when to start hard short intervals

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

But when do I start working on my shorter intervals to deal with the surges in a crit (1,3,5 mins)?
Or should I be incorporating those workouts now?
What about sprinting?
Also I plan on doing more group rides and possibly taking more pulls at the front as I get stronger.

You have 6 weeks before the season starts, so I would suggest doing 1/3/5min intervals NOW. But recover fully between efforts. As you get closer to the season, and in-season, try doing your 1/3/5min intervals with less recovery to simulate recovering in a race, but get start getting at least some VO2 work in now.

Sprinting? Also now.

how are 3min/5 min intervals set up as?
Should I do them at the end of my 2x20's?
How much recovery do I need between the intervals?
At what %of FTP should I do them?

Looking over the group rides I do with the shop. The ride is moderatly fast, it's about 40 miles give or take. I tend to do pretty well throughout until we get to a very steep and long climb. The climb is 3 minutes long. Usually about 3/4 of the way up I fall off the lead group (back in 09/2010), haven't ridden with the group since because I've been doing a lot of indoor things.

Getting nervous about being fit enough to race....

Thanks.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]You have 6 weeks before the season starts, so I would suggest doing 1/3/5min intervals NOW....

I see where CalicoCat is coming from and in general starting high end work six weeks or so before 'important events' is a very good idea. But I'd suggest you keep riding the L4 train a bit longer or at most swap a portion of your L4 training for L5 at this point. Here's what I'm thinking:

- 203 watts at 66 kg puts your FTP right around 3.1 w/kg folks can certainly survive lower category races at that level if they're very cagey and good pack riders but it doesn't leave you much if any margin for dealing with skills shortcomings or issues riding in a tight field. Basically without the sustainable power to go the distance even if you get stuck out in the wind a bit more than would be ideal you're likely to have a tough time in races.

- Sustainable power takes the longest to build but has the biggest overall payback. It's the foundation that everything else builds on top of. It doesn't sound like you've been working on it for very long and scrapping the essential core fitness building to swap to high end work typically won't take you very far.

- IIRC, this is your first season racing so I'm going to guess you haven't done a lot of fast riding in large packs or cornered at speed on crit courses with riders all around you. IOW, I'd focus more on sustainable fitness and long term progress knowing that these first races are going to be big learning opportunities but not likely to be your 'A' races this season.

So I'd suggest sticking primarily with your FTP building focus for a bit longer. Maybe swap one L4 workout every other week for a L5 session to start getting used to that kind of work but still do at least one and preferably two L4 sessions per week along with Tempo/SST work. Treat the March crits as early season training races or 'C' races that you'd normally train through. Definitely race them and use them to develop skills, learn how to ride in a fast group and to see how your fitness stacks up against the local competition but don't be discouraged if you don't do as well as you hoped. After all you're not peaking for this first race series, you haven't totally swapped over to higher end race prep work and you're still building fitness in terms of both FTP and CTL while some of your competitors are starting to spend their base in hopes of early season success.

After that first round of races you should have a much better idea of where you stand relative to the local competition and what needs more work. Then pick some 'B' and 'A' races later in the calendar and lay out a plan that takes you to those at your best fitness of the year working specific needs and continuing to develop your racing skills as those target events approach. Back out six to eight weeks before your most important events, hopefully several events in a span of a few weeks and that's when I'd do a transition to higher end work and start thinking about a peaking plan.

If you were sitting above 3.5 w/kg right now, had a couple years of race experience and really wanted to nail these March crits I'd totally agree with the advice above. But I think you should stay the course a bit longer and see if you can take your aerobic engine building a bit further before transitioning to a race prep phase.

-Dave

I have a question. We've had a couple of snow days here in St Louis, so the office has been closed these past few days. I also have tomorrow off...

I've attached my performance manager from goldencheetah. As you can tell, I'm not in really good shape, my BIKESCORE (long term - "CTL"😉 is just under 40. My TSB is all out of whack because of this.

