First road bike

For a first road bike I would suggest you buy an older Raleigh Record or Super Course. These do not climb as fast as the lighter carbon bikes but they DO build up leg strength which you should be concerned about in a first bike. There are some very good examples of these on Ebay or I suppose you have the equivalent of Craigslist where you are.

I hope you do other type of riding or running because if you're not involved in any form of physical activity then spending that much money for a first time bike for a new hobby is expensive, most first time bikers, or gym joiners, or those that buy gym equipment for the house do the activity for about 3 to 6 months and then give up which means all that expensive stuff they bought becomes garage art for the next 20 years.

Of those two bikes you should ride both to see which feels best to you, on looks alone the Defy Advance looks like it should be the most comfortable due to the bit longer wheelbase over the TCR.

The TCR is a proper road racing bike. It has a longer and lower rider position than the Defy, which is aimed more at the so-called 'endurance' rider market. Compare the reach, stack and head tube lengths in your frame size to see the differences.

As stated above, the wheelbase differences will also influence ride and handling qualities.

The TCR series would be the line more built for speed and climbing prowess. This is not to say the Defy line are slugs, it's just that they are not full on racing bikes and are designed to sacrifice a little speed and handling for comfort.

The choice between the two depends on where you want your riding style to take you. Your health, flexibility, age, conditioning, ambitions and goals in the sport need to be carefully considered.

'All day comfort in the saddle' is relative. At 63 I can ride 150 miles on a stiff pro level racing bike over poor roads and shower up and take the wife out shopping and to dinner afterwards...no big deal. It takes training to do that, but it's nothing anyone in decent health can't accomplish. The next guy might whine up a storm after doing 50 miles on a smooth bike path and calling that 'all day' in the saddle on a relaxed geometry hybrid design.

Choose carefully the direction you want your riding to go.

Just because one bike has a slightly longer wheel base doesn't mean it's going to be, for example, 1 mph slower. Besides comfort, the difference between the two is going to be mostly in handling, but the difference is so slight that unless your racing down steep twisting mountain roads you'll probably never notice it! A longer wheelbase makes the bike more stable in return for a slight loss in high speed maneuvering. The only two times that one bike will be a tad faster than the other is full on max watts out of the saddle sprinting like racing toward the finish line during a race, and climbing prowess while hammering up a mountain road will be slightly hampered with a longer wheelbase but again not something that unless you're racing is going to be a noticeable problem; the only other thing holding back one bike vs another (besides the engine) is the weight of the bike and to a lesser degree aerodynamics (which this effect increases as the speed increases). One bike isn't going to be worth more than 1 minute of speed over the course of 100 miles unless you're doing a lot of climbing, fast descents and racing.

In other words, unless you're racing the only thing you're going to notice at the end of a day of riding is comfort!

You're right. It's hard to believe they even manufacture both models.

The first thing that I would do is take both models out for a test ride. I've never purchased a bike without taking it out, and I've taken bikes for tests for a complete weekend. That amount of time might not be possible for you, but do some sort of ride on each.
Even if you have 2 people of the same measurements doesn't mean they will select the same bike. Feel is very important, I have many cycling friends that ride a certain brand bike, and after trying out that brand I just never liked it's feel.
I wish you the best and welcome to the great sport of cycling.

simonc73 said:

I have 1500 pounds to spend on my first road bike and have narrowed it down to 2 bikes from Giant. The TCR Adv 1 or Defy Adv 1?

I'm looking for a light weight bike, good for the hills and mountains but also comfortable enough to spend a day in the saddle.

Simon - you seem to be getting some pretty bizarre advice. If this is your first road bike how the hell would you know what "feel" is?

Contrary to what some people have been posting recently in other strings, there has been little change in bicycles in the last 50 years. And road bikes feel like [censored] until you get used to the position on them. Then you have to find a saddle that properly fits you and you'll be walking around bow-legged until you do. Then until you get enough miles on it you'll be scared to ride it because you're so worn out after a ride. Then after you get over that you'll be scared to climb hills. And then when that goes away you'll be scared of long distances with climbing. Your back will hurt, your neck will hurt and your legs will hurt. And that will all go away - and if you took up jogging it would be a great deal worse plus you could wreck your knees.

ALL of that ends believe it or not. Get the proper size bike with the proper width handlebars. the correct length of stem and a saddle that can support you through your sit bones but doesn't rub the inside of your thighs when you're riding.

