Conditioning and training

limerickman said:

More an observation rather than anything else.

Over Christmas I was back home in Dublin and as usual on each St Stephens Day (Boxing Day : 26th Dec), my old team go out for a spin.
I had a very good chat with one of my old coaches.
I hadn't been speaking to this guy for a long time (I live 100 miles away - now) and we spent a lot of time talking about old time.
The majority of our conversation was about conditioning training.

When I raced competitively years ago, we used to do a lot of gym work in the depths of winter
We used do a five mile run -with 33 minute target - followed by pressups, situps, squats, light weight reps, rope climbs, indoor sprinting.
Following all of that we had an hour of indoor football.
I'd actually forgotten just how tough those sessions were.

I returned to where I now live, I decided to try this type of training regime with the youngsters in our club.
Usually our clubs winter training amounts to indoor training using rollers indoors.
A few of us still resort to braving the elements and doing outdoor spins (our club is located close to a well illuminated dual carriageway).
To mixup the training, I had got access to a local gym and I put it to the membership that we try the old regime that I used to use.
The first session was a real eyeopener.

Few of the members were able to complete the 5 mile in less than 33 mins.
The average completion time was in or around 40 mins.
The rope climbing/situps/pressups portion of the session, were difficult for many members and we had to curtail the indoor football to 30 mins because people were out on their feet.

I am glad to say though that many of the members came to me afterward and said that they wanted to continue these training sessions and I can report that there has been a gradual improvement in performance levels.
The 5 mile run times are coming down and we have begun to play indoor football for 60 mins.
More importantly, a lot of the members have said that their performance on the bike has improved as their aerobic/anaerobic fitness has improved considerably.

Those old coaches knew what they were on about !

Not necessarily doubting anything you have observed, but I am interested in how your members are evaluating/quantifying their improvement. I know what it's like to "feel" stronger/faster on the bike, but doesn't that "feel" need to be verified by hard numbers?

tonyzackery said:

Not necessarily doubting anything you have observed, but I am interested in how your members are evaluating/quantifying their improvement. I know what it's like to "feel" stronger/faster on the bike, but doesn't that "feel" need to be verified by hard numbers?

That's no problem.

I help train our junior teams - ages 14 to 17.
Some of this age group have committed to the regime that I outlined above, since the first week in January.

The verbal feedback that I got from these members was that they felt that the regime helped their cycling performance.
Before Jan 08, none of them had undergone a similar regime.
The verbal feedback which I got from them was along the lines of "I feel physically stronger" or "I don't feel as tired as I used to after a hard spin - since taking up the new method of training".
Has this training regime improved performances on the bike?
We do keep records of training/race performances for our members.
I would suggest that we take a sample over a number of weeks to see if what
they claim, has actually materialised in the form of better training/race performances.

I will come back to you on this.

Good info! 🙂

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a group of *excellent* cyclists in peak condition who were unable to average ~33 min for a 5 mile run, let alone score well on pushups, situps, rope climb, futbol, etc. However, my next thought is to question the relevance of those other activities towards cycling, rather than wondering how new-fangled coaching methods are making cyclists so soft that they can't do all that stuff well.

For the juniors, you're basically substituting 30-min of hard running, anaerobic strength training, and futbol (intervals?), for the old routine of indoor roller rides? Depending on the intensity and frequency of the old roller rides, it wouldn't surprise me that there would be improvement in conditioning -- the new routine probably includes a lot more intensity and possibly more volume. I think the newer coaching trend is towards including more intensity during winter rides as well.

At what point in the training season did your old team used to switch from the cross-training routine to a more cycling specific routine?

frenchyge said:

Good info! 🙂

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a group of *excellent* cyclists in peak condition who were unable to average ~33 min for a 5 mile run, let alone score well on pushups, situps, rope climb, futbol, etc. However, my next thought is to question the relevance of those other activities towards cycling, rather than wondering how new-fangled coaching methods are making cyclists so soft that they can't do all that stuff well.

