Time to build?

A few thoughts:

- Just a terminology difference, but I think of all the late fall through mid winter work that I've been doing as 'Build' as in building CTL, building FTP, building fatigue resistance. Sure some call that period Base but to me that has connotations of LSD and long easy spinning, but that's totally semantics and if you follow folks like Friel and what's in his books vs some of his more recent thinking on his blogs it's splitting hairs.

- Yes, racing is on the horizon, not my biggest races but races are definitely approaching. Next week is my first scheduled L5 workouts, sure there's been plenty of here and there L5 efforts on harder group rides or when the mood struck me and I hammered a climb but no L5 repeats since last season. Some folks I'm working with who's racing has already begun have started their L5 work but our season is slightly delayed compared to warmer, drier climates.

- I never totally give away L4 work. Ideally I get at least one pure L4 session per week pretty much year round but if I go to one L5 day and retain one team ride or one early season race I may not do structured L4 work every week but still try to hit a solid L4 session at least every ten to fifteen days depending on how much other high end riding I'm doing including racing.

-Dave

Regardless of what you call it, I didn't follow a LSD base period plan. I did a mixture of L2, L3, and L4 from September until February. Last week was my first session of L5 intervals and it was hard. I was not able to make power compared to the L5 sessions I did last summer. I did another one today and it went much better. Hopefully it will get even better next week. Incidentally, I did all the work outside riding on 35 psi filled winter tires. I think the high rolling resistance actually makes it easier because I go slower and thus don't need as much road.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Regardless of what you call it, I didn't follow a LSD base period plan. ...

Yeah, that was my assumption. I only pointed it out because it makes a lot more sense to move from a period where you had already adapted to a lot of SST/L4 work right into L5 work which makes perfect sense. For someone coming off a traditional LSD base period I wouldn't skip the phase where you move into SST/L4 work. That's more for clarity to others who read this thread.

-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Yeah, that was my assumption. I only pointed it out because it makes a lot more sense to move from a period where you had already adapted to a lot of SST/L4 work right into L5 work which makes perfect sense. For someone coming off a traditional LSD base period I wouldn't skip the phase where you move into SST/L4 work. That's more for clarity to others who read this thread.

-Dave

Good point.

Based on recent L4 and L5 workouts, it appears that the ratio of my 20MP to 5MP has decreased since last summer. Last year my 5MP was about 320w and my 20MP was about 250w (0.78). In recent workouts I have been able to do 2x20 at 230-240w and 4x5 at 260-280w (0.87). So it seems like I have been able to maintain my 20MP/FTP even though my AWC and v02max have decreased. This says to me that I have lost some high-end system adaptations, but they have been offset by increased low-end system adaptations. So it will be interesting to see what happens to my 20MP/FTP as I tune up the higher end systems with L5 and then L6 work.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find that when you start doing L5 work that 5min power has improved as well, you may just not have done an all out 5 minute effort yet.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] - Just a terminology difference, but I think of all the late fall through mid winter work that I've been doing as 'Build' as in building CTL, building FTP, building fatigue resistance. Sure some call that period Base but to me that has connotations of LSD and long easy spinning, but that's totally semantics and if you follow folks like Friel and what's in his books vs some of his more recent thinking on his blogs it's splitting hairs.

I think I might have misunderstood something in this paragraph. When you say "LSD" do you mean simply a workout or workouts that consist entirely of L2 or do you mean it in a broader sense to describe linear periodization as Lydiard and/or Friel describe it? I had thought you meant the former but now I think you might mean the later.

My plan for this year is to follow linear periodization but without any long block of L2. I took out the L2 because of various advice given on this forum and the wattage forum, but I had always thought that it the advice was still in the context of linear periodization. I now think that people have actually been recommending avoiding linear periodization altogether. That would explain why I rarely see the term periodization used on this forum. Does that make sense?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
..... When you say "LSD" do you mean simply a workout or workouts that consist entirely of L2 or do you mean it in a broader sense to describe linear periodization as Lydiard and/or Friel describe it? I had thought you meant the former but now I think you might mean the later....

In the quote above I was referring to LSD as a training philosophy and an overall base building strategy not a singular workout. IOW, the traditional approach to building winter base with little to no work above L2 but relying on high mileage and longer hours in the saddle on a regular basis. Whether that also fits into a specific linear periodization plan is a related but different question.

Quoted post said:

... I now think that people have actually been recommending avoiding linear periodization altogether. That would explain why I rarely see the term periodization used on this forum. Does that make sense?...

You seem to be applying a very tight and specific definition to the term 'Linear Periodization' the concept is not nearly so tight as any single author might describe it. Linear periodization does not require a specific approach to building base before introducing race specific high end work. You seem to cling to a very narrow definition of a useful concept. If you want to take it literally from Friel's Training Bible (not his more recent blog posts) then you wouldn't use an approach grounded in SST to build the initial base, if you want to take it literally from a Lydiard/Howe description you'd definitely want to utilize SST during base building. The term does not carry a rigorous and singular definition even if you have interpreted it that way.

So I'd have to disagree with your conclusion above, there are many ways to establish your base fitness that do not overly stress your body and mind with high end work. That could be a traditional high volume, lower intensity LSD approach or SST approaches advocated by Lydiard/Howe/Coggan and many here. About the only thing not generally recommended in a traditional linear periodization approach is building that foundation via HIIT work. But once base is built, however you build it, a linear periodization approach transitions to focus on higher end event specific work tailored to the needs of the individual athlete. Again that is not rigorously defined because it varies so much between athletes, their target events, and their individual strengths and weaknesses. But a smart approach is to target specific limiters as in train the weaknesses in preparation to race their strengths.

