TT position

since your fork is already cut for your stem, preventing you to adjust it upwards, only solution i can think of is to change the stem for one with a good angle pointing upwards when you TT, then change it back to your normal stem,

this is assuming that your saddle position is correct, it could be that you are sitting to low also,

A couple of thoughts:

- Lower is not always better when it comes to TT positions from either a sustainable power standpoint or even an aerodynamics standpoint. It sounds like you're attempting to ride in a very low position if your knees are brushing your chest. A good rule of thumb is to drop your shoulders (acromium process or flat hard bony feeling part right above your shoulder joint on the outside of each shoulder) so that it's level with the point in your mid to lower back where your lats (the large triangular wing shaped muscles on either side) originate (IOW, the lower pointy end of your lats). Getting lower than this might make your chest seem really low, flat or even downsloping but it generally starts exposing your upper back to the wind so you start trading wind drag off the chest for wind drag off the back which doesn't generally buy you anything from an aerodynamics standpoint but costs you with discomfort, issues like you seem to having with your knees, and often loss of sustainable power from an overly tight hip angle.

- There are three basic contact point adjustments that raise your torso angle but also change other things so you've got to think big picture when making adjustments. Basically it comes down to:

• Aero bar pad height which you adjust either by changing stem angle or stem spacers or using pad risers to lift your pads up higher. It's usually best to think of this in terms of pad drop or the vertical distance between the top of the saddle and the top of the aero bar pads.
  
• Aero bar reach. This isn't as obvious, but the more you stretch out forward the lower you get for the same pad drop. When your upper arms are at nearly a right angle to your back (conventional aero fitting for skeletal support and long distance comfort) you'll be higher for a given pad drop than if you've got an open elbow angle (arms stretched forward from the shoulders in a semi or 'faux superman' position). So if you're stretched pretty long and your clip on bars allow you to slide the pads back a bit to shorten the cockpit it will also bring your shoulders up which increases your torso angle and could resolve the problem with knees brushing your chest.
  
• Seat fore aft position and height. Seat changes should start with a focus on proper seat height for good max and min knee angles while pedaling in the aero position and secondly for obtaining a large enough hip angle (typically 90-96 degrees for aggressive aero positions) but the fore aft position of the saddle also impacts your overall reach and with it how open your elbow angle is and that impacts your torso angle just like moving your pads fore or aft. Remember that your effective seat height decreases as you slide your saddle forward and increases as you slide it back so seat angle changes require seat height changes which changes pad drop so this stuff is pretty interconnected and changes should be thought of as part of the whole system.
  

Check out some of the info on this site regarding TT fitting: http://bikedynamics.co.uk/FitGuideTT.htm

It can also be useful to look at TT photos and see how low serious riders are or are not going on their TT bikes.

FWIW, I spent several seasons and a couple of fittings from experienced TT fitters working on getting as low as I could. I did a lot of training in those positions and got my power pretty close to what I can manage in my road position but raced an awful lot of mediocre time trials where my power was good but my times were middle of the field at best. I could ride with up to 20 cm of pad drop (I'm 5'10" tall) pretty comfortably, sustain decent power in that position and could see reasonably well up the road while holding a deep turtled head tuck but my times were still pretty dismal. This season I've gone the other way entirely. I'm riding a mere 8cm of pad drop but stretched out right up to the UCI morph limit (80cm between BB center and aero bar ends) with my seat all the way back to match my road bike angles. My power is the same, it feels way too comfortable riding so high but my times are much better this year with a win and a couple of podium places in TTs this season so far.

So lower is not necessarily better. It might be for you with your good lower back flexibility but I'd get some fitting photos and start by getting your shoulders even with the origin of your lats and see what that does for your knee-chest issues and see how that works for you on the road. A power meter makes aero field testing easier but even without one you can do roll down testing to compare positions and you can do TT training in various positions to see what actually helps you go faster.

BTW, don't ignore the value of a deeply 'turtled' head tuck. Regardless of the rest of your position this can really buy you speed while time trialing. A lot of otherwise fast looking positions are ridden by folks that hold their heads way up in the air which isn't helping them.

