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Weight-Lifting for Legs

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9 September 2010
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Threshold
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  1. I was reading on Cyclingnews.com and I came across this in the Question & Answers section which I found to be helpful. Although I wouldn't do this during the riding months, weight-lifting for the legs (squats, leg presses, etc) is definitely something that I would incorporate into my training schedule during the winter (non-riding) months.

    This is the Q & A:
    Gym work and cycling

    Hi,
    I recently performed a session at the gym doing both squats and inclined single leg presses. Afterwards I suffered from DOMS, however I rode my bike to work and back without the DOMS affecting my cycling at all.
    From this can I conclude that the gym work used parts of my quads that are not used when cycling? And if this is the case, why bother doing these exercises if they do not improve cycling performance?
    Regards,
    Primod
    Scott Saifer says:
    Primod,
    You pose an excellent question. I've used the same argument myself in the past, though I would not today since I've had more opportunities to think about it.
    Since you've done a bit of somewhat scientific testing and jumped to an unjustified conclusion, let me a do a bit of the same before answering your question. I just poked through my data base of current clients and found that roughly 60 percent of my clients include lifting, including squats and leg press in their programs, while 40 percent do not.
    For each of my clients, I collect their highly significant accomplishments, including such things as podium placings. I have another list for smaller accomplishments such as improving training speed or finishing races. Essentially all my clients post at least the lesser type of accomplishment but among the riders who lift, 46 percent have recorded highly significant accomplishments, while only 20 percent of those who don't lift have recorded those highly significant accomplishments. That proves that lifting is very effective in improving cycling, no?
    Actually, it is suggestive but proves nothing. Here's the problem: Many of the ones who don't lift don't lift because they are more pressed for time. The ones who do not lift, in some cases, are more rushed in their daily lives, negatively impacting recovery. Some of the ones who don't lift are just plain less serious about riding.
    The point here is that you sometimes need a deeper understanding before you can draw a valid conclusion from a "scientfic" test. You need to look at the assumptions that go into your conclusion and check whether they are justified.
    So, let's look at your experiment and see what might be going on. You did hard weight lifting and got sore afterwards. You notice the soreness when you move your legs in particular ways and conclude that you feel the soreness when the muscle fibres that were damaged by lifting are activated, and not when they are not.
    That's a reasonable conclusion and as far as I know it's correct, though I don't know that it's ever been tested so there's a possible weak spot in the argument, but let's say we stipulate that. That means that when you rode to and from work and did not experience pain in the worked muscles, you must have been using different fibers. That involves another assumption that may not be justified.
    You've probably noticed that when you are sore in cycling muscles, they often "loosen up" during a ride, and get less sore. That is a central nervous system effect: The brain ignores repeated signals that go on for too long, like learning to ignore background noise or other irrelevant stimuli. It is possible that when the brain sends out a signal for the leg muscles to start pedaling, it turns down the awareness of pain signals from the same muscle. I'm not saying this is the case, but that you are assuming that it is not, and we don't know for sure.
    I don't know if you measured power on your ride, but if you didn't, would you admit that it's possible that power could have been down a few watts even though you didn't feel the soreness in your legs? Did you do repeated sprints on your ride to work? If so, was your power the same as usual? Did you feel the muscles?
    Since lifting calls primarily on fast twitch muscle and fast twitch muscle is minimally recruited during steady state riding, you wouldn't expect steady state riding to make you feel your sore muscles, but you might feel them when sprinting.
    Did you try any multi-minute maximal efforts to failure? Such efforts also call on fast twitch muscle, and have been shown to be positively affected by strength training, at least in certain sports. In particular, strength training has been shown to increase the time that an athlete can maintain a VO2-max level effort.
    What if the brain selectively uses fibres that are not sore in pedaling even though it might have recruited the same fibres when they aren't sore. This is another wild hypothesis and probably wrong according to motor programming theory, but you'd need to check before drawing the conclusion that you've drawn.
    I hope I've convinced you that you've over-generalised from not feeling the leg soreness while pedaling on a particular ride to strength training not helping cycling at all. Here then is a theory that justifies lifting, even if lifting didn't impact your current ride.
    The power of a short sprint or several-minute bit of hard riding depends on what proportion of the muscle fibres in the relevant muscles can be recruited during the effort. Muscle fibres that are rarely recruited have relatively high recruitment thresholds. The brain has to send a very strong signal to trigger those fibres. That ends up feeling like you have to work hard to recruit them. You have to try hard to go that fast or push that hard.
    Muscle fibres that are recruited regularly undergo physiological changes at the motor end-plate (where the nerve attaches to the muscle fibre) that literally makes it possible for a weaker signal from the brain to trigger that fibre. That makes it feel easier to recruit that fibre. If there are fibres that never get used during your regular cycling training, but that could help generate a sprinting or extended VO2-max effort if you could recruit them, lifting is a possible way to reduce their recruitment thresholds enough that you can learn how to use them in hard cycling.
    Riding in very large gears with tremendous resistance could do the same thing, but in a much less controlled way since it's much more challenging to set the resistance when riding a bike than when loading a weight bar. So far as I know, the assumptions in this theory are all justified and the result is consistent with actual practice among racing cyclists.

