BASE BUILDING

Not being critical of you as this is your first time.

But I see quite a lot of planning going into the training but no mention of what you are training for. The goal event and your current ability to meet the goal requirements dictates what type of training you do.

So before you plan how much L3 time you will clock up you need to ask: what are the demands of the event and where am I currently at in relation to those demands?

In Denmark training through the winter I assume you will be doing a lot of this indoors?

My goal is to win races in the range 100-120 km at a pace around 40 km/h - (D-class i Denmark). But as you say this is my first year and therefore i do not know my strengths and weekneses. Also i do not know how much basetraining (hrs/week) i needed to compete in the D-class. After the base training my plan is to use the 12 weeks to my first peak (including a few races) to add some more intensity into the workouts.

About the weather then you are right - denmark is not very nice in the winter months [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] my best guess is that half of the training will have to be done indoors.

Good information on the races. Do you know what types of courses, terrain, technicality, field sizes, typical weather, previous history of key events (ie split to million pieces or a procession ending in a field sprint)?

Based on these things where do you think your strengths and weaknesses "might" be?

One obvious thing is these events will take around 3 hours to complete. Do you think you have the endurance to go hard for 3 hours?

One thing that a lot of new racers have trouble with is the attacks/accelerations. Even a long road race will involve attacks, as someone is going to want to try to get away or shatter the field. So positioning matters, and having the training to go really hard for a short time to respond to those attacks (and maybe cover gaps as the field starts to shatter) and then recover at speed. This is the type of work I am assuming you are planning to do during your 12 week phase.

Your base building needs to be enough to build your aerobic engine and get you ready to put in the kind of intensity you need/want later. I can't tell you how much this is, because to some extent it depends on what kind of base you are carrying over from last season and from the summer (if you haven't been riding much, you really need to spend some time getting kms in your legs, if you have been consistently doing high volume weeks, you might not need much of a base-building phase at all).

Somewhere in there you are going to want to work on increasing your LT. The races you are targeting are pretty long, and you may find yourself working near your LT for a lot of it. I would probably dedicate a month or so to "threshold intervals" between your base-building phase and your VO2max phase.

Also, even when you are "finished" with base building, I would recommend getting at least one long endurance ride in per week. You need to keep that engine used to long rides (helps train your body to metabolize fuel efficiently, and will make the saddle time during your race less mentally daunting). Just remember that even if a ride doesn't include tons of intensity, a long ride can take a while to recover from, so schedule at least one rest day between a long endurance ride and an intensity session (and eat well right after a workout to speed recovery).

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

One thing that a lot of new racers have trouble with is the attacks/accelerations. Even a long road race will involve attacks, as someone is going to want to try to get away or shatter the field.

An even bigger problem for new racers, or us old folk returning to the sport, is trouble with responding to repeated attacks. It's not the first attack that'll get you - it's the third or fourth.

Sure you can try and minimize it by good positioning and tactics but at somepoint you're gonna have to do a bunch of short hard interval work with minimal recovery inbetween. I always found that the great gains from that work was pretty short lived unless I had a big base of hard 2+ hour work in the legs but that may/may not be the case for most people.

Getting with some higher quality riders or a good coach and learning some really good bike handling skills is very highly recommended. If you can corner really well, you can save a fair bit of effort from not having to jump as hard out of corners

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by fergie [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Good information on the races. Do you know what types of courses, terrain, technicality, field sizes, typical weather, previous history of key events (ie split to million pieces or a procession ending in a field sprint)?

Based on these things where do you think your strengths and weaknesses "might" be?

One obvious thing is these events will take around 3 hours to complete. Do you think you have the endurance to go hard for 3 hours?

In the D-class most races tend to end in a field sprint. My goal, however, is to make it to the C-class fairly quickly where most races are split to pieces - the last 5 races have been won by breakaways. All races are held in Denmark where everything is very flat - the hardest hill in my area is Vissenbjergbakken with 26 meters of hight [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] Sometimes they make crits including small hills to make the terrain a little harder but the hills will seldom last longer than 5 min. The average field is 20-50 riders.