I'm coming off a string of workouts right now.
Friday - 2x20 LT 5m RBI (avg 20m - 202 watts) Bikescore 78
Saturday - 1 hr at Park Bikescore 85
Sunday - 90 min TEMPO (avg 90m - 161 watts) Bikescore 102
Monday - 2x20 LT 5m RBI (avg 20m - 193 watts) Bikescore 84
Tuesday - 2x20 LT 5m RBI (avg 20m - 195 watts) Bikescore 78

My legs were feeling tired for todays' 2x20 as well as yesterdays... The tempo workout was took more out of me than I imagined.

I have some extra time tomorrow. What kind of workout would benefit me most? Thursday and Friday will be working days for me, so more than likely I won't be riding.

So far I'm thinking a really long L2 day or another 90 min tempo.

Everything's been done on the trainer.

Thanks.
[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Looks to me like you're due for an easier day or maybe a complete rest day. Your TSB is diving fast, you've trained at least 5 straight days with three of those at Threshold, another at Tempo and something else in the park but it had to be pretty stout to rack up the same TSS in an hour as you earn on your 2x20 days.

I can see the attraction of getting in a bit more training during the snowstorm and time off work but between your data and the way your legs have been feeling it really sounds like time to come up for a bit of air. At most I'd suggest something like half an hour to forty minutes on the low end of Tempo or maybe Endurance riding for roughly the same duration just to keep the legs moving.

Remember, adaptations don't happen during the workouts, you need the workout stress to give your body a reason to adapt but the adaptations occur during your recovery. You can't cram for this stuff and the key is a sustainable plan for the long haul which includes adequate recovery. If you absolutely must get on the trainer and do more tomorrow then definitely think about a day or more completely off the bike.

Based on your current PMC I definitely stand by what I said in my previous post. Stay on an FTP and CTL building course through the early season races. Switching now to short intense intervals will almost certainly lead to decreases in the CTL you've accumulated and you don't have enough in the bank to start spending yet.

-Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the responses.
At what point would you stat incorporating the shorter intense intervals?

I believe my CTL will max out around 60-70. I put in about 422 bikescore a week. It'll go up a little bit if and when I start doing the long group rides on Saturday. Those rides will give me 200 points in one ride.

Should I start the intervals when the CTL tops out or before?
Won't doing short hard intervals also tend to push the FTP up?
Isn't it true that I have to go harder to be able to go harder... a pull up instead of push up from going steady at FTP.

Thanks.

Not trying to highjack the thread, but........Dave you discussed FTP/kg and how it relates to a rider in a lower class (CAT 4/5), what should a CAT 4/5 be shooting for? Obviously the higher the better, but I am just guessing that based on the limited power testing I have done, I am around 3.6 w/kg now and hope to get to around 3.8 w/kg by my first race. I am at 89kg now and am targeting 86kg by March, but I do have quite a bit of muscle mass and am good at sheding weight, so I am just wondering if I should put more effort into that.

Good luck to you in your 1st races MAC!! I am in the same boat and am anxious as heck, it is like studying like crazy for a test and you have to wait another month to see how it all paid off.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
...Should I start the intervals when the CTL tops out or before? ...

I'd suggest the former, work your CTL (while still primarily focusing on FTP building and Tempo work to round out your week) until it starts to flatten out and you're running out of additional time or energy to train or your defined 'A' races are approaching. Typical high end L5/L6/L7 sessions rack up less TSS per hour than Tempo/L4 sessions so unless you can find more time to train you'll likely lose CTL when you start introducing high end work. IOW, it's likely that your CTL will top out roughly the same time you start adding the high end sessions unless somehow you find more time and energy to train and can offset that high end work with some longer Tempo or L2 riding.

Quoted post said:

Won't doing short hard intervals also tend to push the FTP up?

It can and some folks rely heavily on that approach but IME push up works better than pull up in part because most athletes can sustain a push up approach for many more weeks or months than they can sustain a focused pull up phase. Your FTP will probably continue to rise after transitioning to the high end work, in part because of the high end work itself and in part because of the CTL drop that often comes from introducing high end work which means a TSB rebound and additional freshness. Whether this really means your FTP has risen or if it just means you're fresh enough to actually perform to your capabilities is debatable but it is very likely that you'll sustain higher power for long intervals after the transition but that pattern may not last for long if your CTL drops too far or if you can't sustain the high end work for long.

Quoted post said:

Isn't it true that I have to go harder to be able to go harder... a pull up instead of push up from going steady at FTP.

