question on front crawl

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand was beside his chest. I thought there was an
additional part to this stroke---the follow through back towards the hip before the hand came out.
His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was he just sprinting? Is this
a race tactic that I as more of a distance swimmer should ignore?

Pat in TX

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

If there's one thing that I have learned from this newsgroup, it is that world-class swimmers can
and do break the "rules" of the strokes. Elbow up, elbow down, unbalanced roll, head up, head down--
they can break the recommended ways to swim because of their sheer talent. So, in this case, I would
prefer to learn what is recommended instead of what is exceptional.

Pat in TX

this isn't directly related to your question, but i have my swimmers swim that "stroke" while
warming up at meets, and also for swimmers with shoulder problems when warming up. i heard that
brooke bennet uses a similar drill for warming up...reall short fast strokes, exiting half-way
through the propulsive phase.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand was beside his chest. I thought there was an
additional part to this stroke---the follow through back towards the hip before the hand came out.
His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was he just sprinting? Is this
a race tactic that I as more of a distance swimmer should ignore?

Pat in TX

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand

was

Quoted message said:

beside his chest. I thought there was an additional part to this stroke---the follow through
back towards the hip before the hand came

out.

Quoted message said:

His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was

he

Quoted message said:

just sprinting? Is this a race tactic that I as more of a distance

swimmer

Quoted message said:

should ignore?

Pat in TX

did you notice the position of hios elbows? Were they high? Sounds like it may have been some sort
of a stroke drill designed to over emphisize high elbows.

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51>...

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand was beside his chest. I thought there was an
additional part to this stroke---the follow through back towards the hip before the hand came
out. His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was he just sprinting?
Is this a race tactic that I as more of a distance swimmer should ignore?

Pat in TX

This guys stroke sounds like it's very clipped at the end.

But the question you are posing has never been answered definitively answered by the swimming
community.

That is, the question of how much to straighten out your arm at the end of the stroke. Maglischo in
his book, "Swimming Fastest", says the elbow should remain fairly bent. That's because otherwise you
will be pushing lots of water up with your forearm, which will sink your body and cause more drag.
Only a little bit of water will be going backward. Probably the best video of that on Donald's site
is Tom Dolan. Thorpe certainly swims that way as well.

However, there are certainly plenty of swimmers at the elite level who don't do that. And you can
find some of them on Donald Graft's site, as he indicates. Phelps immediately comes to mind as a
swimmer who DOES nearly straighten out his arm almost completely at the end of the stroke while
flexing his wrist so that his hand is pushing nearly backwards at the end of the stroke. I believe
you will find this style much more prevalent among women than men.

So there's no answer. Experiment yourself with the finish of your stroke and decide what you think
works best for you.

Eric

In stroke drills and in practice it seemed that most of the power of the crawl stroke occurs when
your hand hits your chest level. Everything after that is just hydrodynamics and trying to get your
hand out of the water and to the next stroke as efficiently as possible. This might explain the
different techniques you are describing.

Two great, and very different, examples are Gary Hall, Jr.'s stroke as compared to Janet Evans.
Janet swam with almost a straight arm approach whereas Gary seemed to bend at the elbow and reach a
bit farther forward with each stroke.

I used to swim at Gary's pool and spoke with him a few times about his great technique, though we
were drinking at the time! he he.

Kind Regards, Nathaniel
--
flikWORLD Design reply to: nat at flikworld(dot)com

in article [email hidden], 4precious at [email hidden] wrote
on 1/4/04 1:03 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51>...

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand was beside his chest. I thought there was an
additional part to this stroke---the follow through back towards the hip before the hand came
out. His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was he just sprinting?
Is this a race tactic that I as more of a distance swimmer should ignore?

Pat in TX

This guys stroke sounds like it's very clipped at the end.

But the question you are posing has never been answered definitively answered by the swimming
community.

That is, the question of how much to straighten out your arm at the end of the stroke. Maglischo
in his book, "Swimming Fastest", says the elbow should remain fairly bent. That's because
otherwise you will be pushing lots of water up with your forearm, which will sink your body and
cause more drag. Only a little bit of water will be going backward. Probably the best video of
that on Donald's site is Tom Dolan. Thorpe certainly swims that way as well.

However, there are certainly plenty of swimmers at the elite level who don't do that. And you can
find some of them on Donald Graft's site, as he indicates. Phelps immediately comes to mind as a
swimmer who DOES nearly straighten out his arm almost completely at the end of the stroke while
flexing his wrist so that his hand is pushing nearly backwards at the end of the stroke. I believe
you will find this style much more prevalent among women than men.