Before i started cycling i've been playing both handball and badminton and done some strenght training. Therefore my sprints are pretty good - last training i beat a B-class rider in the sprint. As to the endurance i am able to complete 4,5 hrs of training but after that im wasted for at least a day and i would not be able to make a decent sprint after 3 hrs of hard pace. When i compare myself to the other guys on the team i'm able to keep up with their hard pace for up to 3-4 min but then my legs starts to burn (i feel i still have breath) and i have to let go.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG] So positioning matters, and having the training to go really hard for a short time to respond to those attacks (and maybe cover gaps as the field starts to shatter) and then recover at speed. This is the type of work I am assuming you are planning to do during your 12 week phase.

Yes exactly. Do you know any good sources for information on laying such program? - the 'BASE buidling' book did not cover much of that [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
I can't tell you how much this is, because to some extent it depends on what kind of base you are carrying over from last season and from the summer (if you haven't been riding much, you really need to spend some time getting kms in your legs, if you have been consistently doing high volume weeks, you might not need much of a base-building phase at all).

I started riding very unstructured in may about 5 hrs/week with high intensity. This continued until start sep where i started longer rides and increased duration to 10 hrs/week, so my base should be pretty weak.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Somewhere in there you are going to want to work on increasing your LT. The races you are targeting are pretty long, and you may find yourself working near your LT for a lot of it. I would probably dedicate a month or so to "threshold intervals" between your base-building phase and your VO2max phase.

As you can see in the program I have included some L3 and L4 intervals. Is that too early or should i increase amount/intensity?

A little bit off topic but it sort of fits this thread. I have a question on base building....

What's up with base building? That's my question.

Let's assume we've all put in thousands and thousands of km (or miles) over the season. So why do base building work in the winter months - don't we already have a good base? Why not just focus directly on intervals?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by numminummi [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I started riding very unstructured in may about 5 hrs/week with high intensity. This continued until start sep where i started longer rides and increased duration to 10 hrs/week, so my base should be pretty weak.

As you can see in the program I have included some L3 and L4 intervals. Is that too early or should i increase amount/intensity?

5hrs/week for most of the summer and a couple of months of 10hrs/week is not much of a base, so in your case, before starting much high intensity training, I agree that you should build your base. I wouldn't do much threshold work during your base building phase because it will just wear you out to the point where you will have to stop, whereas your goal should be getting those miles under your belt. So 3+ hr rides a couple times a week, and 2+ hr rides a couple times a week ridden at 60% or so of your threshold (a sustainable pace, but not so easy that you aren't tired when you get home!) would be my recommendation for a couple more months Nov/Dec. That should give you ~1500 more endurance ("base"😉 miles in your legs. If the weather cooperates such that you can do these rides outdoors you will be much happier because long rides indoors are not much fun!

Starting race training in January is pretty standard - ok, I mean that is what I am planning for myself, I am not about to speak for everyone :-)

My personal training plan looks like a mix of low cadence hill climbs (Tues/Thurs), Speed work on sat (short fast intervals), and an endurance ride on sunday Jan and Feb. Then in March I will transition to threshold work, and VO2 max work starts in April/May and continues for much of the regular season. If you want to forgo the low cadence work, you can start your threshold work in January. Two months of threshold work (maybe 2x20s 2-3xs week - depending on if you want one day per week of speed work - and at least one long endurance ride) followed by 2 months of Vo2 work should put you in pretty good shape at the start of the spring races.

When spring comes and the weather allows you to get out on the road again, try to dedicate one day per week to "skills work" - cornering, riding shoulder to shoulder with a partner, bumping, etc. If you can find experienced racers to work with, try things like bridging, attacking, (basically practice your "jump"😉 as well as learning how to hold a wheel in a race, take a wheel, etc. Once you have the fitness to mix it up in a race and not get dropped, honing these "skills" will be the difference between winning and losing.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Yojimbo_ [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

A little bit off topic but it sort of fits this thread. I have a question on base building....

What's up with base building? That's my question.

Let's assume we've all put in thousands and thousands of km (or miles) over the season. So why do base building work in the winter months - don't we already have a good base? Why not just focus directly on intervals?

I am with you on this point to some extent. If you have a solid base (as many of us do, myself included) you can definitely focus on intervals during the winter.

