Ron Kiefel

gman0482 said:

This is awesome...

Thanks for posting it, well worth watching! 😎

No prob, I can see how those were some great days back then. Not as much drama, just fierce competition.

gman0482 said:

No prob, I can see how those were some great days back then. Not as much drama, just fierce competition.

Not having team radios helps 😄

steve said:

Not having team radios helps 😄

too right. gave a better chance for one of those epic solos to survive the chase. undercurrent to my praise is that removing the radios allows for strategic mistakes/chance/good & bad fortune to play a role in racing again. let's see who can race with his head and legs like h. d. g. wanted.

Those were the days--no radios, no aero, no helmets, no gog--oops, well, dig those giant Oakleys on Andy.

The 7-Eleven team really opened some doors.

The racing has become a bit lacking in soul lately. Hopefully it'll improve when the radios vanish.

Ron Kiefel: what can you say? That was a monster effort. I think the best part of the video, though, was Bob Roll's hair. Roll definitely added his own special brand of flair to the peloton and racing.

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roll is a legend! "If anyone tries to get rough with andy, were not gonna stand for it and especially me". LOL! 87 was actually a pretty good year for them. they won that race and put together a decent tour team. i dont know what happened in 88 though......they had to have been the absolute worst tour de france team that year.

It is interesting to note that in 1989 (I think) Motorola took over sponsorship and introduced race radios to the peleton. This is also the year LeMond used the extended handle bars and the time trial aerodynamic helmet in the time trial.
I would like to see more man on man competition and less technical innovations.
Helmets to protect riders, yes. Aerodynamic helmets for time trials, no. Race radios, no. Anything but real cycling wheels with spokes, no.
Let's see some cyclists who can think for themselves out on the road.

burninglegs said:

Let's see some cyclists who can think for themselves out on the road.

you rang?

yeah, great video, never seen it before. some good old fashioned team riding and i especially like how they come into the velodrome at the end. that was really cool.

burninglegs said:

It is interesting to note that in 1989 (I think) Motorola took over sponsorship and introduced race radios to the peleton. This is also the year LeMond used the extended handle bars and the time trial aerodynamic helmet in the time trial.
I would like to see more man on man competition and less technical innovations.
Helmets to protect riders, yes. Aerodynamic helmets for time trials, no. Race radios, no. Anything but real cycling wheels with spokes, no.
Let's see some cyclists who can think for themselves out on the road.

I remember those innovations and how exciting they were at the time. It seemed every year brought crazy new bike geometries and materials, new colors and new technologies. Part of the excitement was seeing what new things they'd come up with in the attempt to one-up everyone else, year on year.

That was the standpoint of youth. From the standpoint of experience we can see how easy it is to take a classic sport like cycling and screw it up (make it boring) for the sake of winning. On the other hand, though, wishing it weren't so won't turn back time. And I'm not sure we'd want the UCI to do to racing what they've done to the hour record.

Probably the best we can hope for is that they'll do away with radios. That alone would go a long way toward restoring some excitement to the sport.

Maxiton said:

That was the standpoint of youth. From the standpoint of experience we can see how easy it is to take a classic sport like cycling and screw it up (make it boring) for the sake of winning. On the other hand, though, wishing it weren't so won't turn back time. And I'm not sure we'd want the UCI to do to racing what they've done to the hour record.

Probably the best we can hope for is that they'll do away with radios. That alone would go a long way toward restoring some excitement to the sport.

burninglegs said:

I would like to see more man on man competition and less technical innovations.
Helmets to protect riders, yes. Aerodynamic helmets for time trials, no. Race radios, no. Anything but real cycling wheels with spokes, no.
Let's see some cyclists who can think for themselves out on the road.

I don't think this is what's happened to cycling at all.