  2. My conclusion is that I won't be calling Mr Saifer for advice any time in the near future.

  3. http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/475817-wieght-training-cycling.html

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/126133-gyming-improve-power.html

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/475314-weight-training.html

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/471987-your-thoughts-strength-training-legs.html

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/cycling-training/470814-once-more-gyming-improve-power.html

    The 'search this forum' functionality is not a rumor...done to death - and recently, I might add...

  4. A helpful tip ?? Send a private message to Chapeau! . I'm sure he can tell you all about weight lifting for legs.

    Not so sure about the cycling part however. 😕

  5. You could always do what the NZ track sprinter did to aid his performance and get hold of some HGH and EPO, aye Fergs 😉

  6. swampy1970 said:

    You could always do what the NZ track sprinter did to aid his performance and get hold of some HGH and EPO, aye Fergs 😉

    Adam is from Christchurch and it appears he has received some rather unfortunate advice. He alleges that someone at his gym told him the two products he imported were "okay" to use. That's nearly as stupid as getting your info from the web, forums and armchair coaches.

  7. My experience with weight training is as follows. I lifted heavy for 20 years. Cycling was a hobby. Due to an injury the heavy lifting had to stop. Have not weight trained legs for over a year. Dropped 30lbs of muscle. Leg size went down 2.5 inches. Quess what Cycling impoved drastically. I plan on weight training legs this winter but at lower poundages and more reps. Will try to stay at 20 plus reps per set.
    just my 2 cents.

  8. I understand what you guys are saying and I agree that nothing can replace the training for cycling other than cycling iself, which to me is during the riding season (April - November). I was talking more along the lines of when the colder months come (December - March, at least for my area) where there is high possibilities of snow or when it is just so cold out that it becomes hard to breathe due to the cold air drying out your air passages which requires more effort for air flow. Yes, the indoor trainer is a possibility but for the most part, we all know how boring that could be. Last winter I did mostly running on the treadmill and the occasional stepmill and did things like lunges, 2-ft box jumps, invisible chair, etc.

    On top of that for this winter coming up, I thought that maybe putting in some heavy weight training could be of some benefit since I really don't ride much in the winter anyway. None would agree that it would help considering riding isnt much of an option during that time anyway?

  9. fergie said:

    Adam is from Christchurch

    Just wondering why that's relevant. A problem with inbreeding or is there something weird in the water down there?

    fergie said:

    and it appears he has received some rather unfortunate advice. He alleges that someone at his gym told him the two products he imported were "okay" to use.

    Yeah... Sometimes I think they should dumb down the first section of the doping section in Rulebooks...

    fergie said:

    That's nearly as stupid as getting your info from the web...

    I'll remember to walk down to the local PubMed store when I need to look for some info :p

  10. Threshold said:

    Yes, the indoor trainer is a possibility but for the most part, we all know how boring that could be. Last winter I did mostly running on the treadmill and the occasional stepmill and did things like lunges, 2-ft box jumps, invisible chair, etc.

    If you have a well defined goal and from that a well defined training program (it doesn't have to be fancy) then training indoors becomes alot easier. You don't have to slog it out during the coldest winter months for hours at a time indoors. If you absolutely can't stand sitting on a trainer for 60 to 120 minutes then plan on getting in as much quality good hard two to three hour rides in before it gets too cold and then switch focus on upping the ante and switching to shorter interval work indoors. Even if it's something like 1 minute x 10 with 9 minutes rest inbetween... that 9 minutes rest will dissolve into what seems like 3 minutes after 3 or 4 "honest" 1 minute efforts.

    When the weather warms up and if you've been doing your prior sessions properly you'll definitely have more "go" that when you came into the season and you'll be better prepared. Those short intverals mid-winter may not the best place for them but it'll be better for your cycling than running on a treadmill...

    ... so, how can you stand to run on the treadmill yet can't ride on the trainer?