Brake/shifter combinations are nice but down-tube shifters have the advantage that they discourage you from shifting too much and help you develop more power in your pedal stroke. They also improve your balance since you have to bend over and reach down to shift.

New bikes are not a good thing for new riders. And you can get a very nice used Raleigh that will break you in properly for less than a quarter of your budget. The correct size is one that gives your crotch about an inch of clearance while standing over the top tube. One that says "Reynolds Tubing" on it is a good bike.

What Campy Bob and I have told you is correct and not bizarre. If you test ride a bike it will become evident that one will be a tad more comfortable to you. Of course you can't go out and ride it 200 miles on the first day of owning it and say gee I'm ready to go another 200 miles because it felt so good, of course you have to work up to it and improve your strength along the way as you would do with anything. If you use to be a runner I bet you could try on shoes and figure out which one was the most comfortable feeling to you, then you bought them and ran and probably got either some blisters or hot feet until you broke them in. When I first bought my first bike I tried a bunch till I found one that felt better than the others and bought that bike, and guess what? I couldn't ride it 100 miles that first day without being taken to the ER! LOL!!

You can have the bike shop make sure the saddle that's on the bike will fit you by having your set bones measured, the LBS will make sure you have the right stem height and length, and the right size bike along with the seat at the right position if the LBS is a half way decent one, but even if you didn't do all of that you would not walk around bow legged, people buy bikes all the time used, or at Walmart, etc and I've never seen someone walk bow legged afterwards, so put those fears to rest.

The downtube (DT) shifting thing is another all BS thing, I'm not saying down tube shifters are bad because I've used them for 40 years and still have them, but I also have brake shifters (known as briftors), and from riding both I can tell you that an first time rider is better off with briftors than to figure out how to take down one hand feel for the lever and shift it, for me it's an automatic thing but for newbies not so much, the briftor will have a more natural feel of operation. And Cyclntom is off track, he probably doesn't ride much, but shifting gears today is more about trying to maintain a certain level of pedal speed known as cadence which is why today we have 9, 10, and 11 speed gear clusters in the back vs 5, 6, and 7 thus we do have more gears to play with in the middle ranges to maintain a certain level of cadence better than the old days, not that I can't live without all those gears because I rode 40 years with less gears, it just makes it a tad easier.

Cyclintom did bring up a good point about used bikes which is why I asked if you had done any other type of sport before and why I mentioned buying a new bike and riding it for 3 to 6 months could be waste of a lot of money. If this is your first rodeo at anything called exercise, then you need to consider a used bike starting out and invest about $200 to $300 dollars to make sure you are going to like the sport. After you've been riding for a couple of years religiously then you can look at getting a better bike. The one inch space between the top bar, if it's an old school bike with the level top par, while you stand flat footed on the pavement is a good rule of thumb but there is some leeway from 3/4 of an inch to 2 inches, but the reason for the extra range is because the length of the top tube is more important not the height, the height just gets you into the ball park. The top tube length while sitting on the bike should allow you to reach the handlebars comfortable with a slight (15 degrees) bend at the elbows, if your arms are straight out and locked the bike is too big, if your arms are bent much more than 15 degrees then your body is too cramped and you need a larger bike. Also once you get the seat set at the correct height your leg should be fully extended at the 6 o'clock position when the heel is placed on the lower pedal, this means when you pedal normally with your ball of your foot you'll have a slight bend at the knee.

You can get a bike to fit you without going to a fitter and paying big bucks if you get on the internet and google sites that discuss bike fitting, sites like this: http://www.ebicycles.com/article/determining-your-bicycle-saddle-height.html OR this: http://www.bikefit.com/s-13-road-bikes.aspx

It's funny that Cyclintom goes through all that size stuff but says to buy used which most bike shops don't sell used bikes so how are you going to know if it fits without advice on how to make sure it fits?

By the way, neither I nor people I've ever known were scared to ride up mountains or long rides or whatever other nonsense that entails the word FEAR, you may not be in shape to climb mountains right away but you will be.

