for that.
A bellows from a brake noodle worked out OK.
Went to hook the shifter back up, noticed "waait a minute, this thing is seriously gunked up here".
All stop for pulling the wheel off, and introducing the sprocket to a brass wire brush.
Put the wheel back in, hooked up the shifter.
Lubed and wiped down the chain.
Brushed the chainring.
"Hey, that chainguard and crank arm is looking seriously matted. I can't part with a bike looking like that."
All stop for the jar of yacht-grade rubbing compound to be found and liberally applied.
"Waait a minute, that's the registry label of the original owner. The subscription has lapsed, it's worthless. It'll have to come off".
All stop for heat gun, wooden spatula and some solvents to be applied. Done.
Move on to the front of the bike.
Light didn't work.
All stop to break out the electrical tools. Good output from the dynohub. Nothing at the light.
Took the connector apart. Corrosion.
Cut a good bit off the cable. Still corrosion.
All stop while finding a new cable.
Ran new cable through the fork. Struck by thoughts.
1) shouldn't there be rubber grommets at cable inlet and exit?
2) wouldn't it look cleaner if I routed the cable out through the "weep hole" at the INSIDE face of the fork leg?
All stop while scrounging for grommets and a slight rerouting.
All stop for finding a plug for the now empty hole on the fork outside.
Light still not working.
Pulled lamp apart. "Waait a minute. Despite having two leads from hub to lamp, they expect me to route the return through that exposed, multi-part mounting bracket? I'm not adding that extra resistance to any lighting circuit of mine."
All stop while figuring out a new path into the lamp socket, and soldering on the cable.
Spun wheel, lights. Yay.
While looking at the front end, I noticed that the "stirrup", the cable stop at the brake arm for the V-brake was crooked and beginning to split.
All stop while finding another brake.
Time to test ride, went to adjust saddle. Seat post badly scoured from burr inside seat tube.
All stop while finding reamer. Clean out seat tube. Swapped in less ugly seat post.

So, while the parts cost for this was minimal, the bike ended up costing me 3+ hours before I was ready to part with it. By that it's almost fully serviced(didn't do the headset), lubed, cleaned and polished and ready to ride.
The saving grace this time was that I could keep tires, tubes and chain.
Had I had to replace that, economy as well as time had gone entirely out the window for this flip.

Still more satisfying than an evening on the couch, but I'm certainly not quitting my day job.
Unless I make a point of telling them, no one but me will notice that this bike has a better-than-original cable, cable routing and light hook-up. Or the improved seat post install. or anyof the other minor tweaks and fixes it received. Some might notice the polish.

Wow! When you've spent time on such a wreck, and think you're getting somewhere, then you find more stuff that needs to be fixed, it's too late to stop. You've got to keep going or you've wasted the time you already put in.

One of my neighbors left a bike outside with a "Free" sign on it, so I took it home. Cleaned it up, trued the wheels, inflated the tires, and found the hub gear was shot. The bike was the cheapest of the cheap when it was new, so hardly worth the expense of putting another hub gear in. Got my Sawzall out, put a metal blade in it, and chopped the bike up and recycled the metal.