What weight training to do

Dude, read the massive thread on lifting. Your question above will be answered by many by saying "none." Those who think lifting helps will say the basics -- squats, leg presses, maybe leg extensions, back raises, abs.

That site's power calc is just silly. For example, we have a leg press machine at my gym that is leveraged in such a way as to make 315 lbs for 8 reps very tough, while I've been on other (that look very similar) and been able to a whole lot heavier.

There is only one good benchmark for leg power. Squats, to a uniform depth (say honestly parallel to the floor, which few people do), with feet no wider than maybe hip width apart, with the back kept bolt upright. Actually, I guess a hack squat machine would be an even better test because it enforces this very same form. A leg press will tell you nothing (and some are genuinely dangerous for your knees, back, and/or health -- i.e., the inverted types that can cause your bp to go though the roof).

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Aztec
Dude, read the massive thread on lifting. Your question above will be answered by many by saying "none." ...

For example, we have a leg press machine at my gym that is leveraged in such a way as to make 315 lbs for 8 reps very tough, while I've been on other (that look very similar) and been able to a whole lot heavier. ...

There is only one good benchmark for leg power. Squats, to a uniform depth (say honestly parallel to the floor, which few people do), with feet no wider than maybe hip width apart, with the back kept bolt upright. Actually, I guess a hack squat machine would be an even better test because it enforces this very same form. ...

Well I read most of that thread but I didn't go through it in depth. In my very well informed opinion, the basic principle is simple from a physical point of view: if you combine your normal cycling and other aerobic training, weight lifting is not detrimental. Your heart gets stronger and your lean muslce mass increases at the same time. (the weight training won't affect your heart and lungs much) And cycling unlike running etc. involves very difficult climbing and high levels of resistance, in which case more muscle power is needed.

Doing TOO MUCH weight training is detrimental to endurance athletes because your heart - which will remain the same - will have to power a heavier frame, but combining the two isn't. If Lance Armstrong does it, like the other pros do, it must work. He does it to regain lean muscle mass which he loses during the racing season and build functional strength. But anyway this is besides the point because that's what that other thread is about.

As for the leg press, obviously with different machines the difficulty will vary, that was talking specifically about a seated leg press. The machines like that are all quite similar, and I suppose maybe you had done a tougher workout before the one time it was easier. The difference between a seated/reclined/inclined will obviously be much bigger.

As for hack squats they work your quads don't they, and from what all the experts say the leg press works your quads the best. Well Chris Carmichael says that the leg press (seated) has got all the benefits of a squat without the risks/potential damage. That's why he says Lance never does squats.

But okay I'm getting off track again here, all I wanted to know at the end of the day was which groups of muscles are most important to cycling (i.e. gastrocnemius, quadriceps etc.). I suppose your opinion on how to train your legs may be different, but if it works for me I won't complain. (e.g. if you wanted to train your quads differently [and in a far tougher way!] get on one of those flat "leg press" ergos which are a bit like recumbant bikes, crank up the resistance to max and there you go, similar effect) So for example should I spend more time working my quads, calves etc?

Thanks for your help.

(BTW that site was for sprinting, but it should still be useful as a comparative measure.)

None. weight training isn't beneficial for endurance cycling performance (in trained riders)

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by z3ro
Which cycling-specific exercises can you reccomend doing?

If you are a road-person and for some reason have to include cycling-specific weight training then you might want to mimic the movements during out-of-saddle sprinting as closely as possible, because that seems to be the only facet of road racing that is likely to benefit to any degree.

Quoted post said:

Seated leg press
Reclined leg press
Calf raises (seated and standing)
Hamstring curls (not for cycling of course)
A few other quadriceps exercises

These seem OK as regards the muscles involved in sprinting (as long as the joint ranges are wide enough) but you might want to include some dumbbell work that mimics pulling on the bars.

As for the cycling-specificity of the muscle contraction speeds during all this weight training, that's a tricky one. Increase in muscle size should help you sprint though - I reckon winter weights did that for me (but it didn't last very far into the season). It will also slow you down on the hills.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by z3ro
And cycling unlike running etc. involves very difficult climbing and high levels of resistance, in which case more muscle power is needed.

I remember seeing Joop Zoetemelks legs give way when lifting a beginners weight (during a "Superstars" competition). Ron Pickering (IIRC) the commentator was sure he'd "have no problem with the clean - he's got strong legs".

The idea that weights are good for climbing is a joke.

Again, lift all you want, but if you are putting in even modest hours on the bike, you aren't going to gain a significant amount of mass. You could do the heaviest squats you can handle till you puke, and bench/dip/chin until you pass out and you just aren't going to gain weight.

Back to the topic... hack squats (on the machine) are excellent for quad work. And they throw more load on your glutes and hips than leg presses. Personally, I think leg presses aren't nearly as effective in developing legs/hips/glutes as squats or hack squats. And leg presses *can* be awfully tough on your knees (same for hacks) and low back/discs. Be sure to keep your reps above 8 as you get stronger, and never lower the weight farther than your flexibility allows (i.e., to where your low back starts to lose it's arch). A proper leg press isn't as deep as most do them -- the opposite of most other lifts.

And if you're going to lift, you might as well blast your hams, too. Anyone who thinks your hams don't get worked on the bike isn't pulling enough. After a hard ride, my hams are definitely worked.

I still stand by Ric on weight work being of no use to the endurance rider. And it's an absolute detriment to my recovery, so I don't regularly work quads anymore. When I start turning more to the track later this season, I'll start up again.

Lets look at the issue specifically, what are you tring to accomplish? gain mass or strength. If its mass than don't ride if its strength you can combine both and riding and weight training the thing is what to focus on. If you're tring to improve on hills there are interval training scemes that will help you with that, if its on the sprint again there are a few interval training scemes for that also.

When you do weight training its important to remember what its for maybe consentrate on explosive reps or low weight and high reps. to help on climbs. Either way make sure you figure out what it is your tring to accomplish.

Remember most weight training is done in the off season.

Pete........