FTP Interval Question

azdroptop said:

This is possibly a silly question...However, here goes.

Is there a difference if I do an FTP interval x 20 mins on relatively flat ground vs. say avg. 5% incline? Overall in actual TT's I've been able to carry a slightly higher avg watts x 1 hour on a climbing TT vs. flat TT. Thanks.

Some folks report that they can hold higher average power on a climb, others are higher on the flat. I haven't tallied numbers, but it seems like I read more people stating the former than the latter.

Interesting little query.

I figure it is easier to do a 20m interval, or any lengthy interval really, on an incline. Why? Because the incline is going to provide much more steady resistance than you'd see on flat ground. That means there is less variability required and in general, imo, the constant resistance and consequently, fairly steady output, is almost always going to be easier than a more fluctuating output. It, the constant or near constant power, certainly requires less concentration and places a more modest NM demand.

DancenMacabre said:

Interesting little query.

I figure it is easier to do a 20m interval, or any lengthy interval really, on an incline. Why? Because the incline is going to provide much more steady resistance than you'd see on flat ground. That means there is less variability required and in general, imo, the constant resistance and consequently, fairly steady output, is almost always going to be easier than a more fluctuating output. It, the constant or near constant power, certainly requires less concentration and places a more modest NM demand.

NM? Neuro Muscular? Less of a demand while climbing? Really? What planet would that be on?

Despite the fact that I love climbing, I find it way harder to keep a steady power output especially when the grade varies even a percent or two.

I don't know of too many hills with a fairly constant gradient that takes 20+ minutes. There's Monitor Pass from Topaz but everything else is either too short or goes uphill and down dale at some point. Most of the hills in my neck of the woods required 'typewriter like' shifting to keep the rpms and power in the right range...

A little off topic - however still on FTP intervals.

I read on flamme rouge (flammerouge.jeftpdrills.htmOpen ↗) that to increase FTP you should complete your 2 x 20' @ 85% of FTP.

This seems a little low to me. My 20min TT = 274W. 274 @ 95% = 260W FTP

Therefore to increase FTP I should complete 2 x 20' at 221W average??

I haven't done these intervals yet, however the intensity just seems very low. Any input would be appreciated.

Cheers

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by AxelBrawn [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

A little off topic - however still on FTP intervals.

I read on flamme rouge (flammerouge.jeftpdrills.htmOpen ↗) that to increase FTP you should complete your 2 x 20' @ 85% of FTP.

This seems a little low to me. My 20min TT = 274W. 274 @ 95% = 260W FTP

Therefore to increase FTP I should complete 2 x 20' at 221W average??

I haven't done these intervals yet, however the intensity just seems very low. Any input would be appreciated.

Cheers

That sounds more like an SST workout, although still slightly on the low side. The biggest benefit of doing SST is that it creates less fatigue than true FTP work. That said, YMMV, everyone responds to training slightly differently.

Doing a bit more research (Coggan) I think I'll do 2x20' @ 95-100% FTP

Or 247-260W

I think your right 85% would put me in the tempo area...

Thanks for the feedback

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by AxelBrawn [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

to increase FTP you should complete your 2 x 20' @ 85% of FTP.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by AxelBrawn [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Doing a bit more research (Coggan) I think I'll do 2x20' @ 95-100% FTP

There is a wide variation in recommendations. Mostly it has to do with how much you are training.

If you are training long hours 85% might be a better target than 95%.

---

I prefer 80-85% for 60 minutes rather that 2 20 minute sesions.

Don't discount that 85% of FTP just yet. I personally do my SST intervals at 90%, but if I'm tired or just unmotivated, 85% is great. I don't think the body does anything drastically different between the 85 and 90% mark.

Think about this - you can do more time at 85% FTP than you can at 100% FTP - and, the difference in subsequent adaptations from the stress is relatively insignificant (according to the chart below). So, I'm personally sticking to that SST range for now until I get closer to my TT event. That's not to say I won't have some full out 100% efforts every now and then before that time - especially during periodic 1 hour FTP testing.

With all that said, everyone is different. I may find out later that 100% is where I need to put my time at this time of the year, but for now, I'm going to go by the literature I've read since I don't have enough time on the saddle to see what best works for me.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com193Open ↗[/IMG]

A quote to chew on from the website I got this chart from (the Chart's origin AFAIK is from the "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" book):
fascatcoaching.comsweetspottraining.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

[FONT= Tahoma]The underlying principle of sweet spot training is a balanced amount of intensity and volume that produces a maximal increase in an athlete’s functional threshold power (FTP). In the figure below, the “sweet spot” occurs between a high level/zone 2 and level/zone 4. It is within these ranges that you will build your base the most and simultaneously increase your power at threshold. More bang for your buck, and thus the nickname, “sweet spot”.[/FONT]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by awilki01 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Don't discount that 85% of FTP just yet. I personally do my SST intervals at 90%, but if I'm tired or just unmotivated, 85% is great. I don't think the body does anything drastically different between the 85 and 90% mark.

Think about this - you can do more time at 85% FTP than you can at 100% FTP - and, the difference in subsequent adaptations from the stress is relatively insignificant (according to the chart below). So, I'm personally sticking to that SST range for now until I get closer to my TT event. That's not to say I won't have some full out 100% efforts every now and then before that time - especially during periodic 1 hour FTP testing.

With all that said, everyone is different. I may find out later that 100% is where I need to put my time at this time of the year, but for now, I'm going to go by the literature I've read since I don't have enough time on the saddle to see what best works for me.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com193Open ↗[/IMG]

A quote to chew on from the website I got this chart from (the Chart's origin AFAIK is from the "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" book):
fascatcoaching.comsweetspottraining.htmlOpen ↗

but if your volume is limited (because of life commitments) you can afford do higher intensity... again it's a matter of maximizing/blanching volume + intensity.. you should a try to do as much volume as you possibly can and then match an intensity that meshes with that.. it's not really a matter of you should reduce your intensity it's a matter of you cannot actually maintain that higher intensity at the higher volume long term.. smaller volume you can though..

but you are right.. as long as you are in and about that region you are making fairly good use of your time for working threshold, the difference in adaptations are minimal.. so if you're not up to it totally on a day.. no big deal, you are still doing good work.. no reason to sweat it.. listen to your body.. but if you are up to it then you will do yourself a little better to wander up to the upper regions of that band a little bit.. if you're coming off of a recovery week it might be fun (it's ok to have fun too.. lol..) to just belt one out there if you find yourself on a good ride and it might help you see where you are in your development as well and give you some confidence that what you are doing is working.. but just don't make that a habit.. think long term and the opportunity cost of doing that on the rest of your workouts..

but another element that i've also found essential when time restrained is a LONG 4-6hr weekend ride (usually a good hard sportif, group ride) at least 3 times a month without these it the whole time limited training schedule thing doesn't work for me..

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

again it's a matter of maximizing/blanching volume + intensity.. you should a try to do as much volume as you possibly can and then match an intensity that meshes with that..

That is some very sound advice there. I use my weekly ATP schedule to figure out how many hours I have in a given week. Given those hours, I try to make the best use of the duration/intensity. It just so happens that for me working M-F during the day, my weekly routines are more SST and Tempo. On the weekends, I may relax the intensity a bit, but I put in more time. I want to try to maintain that 4-7 TSS/d/wk gain. That is how I would like to figure out my intensity for workouts. I need to dig deeper into past workouts to develop that strategy better though. Right now, I'm winging it which may be ultimately what I do anyway.