FT Test Question

There's a few approaches you can try:

- Do a MAP test and estimate your FTP as somewhere in the range of 72-77% of MAP per Ric Stern's guidelines: http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=112 I'd recommend the non-elite ramp rate of 25 watts per minute unless you happen to be a national class rider.

- Do some long Threshold training intervals in the 20 - 30 minute range starting at a level you think you can complete and increment or decrement the level as necessary for subsequent intervals and over subsequent days. So for instance maybe do one at 200 watts or 250 watts or whatever you have reason to believe you can hold for 20+ minutes. Adjust as necessary based on whether you blow before finishing the effort or feel like you could easily have done more. It'll probably take several sessions over maybe a week or two to dial in the best power level but it's a very good way to find out what you can actually do during regular Threshold training intervals and a good way to estimate FTP. If you use another testing method you'll still end up following some version of this trial and error procedure to do your actual training as fitness levels change over time and the power levels aren't set in stone.

- Do a slow ramp starting at what you expect to be Tempo power, incrementing in say 10 watt steps every five minutes or so. You'll narrow down the range of your FTP very quickly as you go from what feels easily sustainable for long periods to what you can't even sustain for five minutes. Subsequent 'tests' can narrow this range further but it'll tell you very quickly what's easy, what's moderate, and what's just not going to happen without further training.

Regardless of the method you use, it's likely that your indoor and outdoor power numbers will differ but since your not training outdoors with a power meter you won't know for certain and to some extent it doesn't matter. Just do the work at the best hard but sustainable intensity you can manage do enough of this kind of work, get enough recovery between hard sessions and fuel yourself well and progress will come.

Here's some good reading on ways to estimate FTP that can be applied to your trainer scenario:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/07/sins-of-sins-testing-ftp-2.html

But the bottom line is that it's not always easy nor necessary to do a carefully structured 'test' to determine FTP. Figuring out your sustainable power and FTP via trial and error at sucessively higher power levels over time is a very pragmatic approach and in the end what most folks end up doing as their fitness changes over time. You don't need an exact FTP number to guide training, you just need to do good solid quality work at near your best possible intensity for the chosen durations but backed off enough to be able to finish the intervals, finish the sessions, and to recovery well enough mentally and physically to train on subsequent days. Whether you do this on an ergometer that controls power levels or a fixed resistance mode trainer where you control power through cadence and gearing isn't really that important as long as you understand an exact FTP number doesn't have to fall out of a single dedicated test.

-Dave

Thanks Dave for taking the time to share this info. Really good reading here.

This is all relatively new for me so I was seeking that "FTP number" so I could set up actual training zones. I'm really not 100% sure where I'm at on that scale. But I see where you coming from as that info is not the end all, be all measure.

At this point I can honestly say that i could hold 205 watts for 30 minutes, grinding out the last couple minutes. I could most likely pull 215 for 20min. You can see I'd like to start to elevate these numbers.

"- Do a slow ramp starting at what you expect to be Tempo power, incrementing in say 10 watt steps every five minutes or so. You'll narrow down the range of your FTP very quickly as you go from what feels easily sustainable for long periods to what you can't even sustain for five minutes. Subsequent 'tests' can narrow this range further but it'll tell you very quickly what's easy, what's moderate, and what's just not going to happen without further training."

This week is my "easy" week as my last 3 weeks have been pretty tough. good week to do some testing. I'll start with the above @ 205W and ramp from there.

I'm sure I'll come away with a pretty good snapshot of where I'm at.

Thanks again Dave, greatly appreciated.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

There's a few approaches you can try:

- Do a MAP test and estimate your FTP as somewhere in the range of 72-77% of MAP per Ric Stern's guidelines: http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=112 I'd recommend the non-elite ramp rate of 25 watts per minute unless you happen to be a national class rider.

- Do some long Threshold training intervals in the 20 - 30 minute range starting at a level you think you can complete and increment or decrement the level as necessary for subsequent intervals and over subsequent days. So for instance maybe do one at 200 watts or 250 watts or whatever you have reason to believe you can hold for 20+ minutes. Adjust as necessary based on whether you blow before finishing the effort or feel like you could easily have done more. It'll probably take several sessions over maybe a week or two to dial in the best power level but it's a very good way to find out what you can actually do during regular Threshold training intervals and a good way to estimate FTP. If you use another testing method you'll still end up following some version of this trial and error procedure to do your actual training as fitness levels change over time and the power levels aren't set in stone.

- Do a slow ramp starting at what you expect to be Tempo power, incrementing in say 10 watt steps every five minutes or so. You'll narrow down the range of your FTP very quickly as you go from what feels easily sustainable for long periods to what you can't even sustain for five minutes. Subsequent 'tests' can narrow this range further but it'll tell you very quickly what's easy, what's moderate, and what's just not going to happen without further training.

Regardless of the method you use, it's likely that your indoor and outdoor power numbers will differ but since your not training outdoors with a power meter you won't know for certain and to some extent it doesn't matter. Just do the work at the best hard but sustainable intensity you can manage do enough of this kind of work, get enough recovery between hard sessions and fuel yourself well and progress will come.