However, come spring, a lot of folks spend a lot of training days doing hard intervals and racing, precluding, to some extent, those long rides. Winter, can be a good time to get in those long rides that the spring racing/training schedule doesn't allow for. I don't call those "base miles", but instead "endurance miles". I try to work endurance miles into my training when I can, as beneficial physiological adaptations are made by riding below threshold for 3+ hrs.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by CalicoCat [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I don't call those "base miles", but instead "endurance miles". I try to work endurance miles into my training when I can, as beneficial physiological adaptations are made by riding below threshold for 3+ hrs.

Can you expand with more specific numbers?
Do you stay within a range like the metabolic adaptation chart, such as, near 80 to 90% of FT claims to have the biggest bang for the buck for adaptations? Or are you saying that your range is 3+ hours is any ratio time in L1 to 99% of FT?

Over the course of the ride, average watts are about 65-75% of LT. There will be times in the ride (hills, feeling good, etc) that I am much closer to threshold, and of course times (going downhill, approaching a red light, or cornering for example) that I am not even pedaling.

If you spend long hours in the saddle, you will really train your body to utilize fuel efficiently (I can easily ride 100mi on a bowl of cereal before ride, and a couple shot blocks and half a cliff bar during the ride and still finish strong). This type of adaptation isn't made as well in shorter intensity sessions, but is beneficial for a long road race where you might have a chance to swallow a gel or two if you are lucky!

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate ALL endurance work! Most of my work during the season is threshold and above. But I do try to incorporate at least one long ride per week into my training schedule. And this time of year when I am not in competition and it is too early to start hard training (now until december) it is flip-flopped, with mostly endurance rides and at least one day per week of intensity (and some cross-training thrown in there).

Okay...thanks for the clarification.

I received an email for part of my group wanting to know the plan for Saturday. I responded letting them know my intentions for Saturday's 3 to 4 hour ride. The past couple of weeks I have stayed in the group with what was supposed to be "winter pace - typically a 16 mph avg. over 60 to 70 miles", but we had moments that pulled me up into L7. I let them know that I am not doing that again. Mainly because it screwed up my planned solo training for Sunday.

I have a feeling my response back to the group is going to have me riding solo on Saturday as well. But the bottom line it has to work for me and their L3 is like my L5 so I don't expect them to ride that slow. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

So you have a group of cycling mates who are just that little bit better than you that you can still ride with them but it's hard work and you're throwing that away to ride to ride based on some idea of what your power meter is telling you to do?

I think you're crazy, you should be training with power, not enslaved to some zones. Moments in zone 7 will not hurt you at all (they will probably have limited useful training benefit to your zone 7 power in 6 months time) but they will not hurt your training. Giving that up to ride solo will much more likely hurt you as boredom forces you to different intensities and you work less hard with the percieved effort of solo riding being higher.

To race, you also need to learn everything about the non power side of racing and continuing bunch rides is better than nothing for that.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
I received an email for part of my group wanting to know the plan for Saturday. I responded letting them know my intentions for Saturday's 3 to 4 hour ride. The past couple of weeks I have stayed in the group with what was supposed to be "winter pace - typically a 16 mph avg. over 60 to 70 miles", but we had moments that pulled me up into L7. I let them know that I am not doing that again. Mainly because it screwed up my planned solo training for Sunday.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

So you have a group of cycling mates who are just that little bit better than you that you can still ride with them but it's hard work and you're throwing that away to ride to ride based on some idea of what your power meter is telling you to do?

I think you're crazy, you should be training with power, not enslaved to some zones. Moments in zone 7 will not hurt you at all (they will probably have limited useful training benefit to your zone 7 power in 6 months time) but they will not hurt your training. Giving that up to ride solo will much more likely hurt you as boredom forces you to different intensities and you work less hard with the percieved effort of solo riding being higher.

To race, you also need to learn everything about the non power side of racing and continuing bunch rides is better than nothing for that.

Thanks
I don't race....well not officially. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] I am just a recreational rider that takes training a bit more serious than the average recreational rider.

The reason that I would like to not get into L7 is because I am trying to follow some structure and it is/was evident that the 11 minutes that I was in L7 last Saturday did impact my training session on Sunday. It was just personal preference that my solo Sunday training session meant more to me than the group ride. For a recreational level rider and sometime ride leader I have gained enough group experience and have learned a lot over the past couple of years so I am content with dropping out and work exclusively on the aerobic portion that I lack.

