Trams

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:41:18 -0000, in
<[email hidden]>, "Robert D France"

Quoted message said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45). Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are
for my riding. For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a
bicycle? or are the tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely?

From my limited experience of trams, they tend to have a dedicated lane in the centre of the
carriageway. Much of the A45 does indeed have a wide grassy central reservation so I doubt it will
cause the problem you refer to.

Quoted message said:

i am undecided as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public
consultation questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or underpasses
at major junctions and roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these options were out of
fashion these days, and that street level solutions were prefered. anythoughts?

Absolutely, trams and other traffic can co-exist at the same level through tyhe use of
traffic lights.

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Ride over them at at least 30 degrees.

--
Due to a typing error on the Children's Hospital menu Saturday evening now offers "Beef burger in a
bum". Email: Put only the word "richard" before the @ sign.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:41:18 -0000, in
<[email hidden]>, "Robert D France"

Quoted message said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45).

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

You could buy a trike, drop your single wheel in one of the tracks and go hands free!

--
Due to a typing error on the Children's Hospital menu Saturday evening now offers "Beef burger in a
bum". Email: Put only the word "richard" before the @ sign.

Richard Bates said:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:41:18 -0000, in <[email hidden]>, "Robert

D France said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45).

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

You could buy a trike, drop your single wheel in one of the tracks and go hands free!

Great idea! When the tram comes along behind you, you can stop pedalling too!

pk

Robert D France said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45). Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are
for my riding. For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a
bicycle? or are the tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely? i am undecided
as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public consultation
questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or underpasses at major
junctions and roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these options were out of fashion
these days, and that street level solutions were prefered. anythoughts? also having skinny road
tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Trams are fun, but pretty damn dangerous since (a) they can't swerve or stop quickly and (b) the
tracks eat wheels if you're not careful. Be careful out there.

In article <[email hidden]>, Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Trams are fun, but pretty damn dangerous since (a) they can't swerve or stop quickly and (b) the
tracks eat wheels if you're not careful. Be careful out there.

On the other hand, they don't do anything unpredictable. I've shared roads with them around Croydon
and never had a problem.

ttfn

Martin

--
Reporter: "What do you think of western civilisation?" Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea."

Martin Harlow [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

(b) the tracks eat wheels if you're not careful.

(c) the tracks eat human flesh too. As found out at a personal level by my offspring, who left a
fair amount of his DNA embedded in tramlines on the outskirts of Cologne this summer. His scar
is noticeable.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam-- to get correct one remove dependency on fame &
fortune h*$el*$$e**nd***$o$ts***i*$*$m**m$$o*n**s@$*$a$$o**l.c**$*$om$$

Robert D France said:

will i get trapped in the tracks?

My great grandfather used to tell a tale of riding along on his bike, getting a wheel caught in the
tramlines, and doing a header, catching his nose in turn the rails. He claims that they had to push
him to Fulham before they could get him out...

Nowadays, of course, nobody believes a word of it.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

The tracks put down in Nottingham recently look like another serious hazard to me. If you ask your
grandad he'll tell you. I expected some modern trick that would reduce the risk but they look just
like the originals from the 1900's.You would need motorbike tyres not to drop into them. At least
some of the roads have no room to pass a bike. A leaflet was produced describing ways you can reduce
the risk.My feeling is that if you set a trap for the unwary throwing a few leaflets around should
not give absolution. TerryJ

"Robert D France" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45). Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are
for my riding. For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a
bicycle? or are the tracks far

enough

Quoted message said:

away from the kerb that it can pass safely?

Well, the B'ham to Wolverhampton tram route runs mostly along an old abandoned rail route. However,
for the last 1.5 miles in Wolverhampton it does take to the roads. Although it doesn't actualy use
the route that I cycle B'ham - Wolves, I have paid particular atention to this section on the
occasions that I have traveled by tram rather than bike, with the possible effect on cyclists in
mind. Where ever possible the lines take to the centre of the road, well away from most cycles.
However there is a short stretch (where the road space is limited) where the lines run more or less
in the Primary Position. There does still appear to be enough room for the tram to overtake a
cyclist. Personally I'd probably stop and let it run past., but if you were braver than me and could
ride for a few yards in a reasonably straight line you'd be OK. At least you know that the tram is
not going to move in on you or anything, it can only go perfectly straight.

Quoted message said:

i am undecided as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public
consultation questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if

i

Quoted message said:

would prefer flyovers or underpasses at major junctions and roundabouts. i was under the
impression that both these options were out of fashion these days, and that street level solutions
were prefered. anythoughts?

I agree with you. In the Wolverhamton road section they do not use either flyovers or underpasses.
The trams go straight over the centre of rounderbouts using traffic light controll. I think it
works well.