To really hit high end power for short durations which are well in excess of FTP yes you'll need to work those systems. But you don't necessarily have to push beyond FTP for FTP to rise. Sure you'll want to keep adjusting the absolute power you associate with L3/L4 work as your fitness improves but it's not necessary to ride L5 to see your L3/L4 power improve. For that matter even after months of dedicated L3/L4 training with nary an L5 session I still see my L5 power rise when I get around to testing or get pushed hard for 3 to 8 minutes during a race. Push up works.

But yes, to really put the icing on the cake for things like actually staying at the front to position yourself for the sprint in a crit, you'll want to work dedicated high end work. But it's definitely icing on the cake. If you're not reliably coming to the finishing laps in pretty good shape and able to get at least near the front at will then all the one minute power or 5 seconds of sprinting in the world isn't likely to do you much good. You've got to go the distance without being pushed to your absolute limit if you want to have a chance at the final lap and the podium. That's going to be more a matter of L3/L4 and L5 fitness than L6/L7 fitness. But get the former up as far as you can by mid season and yes, you'll want to work on the latter to really take your season as far as possible. But next year you'll want to start the cycle over again with additional L2/L3/L4 work started earlier so you can make that transition to high end earlier in the season and from a higher CTL.

-Dave

Mac,

You'll probably find that you'll get plenty of L4 and higher during your early season races... You won't be lacking for L5 and L6 if you're scambling for wheels. 😉

Like Dave kinda said in one of his first posts, you have to differentiate between what's really important and what could be called "nice". It's nice to not get shelled out the back during the first races of the year but in the grand scheme of things it's not "important" - especially if your goal is many months away. If you have a plan for the year, and you should, then base your training around that and not something that seems "nice".

It's like anything else. To get good consistent results you need a plan that'll get you where you need to be. If the plan is good and you follow it, you'll likely either achieve your goals or get pretty close to them - if those goals were realistic. In addition - if you don't get close to them you have a very good history of what may not work for you. Chopping and changing things on a whim because you want to do a little better now rather than later kinda screws up and overcomplicates the backtracking process for seeing what really works for you when you come to review this stuff at the end of the year.

You will probably suck for the first few crits - and not just because of the fitness factor. Riding in a bunch of people that's bigger than what you're normally used too and full of riders who are just as nervous as you, all want to be up the front and half of which have the bike skills of dead amoeba means that it's not just a test of fitness, it's part luck, part bike skills and part fitness.

Just go have fun, challenge yourself and get your 10 Cat5 races done and move up to Cat4, where the racing is a little more about racing and less about riding people who just seem to want to lay down on the ground.

To really hit high end power for short durations which are well in excess of FTP yes you'll need to work those systems. But you don't necessarily have to push beyond FTP for FTP to rise. Sure you'll want to keep adjusting the absolute power you associate with L3/L4 work as your fitness improves but it's not necessary to ride L5 to see your L3/L4 power improve. For that matter even after months of dedicated L3/L4 training with nary an L5 session I still see my L5 power rise when I get around to testing or get pushed hard for 3 to 8 minutes during a race. Push up works.

Dave,
Thanks for the responses. Your posts are incredibly informing. Its packed with information. It reads like a textbook, I often find myself rereading your responses to make sure I got everything. I did what you told me to do. I took it easy on the bike today. I racked up under 50 Bikescore. Took it easy for about an hour at 120 watts (L2), just to keep the legs spinning. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to hammer out another 2x20. Friday will probably be a completely off the bike day. And Saturday if it isn't too cold, I may join the group. It'll probably be around 30 degrees, still debating if that's cold or not on a bike. If nothing else I may stay indoors and do a 90 min tempo.

Swampy,
I can't wait to start racing. My goals are definitely to stay with the group the whole time and not get spit out the back. Hopefully I'll be able to get my 10 races in and upgrade.

Thanks all.

Uh, FYI "the" StL area "season" "started" 8 weeks ago.

The first race (Froze Toes) was 4 weeks from when you let that post rip.

Your short hard..

oh forget it. It's just too much.

You can't piece together a program off internet message boards or out of a magazine.

Do you even hAve a license yet?
Is it valid?
Have you read the USACycling Rule Book?
Are you registered for Hillsboro?