I have entrusted the advice of two well known people on this board to stay the course and follow a particular regiment through the winter and ride at or near the sweet spot for the sustained periods of time. I also have one local friend that is above the level of any in my group and he is also telling me the same thing. He was on a ride with me two months ago and was not impressed with the sprint and coast style of the group and said it would probably be better for me to ride in or near the L3 to L4 zones for the 3+ hours.

It is just a time where I need to step out and trust this advice and see what happens. I can say this for the two on this board that have advised me that your advice is working really well. My sustainable power is getting better each week.

To my previous comment stating that I would be riding solo Saturday, well one of the main players in the group called me after I responded and he talked me into to joining them again. I will be riding with them tomorrow, but I really hope to stick to my plan. He told me that he plans to ride down at my level, but I saw some of the other people on the email list and there were some fast people on the list so I know it is going to get crazy. I always have the option of dropping off the back and that is what I will do if it turns into a hammerfest.

I like what my advanced level friend told me on one of those types of rides when the hammering started. He looked over at me and said, "Its not that I can't, its that I don't want too." I knew he had the ability to drop everyone of the group members, but he stayed with his prescribed zones. He told me before the ride that he would end with 0.65 IF and sure enough later that day he sent me his data and he had 0.65 IF.

I know what I am doing is not for everyone, but it is just a season that I need to see what this structure will yield next season. I am already hearing comments from group members stating, "I don't what your are doing, but it seems to be working." They have seen a change in that I am up in the front pulling solid for longer periods.

Thanks though

Felt, your group ride experience all sounds familar to me. Around here, it's virtually impossible for the ride leader to set a moderate pace, or even control the pace. Gotta love the "winter pace" and other descriptions of a planned moderate-intensity ride. It's almost a joke how experienced ride leaders will advertise and repeat "pace will be a moderate (no-hammer) 16-17 mph" as we're about to go, then 10 minutes down the road the front pack is rolling at 20-24 mph and attacking out of the turns and up hills.

If I'm feeling good and rested, and ready for a hard workout, I'll go and hang with the front group as long as possible; sometimes that's just 20 minutes, other times maybe as much as an hour, but I'm going to get dropped at some point since the front guys are just plain faster riders. The rides usually split pretty quickly into two or three groups, so those of us who are slower just drop back when needed and enjoy the ride. Sometimes we catch up and pass a hotshot or two late in the ride who stayed on the front too long and is then struggling just to finish.....that's always fun.

Maybe it is different around here, and I should feel lucky. We have so many different group rides, each with their own dynamic, that if I want to hammer, or ride in a fast aggressive pack to simulate race situations, there are rides for that. If I want a nice steady-paced no-drop ride through the countryside, there are rides for that. There are even "in-between" rides where the pace isn't blistering like some of the race training rides but there are accelerations and sprints.

The dynamic of these rides has been maintained through the ages, so even when the composition of riders changes, you still know pretty much what you are going to get. We (area cyclists) wake up on weekend mornings, or leave work mid-week, and "choose our poison" so-to-speak, arriving for the ride that best meets our goals, abilities, current motivation level, etc.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
He told me before the ride that he would end with 0.65 IF and sure enough later that day he sent me his data and he had 0.65 IF.

0.65 I don't think I'd bother recording such a ride as training, my HR would be the same as walking around town doing the shopping so the training benefit of it would be virtually nil, I'd certainly need to do an awful lot of it to retain my current finess. But of course everything does depend on your current fitness, with you being relatively untrained of course just about anything works, so do what you enjoy, but please don't give up the group rides if you enjoy them - they're very good training.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

0.65 I don't think I'd bother recording such a ride as training, my HR would be the same as walking around town doing the shopping so the training benefit of it would be virtually nil, I'd certainly need to do an awful lot of it to retain my current finess. But of course everything does depend on your current fitness, with you being relatively untrained of course just about anything works, so do what you enjoy, but please don't give up the group rides if you enjoy them - they're very good training.

Who said he was recording it as a training ride? [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
The only reason he was out riding with our group was that he was doing a recovery ride (and why he did not chase them as well). The only time any of my group can even hang with this guy is when he is doing a recovery ride.