So there's no answer. Experiment yourself with the finish of your stroke and decide what you think
works best for you.

Eric

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at
www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bringing his arm out of the water right about the point where his

hand was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

beside his chest. I thought there was an additional part to this stroke---the follow through
back towards the hip before the hand

came out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making.

Was he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just sprinting? Is this a race tactic that I as more of a distance

swimmer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

should ignore?

Pat in TX

This guys stroke sounds like it's very clipped at the end.

But the question you are posing has never been answered definitively answered by the swimming
community.

That is, the question of how much to straighten out your arm at the end of the stroke. Maglischo
in his book, "Swimming Fastest", says the elbow should remain fairly bent. That's because
otherwise you will be pushing lots of water up with your forearm, which will sink your body and
cause more drag. Only a little bit of water will be going backward. Probably the best video of
that on Donald's site is Tom Dolan. Thorpe certainly swims that way as well.

However, there are certainly plenty of swimmers at the elite level who don't do that. And you
can find some of them on Donald Graft's site, as he indicates. Phelps immediately comes to mind
as a swimmer who DOES nearly straighten out his arm almost completely at the end of the stroke
while flexing his wrist so that his hand is pushing nearly backwards at the end of the stroke. I
believe you will find this style much more prevalent among women than men.

So there's no answer. Experiment yourself with the finish of your stroke and decide what you
think works best for you.

Eric

I can give you an answer of what works for me... When I press all the way in the rear quadrant
with one arm, while the other remains stretched out in the front quadrant, my stroke count (in a
25 yard pool) drops to 13. When I forget to do this, it can go up to 25. And I don't go any faster
with a 25 stroke count then I do with 13. Best compromise for me at the moment btw speed and
stretching is 18-20ct. I still don't have the strength and the energy that it takes to maintain
speed at 13ct. Something to work towards.

Pat said:

As I was swimming laps the other day, I saw a guy in the lane beside me bringing his arm out of
the water right about the point where his hand was beside his chest. I thought there was an
additional part to this stroke---the follow through back towards the hip before the hand came out.
His stroke was short and had more total strokes than I was making. Was he just sprinting? Is this
a race tactic that I as more of a distance swimmer should ignore?

There is a follow through. Your hand generally brushes past your hip. But for some people, as the
elbow rises and the arm bends, the hand is pulled forward before it comes out of the water, and it
can look like the stroke is shorter than it really is. Did this guy look like he was swimming
efficiently, or did it look like he was thrashing?

martin

Quoted message said:

There is a follow through. Your hand generally brushes past your hip. But for some people, as the
elbow rises and the arm bends, the hand is pulled forward before it comes out of the water, and it
can look like the stroke is shorter than it really is. Did this guy look like he was swimming
efficiently, or did it look like he was thrashing?

martin

Hmmm. It seems as if he was definitely NOT thrashing, but on the other hand, he did about 5 laps and
was finished. It looked like an all out sprint that he could not maintain. His hand definitely
didn't go past his nipple area. If I continue my hand towards the hip, aren't I getting any value
out of that motion? I am pushing backwards, it seems, still working the stroke as it were.

Pat in TX

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

If there's one thing that I have learned from this newsgroup, it is that world-class swimmers can
and do break the "rules" of the strokes. Elbow up, elbow down, unbalanced roll, head up, head down--
they can break the recommended ways to swim because of their sheer talent. So, in this case, I
would prefer to learn what is recommended instead of what is exceptional.

That sounds self-contradictory to me. If elites have widely varying approaches to a given technique
issue, how can there be a "recommended" solution? Whose recommendation are you interested in?

There are no "rules of the strokes" other than the legal ones, such as "don't pull on the
lane line".

Don

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

There is a follow through. Your hand generally brushes past your hip. But for some people, as the
elbow rises and the arm bends, the hand is pulled forward before it comes out of the water, and it
can look like the stroke is shorter than it really is. Did this guy look like he was swimming
efficiently, or did it look like he was thrashing?

martin

Hmmm. It seems as if he was definitely NOT thrashing, but on the other hand, he did about 5 laps
and was finished. It looked like an all out sprint that he could not maintain. His hand definitely
didn't go past his nipple area. If I continue my hand towards the hip, aren't I getting any value
out of that motion? I am pushing backwards, it seems, still working the stroke as it were.

Continue doing what you are doing. The hand should pull past the waist. Be careful you don't pull
too far and start pulling up rather than back.

martin

Pat said:

If I continue my hand towards the hip, aren't I getting any value out of that motion? I am pushing
backwards, it seems, still working the stroke as it were.