Froze said:

What Campy Bob and I have told you is correct and not bizarre. If you test ride a bike it will become evident that one will be a tad more comfortable to you. Of course you can't go out and ride it 200 miles on the first day of owning it and say gee I'm ready to go another 200 miles because it felt so good, of course you have to work up to it and improve your strength along the way as you would do with anything. If you use to be a runner I bet you could try on shoes and figure out which one was the most comfortable feeling to you, then you bought them and ran and probably got either some blisters or hot feet until you broke them in. When I first bought my first bike I tried a bunch till I found one that felt better than the others and bought that bike, and guess what? I couldn't ride it 100 miles that first day without being taken to the ER! LOL!!

You can have the bike shop make sure the saddle that's on the bike will fit you by having your set bones measured, the LBS will make sure you have the right stem height and length, and the right size bike along with the seat at the right position if the LBS is a half way decent one, but even if you didn't do all of that you would not walk around bow legged, people buy bikes all the time used, or at Walmart, etc and I've never seen someone walk bow legged afterwards, so put those fears to rest.

The downtube (DT) shifting thing is another all BS thing, I'm not saying down tube shifters are bad because I've used them for 40 years and still have them, but I also have brake shifters (known as briftors), and from riding both I can tell you that an first time rider is better off with briftors than to figure out how to take down one hand feel for the lever and shift it, for me it's an automatic thing but for newbies not so much, the briftor will have a more natural feel of operation. And Cyclntom is off track, he probably doesn't ride much, but shifting gears today is more about trying to maintain a certain level of pedal speed known as cadence which is why today we have 9, 10, and 11 speed gear clusters in the back vs 5, 6, and 7 thus we do have more gears to play with in the middle ranges to maintain a certain level of cadence better than the old days, not that I can't live without all those gears because I rode 40 years with less gears, it just makes it a tad easier.

Cyclintom did bring up a good point about used bikes which is why I asked if you had done any other type of sport before and why I mentioned buying a new bike and riding it for 3 to 6 months could be waste of a lot of money. If this is your first rodeo at anything called exercise, then you need to consider a used bike starting out and invest about $200 to $300 dollars to make sure you are going to like the sport. After you've been riding for a couple of years religiously then you can look at getting a better bike. The one inch space between the top bar, if it's an old school bike with the level top par, while you stand flat footed on the pavement is a good rule of thumb but there is some leeway from 3/4 of an inch to 2 inches, but the reason for the extra range is because the length of the top tube is more important not the height, the height just gets you into the ball park. The top tube length while sitting on the bike should allow you to reach the handlebars comfortable with a slight (15 degrees) bend at the elbows, if your arms are straight out and locked the bike is too big, if your arms are bent much more than 15 degrees then your body is too cramped and you need a larger bike. Also once you get the seat set at the correct height your leg should be fully extended at the 6 o'clock position when the heel is placed on the lower pedal, this means when you pedal normally with your ball of your foot you'll have a slight bend at the knee.

You can get a bike to fit you without going to a fitter and paying big bucks if you get on the internet and google sites that discuss bike fitting, sites like this: http://www.ebicycles.com/article/determining-your-bicycle-saddle-height.html OR this: http://www.bikefit.com/s-13-road-bikes.aspx

It's funny that Cyclintom goes through all that size stuff but says to buy used which most bike shops don't sell used bikes so how are you going to know if it fits without advice on how to make sure it fits?

By the way, neither I nor people I've ever known were scared to ride up mountains or long rides or whatever other nonsense that entails the word FEAR, you may not be in shape to climb mountains right away but you will be.

Pardon me, but you and Campybob are approaching this as seasoned experts and simon is a complete newby that has already gotten bad advice probably from stupid magazines to buy not only a new bike but a carbon fiber bike which will drive his crotch into his neck.

You and I and Bob know when to lift off of the saddle because of a bump because of the rigidity of a carbon fiber bike but that takes a long time to learn for a beginner.

My wife was a very experienced rider and she and two of her daughters rode coast to coast and then she hasn't ridden for 15 years and it's taken her 3 months not to be totally exhausted from a 20 mile flat ride.

I can remember that when I was learning to climb I had to stop every 100 yards. Going up a local climb recently I recognized every single pull off on the road. Think about that when you're giving advice to a beginner that is technically correct but practically impossible.

cyclintom said:

Pardon me, but you and Campybob are approaching this as seasoned experts and simon is a complete newby

Hang on Tom!

I posted:
"The choice between the two depends on where you want your riding style to take you. Your health, flexibility, age, conditioning, ambitions and goals in the sport need to be carefully considered.