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Well yes, obviously. As others have said, where you need to cross them, do so at a sensible angle. I
don't think you'll find that there will actually be many places where you'll need to do this.

It's good that you make your concerns known. Reply to the consultation document. I would also
suggest that you treat yourself to a trip from Snow Hill to Wolves to see the system actually
working and to get a first hand view of what is proposed.

Cheerful Pedalling John Mallard

Robert D France said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45).

Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are for my riding.
For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a bicycle? or are the
tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely?

From my brief experiences on a bike in Amsterdam and Sheffield, there's usually enough room to stop
by the kerbside and let a tram pass, and sometimes enough space to keep moving while doing so.

Trams are fairly slow in shared areas, and they move more predictably than other motor traffic too,
if you can figure out how they articulate. Normally it's easiest to sit between the rails and move
with the traffic.

Quoted message said:

i am undecided as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public
consultation questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or underpasses
at major junctions and roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these options were out of
fashion these days, and that street level solutions were prefered. anythoughts?

Underpasses/flyovers for who? Bikes or trams? I'll assume trams. Roundabouts are complicated enough
anyway without the added delights of slippery rails, so you might want to consider suggesting that
the trams be sent underground at that point.

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Well, it's something to watch out for. The thing to do is cross them at a fairly wide angle to
reduce the risk of your front wheel ending up in the slot.

--
Andrew Chadwick You never hear a Cricket crowd chanting "who's the [censored] in the hat?"

Andrew Chadwick said:

Robert D France said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45).

Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are for my riding.
For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a bicycle? or are the
tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely?

From my brief experiences on a bike in Amsterdam and Sheffield, there's usually enough room to
stop by the kerbside and let a tram pass, and sometimes enough space to keep moving while
doing so.

Trams are fairly slow in shared areas, and they move more predictably than other motor traffic
too, if you can figure out how they articulate. Normally it's easiest to sit between the rails and
move with the traffic.

Quoted message said:

i am undecided as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public
consultation questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or underpasses
at major junctions and roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these options were out of
fashion these days, and that street level solutions were prefered. anythoughts?

Underpasses/flyovers for who? Bikes or trams? I'll assume trams. Roundabouts are complicated
enough anyway without the added delights of slippery rails, so you might want to consider
suggesting that the trams be sent underground at that point.

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Well, it's something to watch out for. The thing to do is cross them at a fairly wide angle to
reduce the risk of your front wheel ending up in the slot.

Also be aware of the junctions between tram/ped and tram/road areas. In croydon the trams and
traffic are controlled by lights, but the tram ones are not your red amber green things, and if
you're cycling along a tram path you may inadvertantly leave the ped/tram part and end up travelling
on tram-only, or cycle across a tram/ped or tram/traffic junction without realising you don't have
priority which might lead to some hairy (or more than scary) moments!

Velvet

you know? said:

My great grandfather used to tell a tale of riding along on his bike, getting a wheel caught in the
tramlines, and doing a header, catching his nose in turn the rails. He claims that they had to push
him to Fulham before they could get him out...

If they'd just connected one of his legs to the power cable he could have got to Fulham without the
need to push.

--
Dave...

Robert D France said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45). Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are
for my riding. For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a
bicycle? or are the tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely? i am undecided as
to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public consultation questionaire i
have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or underpasses at major junctions and
roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these options were out of fashion these days, and
that street level solutions were prefered. anythoughts? also having skinny road tyres, will i get
trapped in the tracks?

overall, i'm pretty supportive of trams. a tram carries, say, 100 people and i'd prefer 1 tram to
contend with than 100 cars.

as with all road design issues, the devil will be in the detail. you need to really keep an eye on
what is proposed on a metre-by-metre basis and shout loud and early if you don't like it.

don't worry about the fact that wheels can get trapped in tracks; if they are well positioned, this
won't be a problem.

as far as junctions are concerned, if a tram track is put in at street level it'll require pretty
major road redesign and signalisation. just make sure that bikes are accounted for in the design and
the chances are you'll get a better junction than before.

the only people who can ensure it is ok for local cyclists *are* local cyclists. so [see other
threads] get engaged and make sure other cyclists do the same.

In "]news:[email hidden],
John Mallard <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

"Robert D France" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:35UFb.1894$XZ2.786@news-
binary.blueyonder.co.uk...

Quoted message said:

theres a new tram link being proposed near where i live (Birmingham town centre to the airport,
along the A45). Having never ridden anywhere near a tram i am wondering what the implications are
for my riding. For example if the tram doesnt have a dedicated lane, how does it overtake a
bicycle? or are the tracks far enough away from the kerb that it can pass safely?