I think you do get value - to a point.

I got in that habit in my younger days after reading that some coaches want to see the water
spray up behind your hand so they know you're pushing a long stroke. Terry Laughlin mentioned
that he did, too.

But according to Maglischo, if you push too far back, at the end of the stroke you will be *lifting*
water rather than pushing it back and sinking yourself slightly with no propulsive benefit. He
advises that we make a clean withdrawal from the water, but pulling the hands out as early as you
describe sounds very extreme.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Quoted message said:

That sounds self-contradictory to me. If elites have widely varying

approaches

Quoted message said:

to a given technique issue, how can there be a "recommended" solution? Whose recommendation are
you interested in?

There are no "rules of the strokes" other than the legal ones, such as "don't pull on the
lane line".

Don

What I am looking for is the way to best efficiency for the energy expended. Isn't that what all
sports forms are striving to achieve? Efficiency. Oh, and I want to get a thorough workout.

Pat in TX

Donal Fagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

If I continue my hand towards the hip, aren't I getting any value out of that motion? I am
pushing backwards, it seems, still working the stroke as it were.

I think you do get value - to a point.

I got in that habit in my younger days after reading that some coaches want to see the water spray
up behind your hand so they know you're pushing a long stroke. Terry Laughlin mentioned that he
did, too.

There's a website with some good video of this.

goswim.tvvideoarch.htmlOpen ↗

Click on the video labelled "Extended Release". They want to see water flicking from the hand of the
swimmer at the exit to indicate a full stroke.

Eric

PS As an aside, isn't the TI stuff copywrited? This goswim site seems to advocate all the same
drills as TI, as well as the same way of swimming as TI. Is it a franchise? 🙂

Quoted message said:

But according to Maglischo, if you push too far back, at the end of the stroke you will be
*lifting* water rather than pushing it back and sinking yourself slightly with no propulsive
benefit. He advises that we make a clean withdrawal from the water, but pulling the hands out as
early as you describe sounds very extreme.

Donal Fagan AIA

I tried swimming that way today. I mean, I tried the "lift my hand at the nipple area" stroke. It
was difficult to get in a rhythm of doing that. I will be careful to see (feel?) that I am not
lifting upwards at the end of my stroke. Thanks to you and Martin both. I may be doing that lift-up
and not even realizing it.

I also tried swimming straight-armed on the front crawl. I didn't like that at all! There was no
rotation going on for sure.

Pat in TX

On 5 Jan 2004 16:51:35 -0800, [email hidden]

(4precious) said:

Quoted message said:

I got in that habit in my younger days after reading that some coaches want to see the water
spray up behind your hand so they know you're pushing a long stroke. Terry Laughlin mentioned
that he did, too.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, Terry said he used to have the same habit. I don't believe he
advocates flicking the water up.

Quoted message said:

There's a website with some good video of this.

goswim.tvvideoarch.htmlOpen ↗

Click on the video labelled "Extended Release". They want to see water flicking from the hand of
the swimmer at the exit to indicate a full stroke.

Quoted message said:

PS As an aside, isn't the TI stuff copywrited?

All materials included in this website are Copyright © 2003 by Total Immersion, Inc. All rights
reserved. No portion of this website may be reproduced or transmitted in any form without permission
in writing from Total Immersion, Inc. For information, contact: Total Immersion, Inc. 171 Main St.,
New Paltz, NY 12561 Or e-mail us.

Quoted message said:

This goswim site seems to advocate all the same drills as TI, as well as the same way of
swimming as TI.

Glenn Mills used to be with TI, then started GoSwim with some other guys. He was the lead coach at
my workshop, actually.

Quoted message said:

Is it a franchise? 🙂

TI has organizations in other countries and AFAICT, they intend to franchise their name to
successful graduates of their teacher training program (although they don't call it a franchise).

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

But according to Maglischo, if you push too far back, at the end of the stroke you will be
*lifting* water rather than pushing it back and sinking yourself slightly with no propulsive
benefit. He advises that we make a clean withdrawal from the water, but pulling the hands out as
early as you describe sounds very extreme.

Donal Fagan AIA

I tried swimming that way today. I mean, I tried the "lift my hand at the nipple area" stroke. It
was difficult to get in a rhythm of doing that. I will be careful to see (feel?) that I am not
lifting upwards at the end of my stroke. Thanks to you and Martin both. I may be doing that lift-
up and not even realizing it.

I also tried swimming straight-armed on the front crawl. I didn't like that at all! There was no
rotation going on for sure.