Here's side shots that I posted a while back comparing the higher position I'm riding now (top) to the lower position I was previously riding. To my eyes that low position in the bottom photo looks a lot faster but field testing and race results tell me otherwise.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

-Dave

The reason you were faster in the top pic is because of the different yaw angle of wind from the fan. 😉

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The reason you were faster in the top pic is because of the different yaw angle of wind from the fan. 😉

Zactly!

to anybody who knows.do i need to raise my saddle if i cant maintain a tucked in leg position,new in tting so any info helps.one more thing my saddle height on the tt bike is higher compared to my road bike is that normal?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by supersix 105 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

to anybody who knows.do i need to raise my saddle if i cant maintain a tucked in leg position,new in tting so any info helps.one more thing my saddle height on the tt bike is higher compared to my road bike is that normal?

A tucked in leg position? Your knees are supposed to track straight up and down.

It is only normal, or advisable, if you can fit yourself with a different pair of legs, failing that keep your saddle heights the same.

The only reason for it to change would be any changes in pedaling style during a long threshold effort. Some folks drop their heals when using a slightly bigger gear at max sustainable effort and this can lead to you lowering the saddle a touch. Some folks pedal toes pointed down all the time.

Whatever works for you, works.

i rode this morning and i felt that my leg while pedaling tends to to stick out my knees at least instead of tracking up and down,that's why i'm wondering about the saddle height.

First - make sure that when you make any changes you test the position riding fairly hard. It really doesn't do you much good if you test the position when soft pedalling as your pedalling style with likely change.

Ride your TT bike in a low position but not in the aerobars (with your hands near the brake levers) do this still happen? Try a position that's not forcing you into a really deep tuck - you might not have the functional flexibilty for that.

Double check the measurement on your aerobar extensions and armrests. Make sure that they're spot on. When doing a comparison check, you can use a piece of string as it's the relative distances that are needed. Find the middle of nose of the saddle and hold the string from there and hit various "landmarks" like the center of the armrest bolt, end of aerobar extension on both sides.

Lower your saddle a little - say 5mm. Try again. Does this still happen? You said that your TT saddle height is a higher than your road bike saddle height. Try lowering the TT saddle in small amounts until either the problem goes away or your seat is slightly lower than it is on the road bike. If lowering the saddle doesn't fix it then set it too the same as the road bike.

Are their any wear marks on the saddle that indicate that you're not sitting on the saddle correctly - such as leaning to one side or the other?

If you're using the insoles that came with your shoes, I'd try something like the eSoles insole kit. Find an arch that you can feel all the time when riding. Once you have happy feet you might get a little more in the way of feedback on what may be wrong.

You could always lay on your back with your legs together up against the side of the wall. With your legs vertical is there a noticable leg length difference? Have someone note the relative angle of your feet too. If the outside of one foot is distinctly higher than the inside then it "may" be a clue that you need to shim it. If there is a leg length difference then you might have some fun assertaining whether its a physical leg length issue (skeletal) for which you'll need an xray or functional - something that a good masseur/physio could help you with. Pesky things that massively tight psoas, hamstrings, glutes, hip rotators etc can make one leg seem somewhat functionally shorter than the other. Either way, the short term easy fix would be to shim the shorter side. Maybe shim and wedge.

Please note that when your TT position gets this bad, it might be time to just give up:

[IMG]cyclingforums.com313Open ↗[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by alienator [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Please note that when your TT position gets this bad, it might be time to just give up:

[IMG]cyclingforums.com313Open ↗[/IMG]

Lets not be to quick to past judgement. There are plenty of other positions that can be tried out. Just imagine..... Oh man wait I thought I was on another forum.

ok i'll lower the saddle by increments and raise the stem by 5mm maybe i am going in too low.tanx

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by supersix 105 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

i rode this morning and i felt that my leg while pedaling tends to to stick out my knees at least instead of tracking up and down,that's why i'm wondering about the saddle height.

Are you overweight? Guys I see riding with their knees sticking out are usually pretty chubby, and their stomach and chunky inner thighs get in the way of each other