Well, the B'ham to Wolverhampton tram route runs mostly along an old abandoned rail route.
However, for the last 1.5 miles in Wolverhampton it does take to the roads. Although it doesn't
actualy use the route that I cycle B'ham - Wolves, I have paid particular atention to this section
on the occasions that I have traveled by tram rather than bike, with the possible effect on
cyclists in mind.

I've cycled it 2 or 3 times before I found a better way from Walsall-Wolves (not obvious). Where it
is close to the kerb, there's a very fine hatching on the tarmac to show the area over which the
body of the tram does not pass, and it's easily big enough to cycle through, but I agree with you,
and I'd let it run past me. In general it seems very easy to coexist with. I don't remember any
oblique crossings (not that there's many crossings at all), like the one in Manchester heading into
town on the A6 where the tram's coming out of Picadilly station. Also the bits where it runs along
the road have more space to the left than is possible in West St on the Sheffield system, but both
of those have much more track on the road.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i am undecided as to whether i support the plans yet, but am quite worried by the public
consultation questionaire i have got hold of, which asks if i would prefer flyovers or
underpasses at major junctions and roundabouts. i was under the impression that both these
options were out of fashion these days, and that street level solutions were prefered.
anythoughts?

I agree with you. In the Wolverhamton road section they do not use either flyovers or underpasses.
The trams go straight over the centre of rounderbouts using traffic light controll. I think it
works well.

I think there's probably more big junctions to pass through on the A45 coming out of Birmingham
(Swan at Yardley, etc), so there may be a need for multilevel solutions at those places. I think
both underpasses and flyovers for trams can be much smaller than ones for road vehicles as they only
need one lane in each direction, less width, etc. Also, there was an existing roundabout on the
Wolverhampton ring road whereas there are some busy light controlled junctions on the A45

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

also having skinny road tyres, will i get trapped in the tracks?

Well yes, obviously. As others have said, where you need to cross them, do so at a sensible angle.
I don't think you'll find that there will actually be many places where you'll need to do this.

Sensible crossing angles are something that you should definitely press for, although I think the
need for them is generally acknowledged, so it shouldn't be a fight.

Quoted message said:

It's good that you make your concerns known. Reply to the consultation document. I would also
suggest that you treat yourself to a trip from Snow Hill to Wolves to see the system actually
working and to get a first hand view of what is proposed.

Sadly of course you can't take the bike to try cycling alongside it at the Wolves end.

Ambrose

In message <[email hidden]>, Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Trams are fun, but pretty damn dangerous since (a) they can't swerve or stop quickly and (b) the
tracks eat wheels if you're not

They can stop very quickly, with a magnetic brake which clamps the car to the track. For emergencies
only, since the passengers keep moving until they hit the seat or stanchion in front of them.
Cyclists need to keep a safe distance when riding behind a tramcar.

They also need to keep an eye open for slot rails in roads shared with trams; maybe an extra visual
reminder such as different coloured tarmac would help? (Traditionally it was granite sets, polished
by motor-tyres and slippery with drizzle and horse dung. What good old days?)

On the other hand, the presence of trams (or better still, trolleybuses) in a town quickly rids it
of pedestrians who walk straight off the kerb without looking. The drivers soon learn to spot those
who are about to do something silly, and give them a fright by letting their bell gong or hooter off
right in their ear.

--
Sue ];(🙂

Terry wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

.You would need motorbike tyres not to drop into them.

It's not the width of the groove which is critical, as you can always cross them at an angle, but
the fact that they are made of steel and very slippery especially when damp or wet. I know of
several scooter riders who've come a cropper on them in Weymouth.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:21:10 +0000 someone who may be "[Not
Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

the only people who can ensure it is ok for local cyclists *are* local cyclists. so [see other
threads] get engaged and make sure other cyclists do the same.

In the case of Sheffield they did at the early stages and were told that their needs would be met.
Then a design and build contract was let and the needs of cyclists were totally ignored.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 11:21:10 +0000 someone who may be "[Not Responding]"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

the only people who can ensure it is ok for local cyclists *are* local cyclists. so [see other
threads] get engaged and make sure other cyclists do the same.

In the case of Sheffield they did at the early stages and were told that their needs would be met.
Then a design and build contract was let and the needs of cyclists were totally ignored.

true, the situation can arise where you try and fail but if noone even tries you are
garanteed to fail.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:29:37 GMT someone who may be "Steve R."
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I know of several scooter riders who've come a cropper on them in Weymouth.

The railway tracks at Weymouth are just that, railway tracks. Tram tracks are rather different. In
particular the width and depth of the "grove" in a tram track is much less.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.