It is hard for us non-young, non-lithe, non-sprinters to immitate the general pattern of the stroke
of the elite sprinters. It appears a bit clipped at the end, and with a high turn-over rate, it is
almost an optical illusion, as if both arms are *always* out in front of the body. But keep in mind
that elite sprinters have very strong shoulders, so they can get a lot of traction earlier in their
stroke. For the rest of us, the "sweet spot" is further along in the stroke, alongside the body, so
to clip it off would be counter-productive.

I guess I'm hypothesizing that your optimal turnover rate (and thus how far back you pull) will
depend on your shoulder strength (in addition to how far you mean to swim, of course). For an elite
sprinter, who has very strong shoulders, it is advantageous to get each hand up front again as
quickly as possible, because his sweet spot is further forward than it is for us average Joes.

martin

Quoted message said:

It is hard for us non-young, non-lithe, non-sprinters to immitate the general pattern of the
stroke of the elite sprinters. It appears a bit clipped at the end, and with a high turn-over
rate, it is almost an optical illusion, as if both arms are *always* out in front of the body. But
keep in mind that elite sprinters have very strong shoulders, so they can get a lot of traction
earlier in their stroke. For the rest of us, the "sweet spot" is further along in the stroke,
alongside the body, so to clip it off would be counter-productive.

I guess I'm hypothesizing that your optimal turnover rate (and thus how far back you pull) will
depend on your shoulder strength (in addition to how far you mean to swim, of course). For an
elite sprinter, who has very strong shoulders, it is advantageous to get each hand up front again
as quickly as possible, because his sweet spot is further forward than it is for us average Joes.

martin

Well, that makes sense. I seem to go faster when I use a long stroke, applying pressure all during
the stroke. It really eats up "ground", kinda like a race horse with a long stride versus one with
a short strike but higher turnover. Maybe that is why the short/higher turnover guys don't swim
for distance.

Pat in TX

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<X%7Kb.129036$VB2.431775@attbi_s51>...

Quoted message said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lnMJb.120429$VB2.336264@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

You can answer this question for yourself by studying the videos at
www.buehlerbluemarlins.net.

Don

If there's one thing that I have learned from this newsgroup, it is that world-class swimmers
can and do break the "rules" of the strokes. Elbow up, elbow down, unbalanced roll, head up,
head down--they can break the recommended ways to swim because of their sheer talent. So, in
this case, I would prefer to learn what is recommended instead of what is exceptional.

That sounds self-contradictory to me. If elites have widely varying approaches to a given
technique issue, how can there be a "recommended" solution? Whose recommendation are you
interested in?

There are no "rules of the strokes" other than the legal ones, such as "don't pull on the
lane line".

Well, here are rules and then there are rules. The official rules for freestyle are, as Don says,
rather terse. About the only ones I can think of are that you have to stay in your land, cannot use
assistive devices such as floatition or pulling on the lane ropes, and cannot swim more than 15 m of
each lap under water.

However, there is a second level of rules that trial and error have suggested are appropriate for
most swimmers. These are the ones that most of us learn to swim by -- high elbow recovery, six-beat
kick, reach forward to catch, pull through and push out, exhale under water and turn your head to
the side to breathe, etc. Perhaps it is important in the context of this conversation to admit that
these are not really rules. They are guidelines that have passed the test of time.

In freestyle swimming, there are really only two fundamental "rules" for better swimming.
Increase effective power and decrease drag. There are some obvious tradeoffs here. For example,
the faster you swim, the greater the drag. There are many other tradeoffs made by each individual
swimmer as he or she becomes proficient that determine their individual style. What works for one
swimmer may not work for another because of differences in musculature, flexibility, body shape,
buoyancy, snd so on.

But nevertheless, a clear violation of one of the fundamental rules which is not in the context of a
tradeoff will always result in degraded performance. Thus in the case of the swimmer who is
prematurely beginning terminating his push, his performance *is* sub-optimal. (This is assuming that
he has no physical limitation that prevents him from pushing back past his chest.) In effect, what
he is doing is expending nearly all the effort needed for a productive stroke, but is applying only
a little more than half of the effective power available to him. Perhaps he was doing some kind of
drill, although I have to admit that the purpose of such a drill escapes me at the moment...

As others have said, there is an optimal point to end the push and withdraw the hand from the water
-- different for every swimmer but generally somewhere in the vicinity of the hip -- which
represents an optimal tradeoff between efficiency, effective application of force, and minimization
of drag. Most swimmers find this point simply by paying attention to their stroke. Swimming is very
much an activity guided by feel. If you feel that what you're doing is cheating you out of some
effective power or is creating excessive drag, it probably is.