First of all, it's racing. The purpose of any form of racing is to win. Full stop. Without a winner there'd be no competition, and it's that spirit of competition that drives the majority of racers. In fact, it's damned addicting. I'm willing to bet one reason Armstrong is back is because he missed the adrenal high, the fight. As for the hour record, there are two hour records: the traditional record, and the high tech gizmo record. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

The competition is still mano-a-mano. The bikes, the aero stuff in time trials, none of it is a critical differentiator. Not one bit. Look at Cancellara: he wins TT's repeatedly, and yet he doesn't always have the most aero bike. Dave Z is an aero junkie, yet he's not always on top of the podium. It's the legs and the lungs that win.

You can't stop technical innovations. There are very few sports that have been untouched by tech advances, possibly none. Those advances may be in gear or in training. If you really want to be true to the ethic for which you're pleading, then you'd have to demand that all training be done exactly as it was in 1905 or summat. Further, what "innovations" you allow would just be a [censored] nilly choice. Someone might argue that the derailleur has ruined racing. That's as fair a claim as aero kit has ruined racing.

To gain a broader perspective, look around. Everything mankind has and has done has been flush with new innovations. It can't be stopped. It's the nature of man to explore and push his/her boundaries. Part of that exploration is exploring the laws of nature and our creativity and intelligence to see if we can create new, innovative machines, processes, marital aids, and etc. Further, those innovations that have come from racing have provided some damned nice kit for us regular folk to use, and it's helped keep the bicycle industry healthy. Stasis is a death knell for any industry. Look what happened to the guys that made wooden wheels. They ain't around any more.

Also, for manufacturers, without being able to show off their new stuff in races, there'd be no reason to sponsor races/teams/riders. After all, it's really not because of any altruistic reason that manufacturers give out sponsorships. The public scrambles for the new stuff they see under riders. I doubt the public would be scrambling to see the same thing year after year.

I'll grant you that radios were a bad idea, for the reason that has been stated: it put race tactics in the hand of the DS, not the riders.

The UCI already limits the geometry and weight of bikes. And no one's saying that all change is bad. All I'm saying is that if change and innovation are completely unregulated, there is the very real risk that in their drive to win, teams will engage in an arms race that results in its own kind of equilibrium or stasis i.e. boredom. Case in point, radios.

As for the hour record, my whole point was that in their effort to turn back time, the UCI had split the hour record and thereby deprived it of it's former excitement. Better to let innovation happen, but within some sort of limits.

Maxiton said:

The UCI already limits the geometry and weight of bikes. And no one's saying that all change is bad. All I'm saying is that if change and innovation are completely unregulated, there is the very real risk that in their drive to win, teams will engage in an arms race that results in its own kind of equilibrium or stasis i.e. boredom. Case in point, radios.

As for the hour record, my whole point was that in their effort to turn back time, the UCI had split the hour record and thereby deprived it of it's former excitement. Better to let innovation happen, but within some sort of limits.

I don't think you can limit innovation or regulate it at all. It's good for cycling. Look at the innovation so far that has resulted from cycling: quick release skewers, multiple gears on the back, derailleurs, integrated brakes/shifters, dual pivot brakes, clipless pedals, and so on. To limit innovation would mean setting a completely arbitrary standard. How do you set that standard without cutting off innovation at the knees? In racing it's often said, "Race it on Sunday. Sell it on Monday." That applies to cycling as well as anything else. If the manufacturers can't sell it, they won't make it, and they rely heavily on racing to help sell products.

Cycling equipment has no significant impact on whether a race is boring or exciting, except maybe in the case of a broken chain, a flat, or summat. Radios are not bicycle kit, and they're going to be gone soon.

Maxiton said:

I remember those innovations and how exciting they were at the time. It seemed every year brought crazy new bike geometries and materials, new colors and new technologies. Part of the excitement was seeing what new things they'd come up with in the attempt to one-up everyone else, year on year.

vitamin s said:

roll is a legend! "If anyone tries to get rough with andy, were not gonna stand for it and especially me". LOL! 87 was actually a pretty good year for them. they won that race and put together a decent tour team. i dont know what happened in 88 though......they had to have been the absolute worst tour de france team that year.