  11. moto 1 said:

    My experience with weight training is as follows. I lifted heavy for 20 years. Cycling was a hobby. Due to an injury the heavy lifting had to stop. Have not weight trained legs for over a year. Dropped 30lbs of muscle. Leg size went down 2.5 inches. Quess what Cycling impoved drastically. I plan on weight training legs this winter but at lower poundages and more reps. Will try to stay at 20 plus reps per set.
    just my 2 cents.

    I wasn't thinking of doing anything too crazy where someone is leg pressing 800 lbs or squating 400 lbs on a 4 or 5 day a week scheule. I was thinking more along the lines of weight training twice a week (4 or 5 exercises) to supplement running and calisthenics. The way I see it is that to me, it will be testing the waters since I only recently got serious about training as opposed to the past 3 years, where I would just ride for riding without having any form of structure or nutrition. If nothing comes of it, at least I know that it didn't work but to me, based on my past winters of not really training at all, it will be extra training that hopefully will benefit me.

  12. swampy1970 said:

    If you have a well defined goal and from that a well defined training program (it doesn't have to be fancy) then training indoors becomes alot easier. You don't have to slog it out during the coldest winter months for hours at a time indoors. If you absolutely can't stand sitting on a trainer for 60 to 120 minutes then plan on getting in as much quality good hard two to three hour rides in before it gets too cold and then switch focus on upping the ante and switching to shorter interval work indoors. Even if it's something like 1 minute x 10 with 9 minutes rest inbetween... that 9 minutes rest will dissolve into what seems like 3 minutes after 3 or 4 "honest" 1 minute efforts.

    When the weather warms up and if you've been doing your prior sessions properly you'll definitely have more "go" that when you came into the season and you'll be better prepared. Those short intverals mid-winter may not the best place for them but it'll be better for your cycling than running on a treadmill...

    ... so, how can you stand to run on the treadmill yet can't ride on the trainer?

    I like all these good points you gave about the interval training. I was planning on performing some interval training on the stationary bike at the gym, but to be honest with you, the most I am capable of staying on the stationary bike is about 30 min... and that's pushing it. So, I can do the 1x10min intervals but probably with less effort so that the recovery periods can be shorter. This leads me to something that I should probably clear up... by trainer, I mean a stationary bike and not a trainer that you can hook your bike to. Those trainers are $$$$ and I know that if I stay home to train, I won't get in a quality workout or have any motivation because I'm home, where I'm easily distracted.

    Reason that I can deal with a treadmill is because the trainer (stationary bike at gym) is so uncomfortable and fitment is poor at best. They have hardly any adjustment at all and most of them are missing the shoe straps which are sad attempts to mimic clip-in shoes. On the treadmill, I usually vary my speed and vary the inclination, which keeps me better entertained than the trainer.

  13. fergie said:

    Adam is from Christchurch and it appears he has received some rather unfortunate advice. He alleges that someone at his gym told him the two products he imported were "okay" to use. That's nearly as stupid as getting your info from the web, forums and armchair coaches.

    His excuse is up there with Gilberto Simoni's cocaine positive; The cocaine was in Peruvian cookies that my aunt sent me! You gotta love it! 😄

    What a DOPEy Sod - Kiwi cyclist Adam Stewart.... http://www.roadcycling.co.nz/TeamTalk/what-a-dope-kiwi-cyclist-adam-stewart.html

  14. Threshold said:

    I wasn't thinking of doing anything too crazy where someone is leg pressing 800 lbs or squating 400 lbs on a 4 or 5 day a week scheule. I was thinking more along the lines of weight training twice a week (4 or 5 exercises) to supplement running and calisthenics.

    Threshold, I would certainly suggest strength training to increase your power on the bike along with training your core strength. Building stability in the gym can translate to improvements later in the cycle when specific training becomes dominant. All said, weight-assisted training should be a supplement to your training, not the core of it, but there is some correlation, because of the force-velocity curve. Where training relative strength here; (positive power-to-weight ratio) as its more important than absolute strength for functional movement & in no way is developing hypertrophy (muscle mass) advised.

    Anyway, you will be wanting to place most of your emphasis on strengthening your Posterior chain, mainly the (Glutes, Hamstrings, Hips, Legs, Erector spinae & (quads) aka the most powerful muscles used in Cycling, the muscles at the back of the body propelling you forwards. “A strong man is strong on the back of his body.” Emphasis should be placed on strengthening them particular muscle groups, but DON'T forget the core, inner/outer abs/obliques/hip flexors/lowerback, which generates a lot of power & delivers it to the extremities at a greater rate & efficiency. ALL human movement begins at the core of the body ie. the muscles in the core of the body contract/generate power before the extremities (legs).