Just for giggles, when does "the StL area season" end?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

If you're not reliably coming to the finishing laps in pretty good shape and able to get at least near the front at will then all the one minute power or 5 seconds of sprinting in the world isn't likely to do you much good. You've got to go the distance without being pushed to your absolute limit if you want to have a chance at the final lap and the podium.

I'm not so sure on that last sentence, Dave. I'm sure there's many a race been won by guys who have been pegged a few times at 1,000+ watts in the last 10 minutes when fighting for the right wheel. It all depends on the level youre racing at - I don't expect Cat 2 and below to be repeatedly putting out earth shattering efforts in the finale but the faster lads in Cat1 and Pro ranks will probably have to go absolute full gas several times on the run in and it becomes a trade off between freshness Vs position.

Some of the power outputs that have been shared for TdF finales have been downright freaking scary... but that's why they earn the big bucks, right 😉 I recall a plot of Greipels efforts in a Tour de Backobeyond and he hit 1500watts about 6 times for at least 10 seconds each time in the last 5km. Farking ouch.

No doubt you have to put it all out to win a race. I'm talking about the typical packfill lower category rider that hangs on to the tail end of the pack by the skin of his teeth for the whole race, comes into the final two hundred meters thirty riders deep and then complains that his 'sprint' needs more work. I hear it a lot from newer racers and see posts to that effect here and on other boards. You've got to have the fitness to put yourself in position to sprint before you can utilize your sprint and if you can't reliably get to the finishing laps somewhere near the front then IMO your training time is better spent working on that then doing a lot of dedicated sprint work.

You can bet Greipels, Boonen or other sprinters with incredible finishing power have both the fitness and team mates to ensure that they're in position to use that power when it counts. Most lower category amateurs lack the team mates(who will actually make the necessary sacrifice for them) and often lack the fitness to even get into a decent position at the finish but wonder why they can't 'sprint'.

For the OP looking towards his first races and at the start of what we both know to be a steep learning curve I'd definitely try to raise that FTP before I transitioned to short hard intervals and sprint work. You've got to get to the final laps with the pack before you can fight for a good position in the final kilometers and only then might your sprint work pay off.

-Dave

With a big FTP, who needs a sprint :P

You guys are absolutely right, in my experience the pace gets so high at the end of a race, all the sprint training in the world won't help if you don't have the legs to stay at the front of the bunch until 200 to go. Better off working on FTP and a bit of 1-3min power and getting to the point where you can do turns on the front and also have a good crack at breaking away from the bunch.

I've seen plenty of occasions where a rider's been strong enough to go on early on the last lap with a big kick and stay away.

Besides, u might be able to sprint but that won't help you're TT'ing or hill climbing, which are usally also important in bike racing.

I agree with other posters here, do FTP work to raise your strength in your category and keep doing it until you're really peaking with the trraining time you have. If you notice a lack of punchiness, do a V02 session every week. In terms of sprint training, work on your sprinting technique (getting power from pulling on drops and get used to timing this at 120rpm), maybe do sessions like the one in this post cyclingtipsblog.comcavs perfect sprint techniqueOpen ↗, but don't let it slow your FTP progress.

I reckon it's more fun when you can inflict pain on others by attacking hard and making them work. and if you can get over hills then u'll be in a more select group in a hilly race for the final sprint.

Just to update everybody on the training...
I've been doing a lot of 2x20's this last month. (3x week) easy L2 and tempo rides for short durations mixed in. I haven't really done any VO2 max work.

Today I tried testing my FTP again. I started with a light warmup followed by a 5min blowout effort. Then started the 20min effort.
I started the 20min effort way to strong. And actually stopped after 6 minutes... I hate 20min test.

Previously my best 20 min effort was 210 watts.
My best 5 min was 220 watts.

Today I managed 260 watts on my 5 min effort. As for the 20 min effort I was trying to hold 240 watts but faded fast after the 6th minute. My 5 min power now puts me in the 3.95 kg/w range. Hopefully this also meant my FTP went up some.

Is it okay to start ticking up the wattage on my 20 min intervals without a formal 20 min test to verify the FTP? Currenty I have goldencheetah set at 203 for my FTP. And I ride my 20 min intervals at 195-205.