For the juniors, you're basically substituting 30-min of hard running, anaerobic strength training, and futbol (intervals?), for the old routine of indoor roller rides? Depending on the intensity and frequency of the old roller rides, it wouldn't surprise me that there would be improvement in conditioning -- the new routine probably includes a lot more intensity and possibly more volume. I think the newer coaching trend is towards including more intensity during winter rides as well.

At what point in the training season did your old team used to switch from the cross-training routine to a more cycling specific routine?

I'll answer your last point, first.

We used trained indoors on Monday, Wednesday and Friday - using the old regime of running, anaerobic strength training, football etc from 1st November to late January.
During this same period, we would also do outdoor train spins on the bike each Saturday and Sunday, for between 50 - 75 miles each day.
As daylight hours increased, we would move away from running, strength, football regime to more bike based specific training.

With regard to the relevance of running/strength training/indoor (aerobic) football, many on this site may be of the view that this sort of regime has no benefit to cycling.

All I can say is that our top coaches at the time (including Pat McQuaid, no less) always maintained that this type of "winter" work helped to keep the body in shape and that the strength training in particular added to performance on the bike.
In our group, we had many top class amateur cyclists, a handful of national road race champions, several future professional cyclists and a future TDF winner, participating in these training sessions.
(this would have been back in the days before heart monitors, computrainers etc).

Bringing the discussion up to date, the feedback that I am getting from my training group is that the running/strength training/indoor football regime, appears to be more demanding and more interesting for the participants, than solely doing indoor sessions on the rollers, for example.

I'm not dismissing the benefit of roller/indoor cycling training - what I am suggesting is that there might be some merit in adapting other types of training especially during winter when access to outdoor training may be restricted.

limerickman said:

That's no problem.

I help train our junior teams - ages 14 to 17.
Some of this age group have committed to the regime that I outlined above, since the first week in January.

The verbal feedback that I got from these members was that they felt that the regime helped their cycling performance.
Before Jan 08, none of them had undergone a similar regime.
The verbal feedback which I got from them was along the lines of "I feel physically stronger" or "I don't feel as tired as I used to after a hard spin - since taking up the new method of training".
Has this training regime improved performances on the bike?
We do keep records of training/race performances for our members.
I would suggest that we take a sample over a number of weeks to see if what
they claim, has actually materialised in the form of better training/race performances.

I will come back to you on this.

I think it may be harder to prove with kids in that age group that improvment in strength came from anything specific as they naturally tend to increase in strength as they grow older but as long as they're improving and having fun then it's all good.

I think that for the kids it's great to have an all round ability in sports. Whether it leads to bike specific improvement is up for debate but unless someone of that age shows promise of a Sean Kelly like ability then putting them through activities that will promote general development in all areas of strength and conditioning (legs, arms, back, core etc) probably can't be seen as a bad thing.

You should have them play rugby outside during the winter. We used to do that at school in *cough* sunny Bolton when it was too cold to play football (soccer to our American friends)... I never did get the logic behind that but those 100 mile winter club runs on the bike where you'd come back with the balaclarva all iced up never did seem that bad after the first few rugby games. 😄

limerickman said:

We used trained indoors on Monday, Wednesday and Friday - using the old regime of running, anaerobic strength training, football etc from 1st November to late January.
During this same period, we would also do outdoor train spins on the bike each Saturday and Sunday, for between 50 - 75 miles each day.

In terms of intensity and duration, that sounds a lot like my weekly routine (ie, more intensity during the week and more duration on the weekend).

limerickman said:

With regard to the relevance of running/strength training/indoor (aerobic) football, many on this site may be of the view that this sort of regime has no benefit to cycling.