'All day comfort in the saddle' is relative. At 63 I can ride 150 miles on a stiff pro level racing bike over poor roads and shower up and take the wife out shopping and to dinner afterwards...no big deal. It takes training to do that, but it's nothing anyone in decent health can't accomplish. The next guy might whine up a storm after doing 50 miles on a smooth bike path and calling that 'all day' in the saddle on a relaxed geometry hybrid design.

Choose carefully the direction you want your riding to go."

Most bike shops are going to get the OP 'close enough' on fit to get rolling regardless of whether he goes with the Defy comfort road bike or the more speed oriented TCR. Thus the highlighting of the distinct differences in geometries and the fit they yield. And the fit they yield affects far more than comfort. I, among many, do not find full blown racing bikes to be anything near 'uncomfortable' despite life having hammered the [censored] out of me for 63 years and having had polio and a blown out spine. And despite the fact out roads are in just plain craptastic stooped awful condition.

And the OP has posed his choices very clearly. Maybe he knows little of fit, but he has done at least some research and he also knows he is going to be climbing and riding long rides...just sayin'!

Unlike Froze, I do subscribe to the fact that there is a fairly wide performance gap in comfort bikes or endurance bikes or gran fondo bikes or whatever the catalogs call them this season vs. a genuine racing bike. I know that EVERY mile on a fondo machine will require more Watts (less efficient) if for no other reason than the generic position it puts the most unaerodynamic component on the bike in...the rider. Also, I sure don't want to ride unaero dico brakes or haul them up any large hills.

One minute advantage over 100 miles??? My skinny white ass!

Now, can an endurance frame be set up close to a racing frame? Sure it can. But, why the Hell start at 'Z' to get to 'A'? Just buy the racing machine and be done with it.

In other words...my last comment about 'why' companies build both went right over heads...

Individual molds at $10,000 to $40,000 per mold times 4 or 5 molds in a size range plus all the feature changes and layup and angles and lengths and carbon schedules and components to get...'comfort' or 'qone minute over 100 miles'. Sorry. I don't buy it.

My advice stands.

The OP must decide where he's headed.

If it's speed and hanging with the other dogs in the pack and if he is of good health and looking to get fit, fast and train for life, the TCR is the one I recommend.

If doing long rides up the bike path, rails-to-trails outing and the odd 100-mile charity ride with slightly more 'comfort'...go for the Defy. And in all honesty, someone has got to tell the OP that 'comfort' bikes do not cure sore asses. They often accentuate the problem by positioning the rider to carry more weight on his ass. Neither do they cure blown legs, tired shoulders, hot spots on the feet or any of the other pain and suffering associated with cycling.

Only training and time in the saddle, as Tom pointed out, will cure those REGARDLESS of which model is selected.

OP: Mull it all over. Decide WHERE you want cycling to take you. The journey involves far more than mere miles. Good luck!

Hmmm, well you trained wrong, you're not suppose to climb 100 yards-stop and rest-then climb 100 yards and stop, rest and repeat. You're suppose to increase your distance and intensity about 10% each week, so instead of me pounding endlessly on a keyboard to try to explain this see this instead: http://www.kintera.org/htmlcontent.asp?cid=54755 Since I use to train other people back in the day I would add or substract weeks from the a similar chart as the one I showed based on their physical abilities, that chart is basically unchanged from the one we had back in the 70's and 80's. Now since I've shown you a chart you can now tell that your wife didn't train correctly either, she just got on and went 20 miles and was totally exhausted which a person is not suppose to be totally exhausted after a ride.

Here's a little secret, every once in awhile I still give that century training chart and add or subtract weeks according to a person physical abilities and how far their goal is as relayed onto me privately here on this forum and other forums by using the PMing system as well as to people I run into that know I ride and want to start riding again or do better. Is there more to training then that chart? of course, but that gets a person started, I tell them we can talk about computers with cadence, HRM's and interval stuff whenever they're ready, but you don't push a beginner too much due to the high possibility of burnout, so it's mostly initially about base miles and encouragement (which is difficult to do on the internet but I try). All the other technical aspects to training comes later when they're ready including trying to join a riding club. I'm not a great rider anymore myself due mostly to time and seasonal changes I now have that I didn't have when I was California, and I hate training indoors but this winter that's going to change for the first time in 11 years because I found a indoor group cycling computer training place I'm going to sign up for so I won't be getting that spring yuk of having to retrain all over again, but I still know how to train others to get them to a certain level, and if they want to go beyond that then I turn them over to a cycling club where people will motivate each other.