    A total body strength exercise at the gym would be a deadlift. Performing deadlifts will hit pretty much everything in your posterior chain. There are many variations to the DL, the best variation IMO is the [censored] Grip deadlift.

    [ame=[MEDIA=youtube]IuFuvK4JuGM[/MEDIA]]YouTube - 315 x 10 [censored] Grip Deadlift[/ame]

    Another exercise I rate very highly are weighted hip thrusts. Again, another posterior chain exercise which also puts emphasis on strengthening the core/abs also. You probably won't see many people performing these at your local gym, but this exercise activates the glutes greater than any other exercise on the planet (according to EMG data) Dispelling the Glute Myth including deadlifts, squats, olympic lifts etc.

    [ame=[MEDIA=youtube]_6Au-W9Klko[/MEDIA]]YouTube - Barbell Hip Thrust[/ame]

    All my lowerbody weight training comes before I go out & ride, usually in the morning, when I'm fresh. I lift year round, not too maintain but to increase my strength. This relates back to increasing power output on the bike, particularly on the flats. I perform lowerbody workouts 2-3x per week. Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Saturday.

    Maybe...

    Conventional Deadlifts: (3-5 sets of 3-8 reps)
    Weighted Hip Thrusts: (3-5 sets of 3-8 reps)

    As the sets increase, so do my poundages on the bar. I conclude my deadlift workout with a few back-off (lower weight) sets working exclusively on explosiveness, pausing at the bottom then exploding up, usually with the conventional deadlift.

    I 'usually' use 5 reps per set. A set of 8-12 reps, your form will usually deteriorate along with bar speed (important). So using this method takes care of both. Even if your form stays perfect your bar speed will most likely slow down. If only doing 4 reps at a time (per set) your bar speed will remain more constant.

    I have recently done away with squatting, never been a fan of leg pressing & I'm concentrating mainly on hip thrusting & deadlifts as my main exercises this winter for my lowerbody. Having had a argument with fergs on how certain variations of the deadlift complement the conventional deadlift, I will also be adding theses variations into the mix: [censored] Grip, Sumo, Romanian, Sumo Stance Stiff Legged & the Halt deadlift.

    Conventional Deadlift... (Lower back/Spinal erectors, Gluteus, Quadriceps)... Total body exercise...
    Sumo Deadlift... (Quadriceps, Gluteus, Hamstrings, Hip adductors)... Decreased lumbar stress, total body exercise...
    Romanian Deadlift... (Hamstrings, Spinal erectors)... Essential learning movement for Olympic lifts and variants...
    [censored] Grip Deadlift... (Upper back, Spinal erectors)... Increased scapular stabilization...
    Wide Stance Stiff Legged Deadlifts: Hip strength.

    I'm doing away with lifting straps also, working more on grip & making my forearms look stronger.

    Exercise & Muscle Directory; Exercise & Muscle Directory

    So yeah, don't make it too complicated. On one day, Pick 2 compound exercises (Multiple-joint exercises that involve the posterior chain) per session for the lowerbody, you choose the intensity and volume of your workout based on how you feel on any given day, shoot for 20-40 total reps of each exercise in a session, if you feel crappy, then maybe shooting for the minimum of 20 reps is fine. If you feel good, you might shoot for 35-40 total reps per exercise. 3-5 minutes recovery rest between sets to let the CNS recharge itself.

    Why 20-40 reps? The answer to that is 20-40 reps @ 70-85% 1RM is the range that many athletes have found to work best for strength gains & avoids significant CNS stress and burnout (before my ride). I personally don't go any higher than 8 reps for any given strength exercise (usually 5 reps is my mainstay & not too failure).

    The core exercises I highly regard; Planks (front, back & side planks), dumbbell side bends, hip thrusts, Standing Russian Twists, Numerous Push Up Variations etc. The core I believe should be worked isometrically; isometric exercises such as; (planks, supermans etc), & do away with dynamic movements such as (sit-ups, crunches etc).

    [ame=[MEDIA=youtube]qJSbSHutTLE[/MEDIA]]YouTube - Basic Ab Isometric Program[/ame]

    So make sure your working the posterior chain, the core & slightly some upperbody work. Not all the sameday, but throughout the entire week. Listen to your body, train smarter & not harder.