It's less specific than riding, and seems unlikely to improve biking power more than riding at a similar intensity/volume. However, in terms of base period conditioning, meaning preparing the body to receive a greater load of more specific training in later periods, it's probably pretty darn good. (see more comments below)

limerickman said:

Bringing the discussion up to date, the feedback that I am getting from my training group is that the running/strength training/indoor football regime, appears to be more demanding and more interesting for the participants, than solely doing indoor sessions on the rollers, for example.

I'm not dismissing the benefit of roller/indoor cycling training - what I am suggesting is that there might be some merit in adapting other types of training especially during winter when access to outdoor training may be restricted.

I don't disagree at all, and this is where it's possible that the previous bike-specific winter training program might not be as good as it could be. Some of the "old-school" winter programs were so dull and pointless, with weeks spent noodling along on the road or hours spent on rollers doing one-legged drills, high cadence "smoothness" drills, riding with no hands, etc., that pretty much any other activity could be equally effective for base period preparation. I'm not saying that your winter program was like this at all, just that I could easily envision a scenario where folks switching from a traditional winter bike program to a cross-training program felt more enthusiastic, mentally fresher, and that they were physically better prepared to start a more specific build period on the bike.

Where I think the newer coaching trends are heading is towards making the winter on-bike programs more interesting and beneficial, so that an athlete comes out of the base period not only ready for greater training volume, but also riding better than when they started the program. There was a lot of merit in some of those old-school programs, and I think many of us are trying to build upon those by taking the good ideas and making them more bike specific whenever practical. The various training gizmos are all geared towards making the time spent more effective, and I think they really help during winter rides indoors. Good discussion! 🙂

swampy1970 said:

I think it may be harder to prove with kids in that age group that improvment in strength came from anything specific as they naturally tend to increase in strength as they grow older but as long as they're improving and having fun then it's all good.

I think that for the kids it's great to have an all round ability in sports. Whether it leads to bike specific improvement is up for debate but unless someone of that age shows promise of a Sean Kelly like ability then putting them through activities that will promote general development in all areas of strength and conditioning (legs, arms, back, core etc) probably can't be seen as a bad thing.

You should have them play rugby outside during the winter. We used to do that at school in *cough* sunny Bolton when it was too cold to play football (soccer to our American friends)... I never did get the logic behind that but those 100 mile winter club runs on the bike where you'd come back with the balaclarva all iced up never did seem that bad after the first few rugby games. 😄

Swamp - we're from the same neck of the woods more or else (Britain/Ireland), and I know that you have raced at a pretty high level.
My question to you is : did you undergo non-cycling training in winter as well?

As I said earlier, we did go for those 50 - 75 mile training spins on sat and sun in rain/hail/sleet/snow : because we had sufficient daylight to do so.
And I agree on a particularly bad day, weatherwise, it was misery being out on a bike in those conditions.
But the thinking was that pedalling in those conditions made us suffer and it became more a mental test rather than a physical test.

Incidentally my grandmother was born and raised in Bolton Lancs.
I well remember visiting inlaws just off the Deane Road when I was a youngster.
Bolton Wanderers football ground - the coldest premiership ground in all of England, so they say!

frenchyge said:

In terms of intensity and duration, that sounds a lot like my weekly routine (ie, more intensity during the week and more duration on the weekend).

It's less specific than riding, and seems unlikely to improve biking power more than riding at a similar intensity/volume. However, in terms of base period conditioning, meaning preparing the body to receive a greater load of more specific training in later periods, it's probably pretty darn good. (see more comments below)

I don't disagree at all, and this is where it's possible that the previous bike-specific winter training program might not be as good as it could be. Some of the "old-school" winter programs were so dull and pointless, with weeks spent noodling along on the road or hours spent on rollers doing one-legged drills, high cadence "smoothness" drills, riding with no hands, etc., that pretty much any other activity could be equally effective for base period preparation. I'm not saying that your winter program was like this at all, just that I could easily envision a scenario where folks switching from a traditional winter bike program to a cross-training program felt more enthusiastic, mentally fresher, and that they were physically better prepared to start a more specific build period on the bike.