And as far as raising your rump over a bump we all did that back in the day of steel bikes, which I still have quite a few, and then aluminum as I do now with titanium, so not sure why that's any more special because you're on a CF bike. To stay seated on any road bike or rigid mountain bike is keister suicide, heck even when I use to have suspension mtb we still raised up off the seat on bumps.

Simon has not reported back to us what his physical experience is, so I'm not going to throw him into a complete exercise newbie, he could be a marathon runner, or a person who swims 5 miles a day, we don't know, while he may be new on a road bike but maybe he's a enduro rider and this is his first foray into the world of road bikes, he hasn't told us so I'm not going to lump him into the newbie class until he tells his a complete newbie at anything because doing so could be insulting him if he has other experiences.

At least he knows his budget, has narrowed his choices and knows a little about the terrain and distance he wants to tackle...a good start.

And yeah, getting your ass off the saddle for bumps is kind of intuitive. Who sits after hitting their xx hard jolt???

Bob I think you're getting mixed up between weight and geometry, a bike with the two slightly different geometries as the poster mentioned is not going to gain you hardly any watts, if you're lucky maybe 1 watt, you could gain 8 times the wattage going to light weight tires and latex tubes; you could gain upwards of 25 watts by improving the riders position but to maximize that you would need wind tunnel testing to tweak; even shaving your legs could get you more wattage than the differences between those two bikes, among other things like aero helmets, lightweight aero wheels (which are ghastly expensive), aero bike frame, shoe covers, form fitting kit, aero bottles, etc.

Most of the watts saved on those two bikes is the fact that TCR will force a rider to be more into an aero body position, not from the slightly longer wheel stance. And there is a chance that the Defy maybe a bit faster because it appears from the photos that it has more aerodynamic rims then the TCR, but perhaps the disk brakes ruins that advantage. But there isn't any test results to prove or disprove what I've said. I know locally there are a couple of guys that race on the Defy Advance and it's doesn't seem to slow them down any, so I doubt that it suffers in efficiency.

But all this blah blah blah doesn't mean squat if one is not as comfortable as the other based on the riders perceptions.

CAMPYBOB said:

And yeah, getting your ass off the saddle for bumps is kind of intuitive. Who sits after hitting their xx hard jolt???

someone with a very hard ass and spine.

Froze said:

Most of the watts saved on those two bikes is the fact that TCR will force a rider to be more into an aero body position,

That's what I've been saying.

"The TCR is a proper road racing bike. It has a longer and lower rider position than the Defy, which is aimed more at the so-called 'endurance' rider market."

"I know that EVERY mile on a fondo machine will require more Watts (less efficient) if for no other reason than the generic position it puts the most unaerodynamic component on the bike in...the rider. Also, I sure don't want to ride unaero dico brakes or haul them up any large hills."

EVERY mile on the TCR will be more efficient, using less Watts for the same speed or more speed for the same Watts. And the faster and/or longer the riders goes the more that difference becomes apparent and the more it matters.

I think we agree the TCR is the better climber. By far. Unless you enjoy hauling disc brakes up mountains. And its shorter and stiffer attributes add some climbing prowess as does that overall weight thing.

I said from the get-go that the Defy was no slug. But it's NOT a TCR. Giant, and most other manufacturers, build racing bikes and they build comfort/endurance/gran fondo/whatever bikes for a reason. They are distinctly different machines.

These are a very important concerns for newbie or an experienced rider. Ones I would hope the bike shop would explain in detail to the prospective purchaser.

And thus 'why' I explained in great detail the questions the OP must ask of himself before deciding on which model he wants or needs.

I agree with Zipp and Tom both on a test ride(s). A decent length ride on both bikes would be nice. As Tom said though...'what' experience does the OP have to compare except one completely new experience on bike 'A' to another completely new experience on bike 'B'? The test ride could be an eye opener or result in little being gained. Still, I'm all for doing it. It costs nothing but time.

On the subject of test rides if you read my first post I said to the op to test ride each, so we all agree with each other on that subject.