    I ride after my lifting session (1-2 hours). This is due to the fact my rides are far more intense (on my CNS/Energy systems) than my weight sessions. I couldn't possibly perform weight work (to the standard of where I would want it) after coming back from an intense aerobic workout (30-70 miles).

    You could also be setting yourself up for injury doing weights after cycling as the muscular system loses strength, particularly in the back, which is prone to damage. Anyone performing deadlifts/exercises involving the back, from putting 50 miles into there erector spinae/back (weakening all the time) is on the road to injury.

    The days I'm not lifting I'm working mainly on my core strength/little bit of upperbody & relaxing. I'm riding around 4-5x per week depending on how I feel. Usually 1 day for recovery.

    If you start lifting, don't start too heavy, adapt & it will become much easier. If your progressively increasing (staying dedicated) you should feel much better on the bike.

    Remember, your gunning for relative strength not hypertrophy.

  15. swampy1970 said:

    Just wondering why that's relevant. A problem with inbreeding or is there something weird in the water down there?

    Same town as me. Not that I have anything to do with the guy.

    Quoted post said:

    I'll remember to walk down to the local PubMed store when I need to look for some info :p

    That you think that PubMed is a store makes my case.

  16. Threshold said:

    On top of that for this winter coming up, I thought that maybe putting in some heavy weight training could be of some benefit since I really don't ride much in the winter anyway. None would agree that it would help considering riding isnt much of an option during that time anyway?

    In the off season I would be doing whatever I could to stay fit. I would still keep in mind what I was training for. I train for bike races not for fitness scores on tests of strength or aerobic capacity. The adaptations to any form of exercise are very specific so I would be making sure that any work done in the gym or doing other sports wasn't taking me further away from my in season goals.

  17. fergie said:


    That you think that PubMed is a store makes my case.

    You mean for once you have a case? So store was a bad choice of wording - I guess I should have said pop down the local medical library and buy, if necessary, the required info.

    The point was that it's mainly an online service, ie advice from teh interwebz... which you decided to shoot down en masse. Personally, I don't have access or the time to visit all the locations across the US where a lot of this stuff resides.

  18. Threshold said:

    Reason that I can deal with a treadmill is because the trainer (stationary bike at gym) is so uncomfortable and fitment is poor at best. They have hardly any adjustment at all and most of them are missing the shoe straps which are sad attempts to mimic clip-in shoes. On the treadmill, I usually vary my speed and vary the inclination, which keeps me better entertained than the trainer.

    My suggestion would be a more aerobic based session on the trainer and this can be done in 30-45 min.

    10 x 1min on 1min off efforts, 10 x 30sec on 30sec off, 10 x 15sec on 15sec off.

    Ramping through the gears every min, start in 53 x 23 and drop a gear every min till in the 12 then back to the 23.

    Descending efforts of 10min tempo, 2min easy, 8min hard, 2min easy, 6min very hard, 2min easy, 4min at severe intensity, 4min easy then 2mins hard as you can.

    In the off season I wouldn't focus too much on anaerobic capacity.

  19. swampy1970 said:

    You mean for once you have a case? So store was a bad choice of wording - I guess I should have said pop down the local medical library and buy, if necessary, the required info.

    The point was that it's mainly an online service, ie advice from teh interwebz... which you decided to shoot down en masse. Personally, I don't have access or the time to visit all the locations across the US where a lot of this stuff resides.

    Like you have a case for abduction and "Coach Fergs Crank Length formula"😄

    Pub Med is one of the most misused sites where amateurs think they can keep up with academics by reading abstracts alone.

  20. fergie said:

    My suggestion would be a more aerobic based session on the trainer and this can be done in 30-45 min.

    10 x 1min on 1min off efforts, 10 x 30sec on 30sec off, 10 x 15sec on 15sec off.

    Ramping through the gears every min, start in 53 x 23 and drop a gear every min till in the 12 then back to the 23.

    Descending efforts of 10min tempo, 2min easy, 8min hard, 2min easy, 6min very hard, 2min easy, 4min at severe intensity, 4min easy then 2mins hard as you can.

    In the off season I wouldn't focus too much on anaerobic capacity.


    Fergie, looks like three great short trainer programs for the off-season. I like the on/off intervals as well as the change of gearing routine. A lot more interesting that just slogging out endless 2x20's at a fixed % FTP.

    The gym trainers I ride now don't have gears, but by changing the electronic load settings, the effect feels similar to gear changes. Is the gearing ramp-up/ramp-down set you prescribe done at constant cadence (and widely-variable power output) or do you have the riders maintain a power target by starting the 53-23 at high cadence and then letting the cadence slow down as the gearing goes up?

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