Here's some good reading on ways to estimate FTP that can be applied to your trainer scenario:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/07/sins-of-sins-testing-ftp-2.html

But the bottom line is that it's not always easy nor necessary to do a carefully structured 'test' to determine FTP. Figuring out your sustainable power and FTP via trial and error at sucessively higher power levels over time is a very pragmatic approach and in the end what most folks end up doing as their fitness changes over time. You don't need an exact FTP number to guide training, you just need to do good solid quality work at near your best possible intensity for the chosen durations but backed off enough to be able to finish the intervals, finish the sessions, and to recovery well enough mentally and physically to train on subsequent days. Whether you do this on an ergometer that controls power levels or a fixed resistance mode trainer where you control power through cadence and gearing isn't really that important as long as you understand an exact FTP number doesn't have to fall out of a single dedicated test.

-Dave

+1 on this

I just asked a similar question on the wattage list and as a noob, I am enjoying the trial and error method (though I got a few "just run the test" emails). There are also aspects that I like a lot better, in the sense that if you have a bad day, your ranges are shot and 20 minutes is a long interval on the trainer to me. I need distraction. But I'm also a noob.

Using a guesstimate combined with HR plus PE, I just ran an SST workout, and based on what the time in zone histogram on GC looked like (a pyramid with the peak on the line between tempo and L4), I think I am within 10 watts or so. The it's killing me thread was also a really big help (and damned inspirational). And besides, it seems to me that pacing is the key to the 20 minute interval, which being new to power I could only learn by looking at numbers from earlier rides to get an idea of where I will have to target my efforts. I eventually will test it once I roll outside, but I have now begun to see how I could train with a power meter all winter, target FTP, and never do any formal "testing". Or, put another way, if training is testing and testing is training, you pretty much get results every time.

You would not take a first grader and make them take a 3 hour final that determines their semester grades. It's the difference between getting grades based on a final, and based on a series of weekly quizzes with a couple of midterms through the course of the semester. The quizzes better prepare you for taking midterms. And midterms prepare you for finals.

I agree for sure... This is how I approached my week of science projects. I decided to do the MAP test mostly out of curiosity and I'd like to be able to measure progress in the future.

I started a 100 watts, with my lovely wife's assistance she increased my wattage +5 every 12 seconds. In the end my legs caved at 315 watts. (I guessed 305)

75%= FTP 236

85%= 200
90%= 210
95%= 225

*I've rounded these numbers as my Ergo bike only moves in increments of 5watts.

rested up and decided to try my first ever 2X20 @ 200 watts 5min RBI.

The first 20 minutes I was able to hold 90-93 rpm. I wasn't ripping it up it was a nice pace, I felt like i was riding on that light burn.

The second 20 I was able to maintain 90-93 for about 5-7 minutes and then the work started. I was grinding out the last 5 minutes @ 83-85 rpm and my legs were pretty freakin heavy.

really nice workout! I think for me this is a great 2x20 wattage moving forward.

Messing around, I'm finding that 210 I can hold for 20 and I'm cooked and 225 for around 8-10.

So, moving forward I'm going to add these 2X20 @85% 200watts twice a week.

Sound about right?

I'll just listen to my body and progress up the wattage ladder as I feel ready.

After performing all these mini test's I can really see how this is a day to day, week by week process. It's been a fun week but now it's time to get back to work.

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

1k2go

Looks like we're in the same position. I'm also working on my 2x20's. I try to hang onto about 200 watts also.
Today is a rest day, but I'll pick up on it again tomorrow. I'm thinking that I'll need to retest at some point.
Good luck on your first season, it'll be my first too!

BTW: I don't really watch my cadence. At this point it's low, but when I'm on a group ride, they always go up automatically.
On the trainer I'm always in the big ring, and in the groups, I tend to ride both the small and large. Usually I'm at 80 or so RPM on the trainer.
90+ outside in the group. I'll probably start incorporating cadence work at one point, maybe on my L2/L3 days.

Thanks for the input Mac, Best of luck to you as well.

1K, I would be interested to know what your HR is doing during those 20 min sessions? How does this compare with what HR you can maintain during a 20 min session on a fluid trainer or outside on a flat road? I am in a similar situation in the sense that I have access to a Cycleopps trainer with a power meter at my LB. I did the CTS test which bases your LT off of what you can average over a 8 min steady interval, you also record your average HR. Your average wattage and average HR over the 8 min is then your 100%, you then use this information to come up with your different training levels. Since I don't have a power meter to gage my training off of at home I use my HR. I know that you are set to a wattage, so it is not similar, but I guess my point is, an awareness in your HR can go a long way. I noticed that the data gathered from the CTS test corresponds very well with the HR that I typically see when training. For instance my FTP is suppose to be somewhere around 90%, which is 155-160 bpm, a HR between 155-160 bpm is about what I can hold for 1 hr at home. I am not saying the way you did it is wrong at all, the numbers seem fairly reasonable. I will say that when I do my 2x20 I am barely hanging on for the entire 20 minutes of the first one and for the 2nd I am certain that 60% of the time my wattage is lower because my HR is 3-5 bpm lower. I personally think that if you can hold 210 for 20 minutes then give that a shot on the 1st interval and then back it down to 200 for the second.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

... I personally think that if you can hold 210 for 20 minutes then give that a shot on the 1st interval and then back it down to 200 for the second.