So no, I don't think anyone here is dismissing linear periodization as a useful tool, just that the concept seems to be broader than the narrow definition you're clinging to. I'm inferring here because it is not exactly clear how you're using the term but you seem confused about the replies you're receiving. I will say what's described in Friel's Training Bible is based on an unspoken LSD base building assumption (which he has walked back quite a bit on his blogs in recent years) and what's described in Arthur Lydiards work or Charles Howe's adaptation of that work for cyclists emphasizes SST work for base building and in either case the transition to race preparation should target individual needs and isn't a one size fits all approach.

Good luck,
-Dave

Thanks, Dave, for your patient and detailed answer. I hope you will forgive me for still having open questions.

Quoted post said:

In the quote above I was referring to LSD as a training philosophy and an overall base building strategy not a singular workout. IOW, the traditional approach to building winter base with little to no work above L2 but relying on high mileage and longer hours in the saddle on a regular basis. Whether that also fits into a specific linear periodization plan is a related but different question.

Ok, that has lead to some confusion. I have not read anyone advocating a base building strategy that consists of entirely L2. From my reading, I understand the base period in Friel's linear periodization includes L2, L3, L4, and L7 work and that the primary pattern that makes it linear periodization is the progression from an emphasis on L2 to an emphasis on L4.

Quoted post said:

You seem to be applying a very tight and specific definition to the term 'Linear Periodization' the concept is not nearly so tight as any single author might describe it. Linear periodization does not require a specific approach to building base before introducing race specific high end work. You seem to cling to a very narrow definition of a useful concept. If you want to take it literally from Friel's Training Bible (not his more recent blog posts) then you wouldn't use an approach grounded in SST to build the initial base, if you want to take it literally from a Lydiard/Howe description you'd definitely want to utilize SST during base building. The term does not carry a rigorous and singular definition even if you have interpreted it that way.

I've read quite a few posts on Joe Friel's blog and I have not seen an article where he suggests not doing a focused block of L2 at some point. Can you point me to a post you are referring to?

I thought Lydiard also advocated a focused block of L2 at the beginning of the season. In fact I thought he was the father of that idea. I need to read up more on him.

I don't think my interpretation of linear periodization requires particular power zones. It just needs to progress from low intensity high volume to high intensity low volume. But ya, I am trying to cling to one standard definition of the term. We need some sort of standard definition in order to communicate with each other effectively, don't we?

Maybe this will help you.

I am not saying this was blog post Dave was referring to.

This is from Joe Friels Blog dated 11/7/10

Base 1 workout - muscular endurance Z3 1-2 times a week

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/11/base-1-training-part-4.html

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by scottz123 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Maybe this will help you.

I am not saying this was blog post Dave was referring to.

This is from Joe Friels Blog dated 11/7/10

Base 1 workout - muscular endurance Z3 1-2 times a week

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/11/base-1-training-part-4.html

I think you misread the blog post. Base 1 is all L2 and L7. It's not until base 2 that you add in L3.

"Base 1: Aerobic endurance, muscular force and speed skills. In Base 2 you can add muscular endurance to the list of abilities to be trained."

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think you misread the blog post. Base 1 is all L2 and L7. It's not until base 2 that you add in L3.

"Base 1: Aerobic endurance, muscular force and speed skills. In Base 2 you can add muscular endurance to the list of abilities to be trained."

Are you doing any weight lifting with your legs?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think you misread the blog post. Base 1 is all L2 and L7.

I misread? L7 in Base 1?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You seem to be confused about training. By themselves the "L" numbers based on power (or heart rate) don't mean anything.

For example, this month I ride 3 hours a day (up from 2 hours a day laast month). I spend more time in L4 than any other L*. I spend more time in L5 and above then in L2 & L3 combined. Sounds impressive, but the miles are mostly worthless for training. It is too cold to get my heart rate high enough for me to improve. When it gets warmer, I will move my power output up 10% or so. That will get heart rate up high enough to improve.

I am not going to tell you how to train - you don't provide enough information. I will tell you to find someone who is willing to look at all of your numbers and advise you on what your training goals should be.

---

When it does get get warm enough to work harder, I will change my route to one that allows me to do several 3 minute intervals at 110-125%FTP plus 2 30 minute intervals at 95%FTP. That should get my heart rate up to the proper level.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by scottz123 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I misread? L7 in Base 1?

Speed skills and muscular force workouts are neuromuscular in nature so I just grouped them into L7.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by scottz123 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Are you doing any weight lifting with your legs?

Yes, I strength train once a week, but not with the goal of increasing my bike performance. I do it for overall health and fitness.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by gudujarlson [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I think you misread the blog post.

"Base 1: Aerobic endurance, muscular force and speed skills. In Base 2 you can add muscular endurance to the list of abilities to be trained."

Per Friels blog post:

Base 1 Training, Part 4

"Muscular endurance workouts are best saved until after strength training has reached a peak. This is typically after Base 1." Friel

With Friel reaching a peak in strength training means doing 3 sets of 6 squatting w/ 1.3 to 1.7 x body weight. Those weights can be challenging / fatiguing.

If a person is not lifting that heavy (I do not know how many cyclists do lift that heavy) - I would assume they would / could do muscular endurance workouts (Z3) per Friel

That is what I got out of blog...

On another thought

Last year I did follow "training bible" and followed a weight lifting program that kept upping my 5 rep max til end of base 1 - don't know if it helped my cycling. Changed it up this off season with FTP and SST work

My post
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/493591/preparing-for-first-mtb-race-of-the-season

peace