88 was the year Hampsten won the Giro.

alienator said:

I don't think you can limit innovation or regulate it at all. It's good for cycling.

It already is limited and regulated. By the UCI, among others. But let's say it wasn't. The fastest bike in the world is a recumbent enclosed in a bullet-like faring. On the flats it reaches in excess of 80 mph. Granted, recumbents aren't so good at climbing, but what if they find a way to fix that problem? I'm not claiming they could, but what if they did? Any objection to recumbents eclipsing the standard bike?

What if they find a way to conserve and/or multiply wattage? Maybe some sort of engine-like thing that stores a certain amount of rider-generated wattage (and maybe sunlight) on the flats and then uses it to assist a rider on the climbs? Its advocates would say unassisted climbing is brutal and inhumane and leads to doping. Would you call that cycling?

How about if the frame is impregnated with self-constructing nano particles which turn themselves into huge gossamer wings at the top of a climb and the riders glide down, as though on a hang-glider? Would you accept that innovation? Or would you object that, yeah, it's kind of interesting and maybe exciting but it's not cycling? Industry advocates might respond to such arguments by saying, "Step out of the past, oldster. You're setting an arbitrary standard."

Quoted post said:

Look at the innovation so far that has resulted from cycling: quick release skewers, multiple gears on the back, derailleurs, integrated brakes/shifters, dual pivot brakes, clipless pedals, and so on. To limit innovation would mean setting a completely arbitrary standard. How do you set that standard without cutting off innovation at the knees? In racing it's often said, "Race it on Sunday. Sell it on Monday." That applies to cycling as well as anything else. If the manufacturers can't sell it, they won't make it, and they rely heavily on racing to help sell products.

Quoted post said:

Cycling equipment has no significant impact on whether a race is boring or exciting, except maybe in the case of a broken chain, a flat, or summat. Radios are not bicycle kit, and they're going to be gone soon.

Since excitement is a subjective state, we can't really argue that equipment does or doesn't determine the level of excitement - though I would argue that Lemond's aero helmet and time trial bars were themselves exciting, just to give an example, and resulted in the further excitement of a win by mere seconds. But notwithstanding that point, who says radios aren't cycling kit? Since when? Do you have a computer on your bike? Is it part of your kit? How about a helmet or a bottle? So why not a radio?

And can you please clarify for me the term "summat"? I honestly don't know what that is.

Wow. I thought your thoughts might remain in the plane of reasonable logic, but it seems they've gravitated toward the ridiculous.

Unfortunately for you, the days of "traditional" steel frames in the pro peloton are dead and are never coming back.

Magic winged bikes, energy multiplying bikes, or whatever are completely stupid notions that make a mockery of your initial argument, straying far beyond anything objective, into the fanciful. Suffice it to say there is apparently no reasonable discussion to be had here.

The old days are in the past. Get over it. Race performance is driven by the rider.

Discussion murdered, dead.

I think that race radio ban would affect high mountain stages with successive passes. Where a breakaway could rise tempo of the main bunch causing earlier splits and struggle for the time limit. Also, on final accents it could cause stronger selection with bigger time gaps. I'd love to see a stage in Pyrenees this year without radios. They could keep the rule to inform team car via radio if someone had a flat or similar problem. Water bottles rule Should be kept too.
Spectators could inform riders about time gaps if motorcycles are too much informative.

alienator said:

In racing it's often said, "Race it on Sunday. Sell it on Monday."

Just what our group needs for next summer's charity rides, race radios.

More seriously, though, though, the bikes made out of unobtainium haven't hurt the excitement of cycling as much as made the pros' equipment unattainable to most working people. In 1984 I was riding a bike that was just as trick as the Gitane Laurent Fignon rode to victory in the Tour de France. Those days are long gone.

I'm not complaining, though. The trickle-down has been fabulous for business and new riders.