Conventional training wisdom would recommend the opposite approach. Hold back a bit on your first effort and ramp it up if possible on your second effort. When you get your hands on a power meter for training you'll likely see that digging deep towards the top end of L4 on the first effort almost always results in the second effort being down in Tempo or below regardless of how your heart responds to the second interval.

Good quality for the entire session is the goal and most athlete's achieve that by holding back a bit on their first effort so they can hit the second effort with sufficient focus and intensity.

-Dave

I guess my thought was these are suppose to be 20 min intervals and the intesity of the single interval itself is what was important. I know quite a few people who do not even do the second interval, but just put it all "out there" on the first interval. I am certain that atleast 60% of the time my output is not what it is on the 1st interval, I can tell by looking at my HR and the fact that I cannot maintain the same speed on my fluid trainer (often .5 mph lower). Maybe I will hold a little back on the 1st and see how I feel after the workouts.

Bgoetz- I've done the CTS field test a couple times prior to getting the Ergo bike and introducing wattage into the game.

My avg. HR for the 8 min was 168bpm.

The 2x20 @200 watts my HR was around 155-160. As Dave mentioned, it was on the higher side the second 20.

So I was running @ 85% of my FTP and between 90-95% of my HR LT. I'm really not paying any attention to HR unless I'm in overload mode. I'm really focusing on my wattage and steadily raising my ftp.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I guess my thought was these are suppose to be 20 min intervals and the intesity of the single interval itself is what was important. I know quite a few people who do not even do the second interval, but just put it all "out there" on the first interval. I am certain that atleast 60% of the time my output is not what it is on the 1st interval, I can tell by looking at my HR and the fact that I cannot maintain the same speed on my fluid trainer (often .5 mph lower). Maybe I will hold a little back on the 1st and see how I feel after the workouts.

I gotta go with Dave on this one as well. Your 2nd interval should be your higher intensity. As you get into cycling more, you'll realize that it takes a while for your legs to warm up properly, and be able to put out more power or sustain it. For me, I need to go at normal intensity (L3/L4) for minimum of 20 mins, and that's after a quick 10 min 'warm-up', before I start feeling good.

-Greg

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I guess my thought was these are suppose to be 20 min intervals and the intesity of the single interval itself is what was important. I know quite a few people who do not even do the second interval, but just put it all "out there" on the first interval. ..

Yeah, no doubt there are many that don't do the second or third effort or those who are focused on chasing records during every session so that they kill one interval and don't have much left. But there's definitely a school of thought that suggests the work you do after pre-fatiguing your muscles is the most valuable in terms of stressing your system and encouraging the desired adaptations. From that standpoint the final interval(s) in a set are the most important in terms of training value.

The other thing to remember is that RPE and in many cases HR response increases for the same absolute intensity during the latter intervals in a set. IOW, even if you pace them both with a power meter or on a programmed ergometer to the same power the second, third or final intervals are likely to hurt a lot more and often will result in higher HR for the same sustained power. This is especially true for shorter intervals like five minute VO2 Max work where HR and RPE typically increase from interval to interval but it tends to happen for longer L4 intervals as well. So if you kill the first one and accept lower HR and or lower RPE for the second or third you're almost certainly backing down a lot more than you think.

I used to struggle a lot trying to keep a lid on the first effort so that I could do decent work on the second or third. I've gotten better with careful attention to the first five or six minutes of each interval to make sure it's performed at a solid but sustainable pace that feels 'steady hard' but not brutal. If I feel great after that break in period I don't hesitate to ramp it up a bit but I try to pay close attention to how hard I'm working and to remember that I've got one or two more coming. On the final effort I still pay attention to pacing the start (a lot easier with some fatigue in my legs) but if I still feel good I'll give it everything for the final 10 or 15 minutes in say a 20 minute effort.

I've also found longer Threshold efforts are really good from a discipline standpoint If I'm doing a 2x40 set of L4 efforts or a full 1x60 minute Threshold interval it's much easier to keep a lid on things since I'll realize pretty quickly that I'm blowing it and won't stand a chance at finishing the efforts if I'm breathing maximally or digging deep for every watt in the first ten minutes. Just knowing I'm setting out to ride up to a full hour without a break at Threshold pace helps me pace the effort and every minute that passes I know I'm racking up more and more quality time without having to worry about the next interval.

Nothing wrong with the occasional record chasing session followed by Tempo to fill out the workouut but if you're going to do 2x20 efforts it really pays to do two good quality efforts not one and limping along to finish the second.

-Dave