Thanks.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Mac_Biker [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

...Is it okay to start ticking up the wattage on my 20 min intervals without a formal 20 min test to verify the FTP? ...

Absolutely, that's the basic premise of training 'with' power instead of training 'by' power or IOW, training 'descriptively' instead of 'prescriptively'. As long as you can complete the training efforts and aren't so wiped out that you can't mentally or physically bounce back for subsequent days in your program there's nothing wrong with bumping the power up as your fitness improves.

This is a hard concept for many folks to grasp, especially if they've done a lot of HR training with clearly defined workout zones. One big difference is that your HR zones often won't change much over time at least after you've got a few months of training under your belt. But the entire point of training is to increase your sustainable power so your power levels should change if your training plan is effective and you couple it with sufficient rest and good nutrition. So power training levels are expected to change over time and you don't need a formal test to bump the power up a notch on days when you feel good. A good strategy is to try increasing power on the final interval of a set or for the second half of the final interval instead of trying to hammer out a record power number on the first and then not being able to complete the session.

On a similar topic, what you describe with testing and trying for too much is common, it's actually really common for folks learning to time trial, go out the gate wayyyyy too hot, fade badly to regroup and then maybe punch the finish but end up with a much lower overall power than they'd be capable of with more pacing discipline. Next time you test try to ride the first five minutes at or better yet a few watts below your previous best 20 minute average power. Starting five to ten watts below seems like you'll get a low number but if you really have improved or even stayed the same you'll almost certainly make it up during the final 15 minutes of the effort. So hold back for five minutes and then ride it as best you can to the finish. It takes practice and some faith to approach record attempts or time trials like this but it's almost always a better strategy than burying yourself at the start and blowing up. Remember you're trying to assess your best 'sustainable power' as that's what FTP represents so don't blow it by digging a big anaerobic hole at the start.

-Dave

After a hard ride last Saturday. I took Sunday off. Just 20 mins on the trainer to stretch the legs. Today I did a 2x20 on the trainer. I felt really strong. The first set I did at a PR of 224 watts. The second one, I took it easy at 210 watts.

My FTP is now around 213 or so. That puts me at 3.23 w/kg. My 5 minute effort is at 260 watts now which puts me in the 3.95 w/kg for 5 minutes.

My first crit is in a couple of weeks. I attended a racing class (classroom instruction) with the local bike shop last night. He believes a good gauge to measure yourself is actually MPH. Wattage he says is okay. But real world speeds matter! Bike handling and what not.

I believe it's time to start incorporating faster intervals. What kind of intervals should I be doing for crits? I plan on doing them 1x/week for now. If the Crit is on Saturday? Would I rest Friday and do the intervals on Thursday?

I'm thinking I need a lot of short accelerations. So possibly working on my 1 minute power. Maybe up to 3 minute power. I'm going to start practicing cornering on the course also. The course is a park in front of my home.

If you're really eager to start doing crit specific speed work then I'd highly recommend some form of microintervals as they're a great way to introduce riding dynamics, rapid muscle recruitment, and recovery in motion between subsequent bursts. IMO, it's a much smarter move for you than traditional L6 work and will continue to directly build your FTP while introducing some high end bursts. Microintervals can be done many different ways and can be tailored to the particulars of your courses but here's a basic set I've had good success with and a good place to start. Basically get warmed up and then try the following: - Ramp up to a sustainable mid Tempo pace so from what you described above something around 180 watts or so. - Every two minutes burst up to 300-350 watts for ten to fifteen seconds - Immediately drop back down and get back to your base power(e.g. 180 watts) as quickly as possible - Continue the pattern for an hour or more if you can. At the beginning a full hour like this will probably be very taxing both mentally and physically so break it down into long intervals if necessary but try to go for at least 20 minutes per interval with 5 to 10 minutes of easy spinning between each interval. The average power for a set like that should be up into high Tempo or low Threshold range depending on the base power you choose and how hard you hit the bursts. If you're struggling badly and don't think you'll get to at least twenty minutes then you can stretch the period between bursts to perhaps 3 or 4 minutes till you start to recover a bit. If these feel too easy you can: burst more often, make the bursts longer or harder or you can raise the base power. These are a great way to introduce more dynamic riding and some high end efforts while still providing really good Threshold training. -Dave