Where I think the newer coaching trends are heading is towards making the winter on-bike programs more interesting and beneficial, so that an athlete comes out of the base period not only ready for greater training volume, but also riding better than when they started the program. There was a lot of merit in some of those old-school programs, and I think many of us are trying to build upon those by taking the good ideas and making them more bike specific whenever practical. The various training gizmos are all geared towards making the time spent more effective, and I think they really help during winter rides indoors. Good discussion! 🙂

I agree :

Having been out of competitive cycling for years, and then going back to help at my (new) local club and to help train youngsters there, I was surprised at the how cycling specific the winter training was.
All winter training consisted of roller work with one spin at the weekend, either on sat or sunday.
There was no non-cycling training whatsoever.
In fact, all the younsters were being told was to "spend time on the bike and push the biggest gear possible".

When I asked about non-cycling training, I was asked what was I talking about !
I explained the regime that I outlined here earlier, to the club organisers, and one of the older guys at the club immediately said "that's what we used to do, years ago".
So both him and me suggested to the other club members that we trial this regime to see if it would help younsters to train/improve.

Other issues that I highlighted was cadence training or "the method" as it used to be called over here.
This entailed a rider having to maintain a specific number of revs in a specific gear, for a specific period of time.
The outcome being that the rider develops a natural, economical pedalling action/rthymn.
No one at the club had heard of that type of training.
(again this method, predates heart monitors, bike computers etc).

limerickman said:

Swamp - we're from the same neck of the woods more or else (Britain/Ireland), and I know that you have raced at a pretty high level.
My question to you is : did you undergo non-cycling training in winter as well?

As I said earlier, we did go for those 50 - 75 mile training spins on sat and sun in rain/hail/sleet/snow : because we had sufficient daylight to do so.
And I agree on a particularly bad day, weatherwise, it was misery being out on a bike in those conditions.
But the thinking was that pedalling in those conditions made us suffer and it became more a mental test rather than a physical test.

Incidentally my grandmother was born and raised in Bolton Lancs.
I well remember visiting inlaws just off the Deane Road when I was a youngster.
Bolton Wanderers football ground - the coldest premiership ground in all of England, so they say!

If I did anything other than cycling in the winter it wasn't a planned thing nor did I do anything else on a regular basis. I did try weights for a while, about 4 months over the course of one winter and all that I seemingly got out of it was an extra 5lb and sore arms and legs. That said, I'd never do what a lot of cyclists would do and not do something because it wasn't cycling. I didn't take a break from training after the hill climbs at the end of the year and instead just took the odd session off if I ended up doing something else between Nov and Feb.

The biggest increases during the winter were noted after not going out on the clubruns, which were typically a 'sit and spin' affair for a couple of hours in 42x16 until you reached a cafe about 40 to 50 miles away, eat stuff and then ride back and changing that too 3 hours at a hard tempo pace - typically 20 to 21 mph on the flat. That was changed the following winter to 2 hour sessions nearing 50 mile tt percieved effort. If done on the "hi-tech" 531 TT bike in my little picture, I'd be doing at 24 to 25 mph on the flat - but it's not the flattest of areas around there so I'd usually cover ~45 to 46 miles. I say perceived effort as factors such as slighlty stuggling to hold a time trial position when decked out in 2 layers of winter thermals would elevate the heart rate slightly and shoulder fatigue with all that stuff on wouldn't help either. I think all that riding in the race position with all the gear on helped as much as the training itself - achieving that Boardman like position with a really comfy Descente skinsuit was a piece of cake during time trials.

Deane Road eh? I had Grandparents that lived just off Deane Rd too... Hmmm.

I only every visited Burden Park and latterly the Reebok when Man United played there - ever since I was a kid who's favortite colour at age 2 was red I've always been a United supporter, even when they were in division 2! The only place colder than the pitch on Burden Park was BWFC's trophy room. 😄