Good advice?

TritonRider said:

From Bike.com bike.comtemplate.aspOpen ↗
=5&lsectionname=Smart+Training&lsectiondirectory=training

Stability Training for Improved Performance Add a new dimension to your training program

From: Tim Monaco, Carmichael Training Systems - Friday, December 19, 2003

<lots snipped>
3. More challenging is using free weights (dumbbells) in each hand and still lying on a bench.
This requires you to stabilize each weight individually as you go through the movement.
4. Now we are getting to what is considered stability training. We add to the basic exercise an
unstable environment in the form of a stability ball. We can lie on the ball and do the
exercise, which requires very high levels or coordination and stability. This includes muscles
that support and assist the primary muscles and also all the stabilizers in the trunk, as you
have to hold yourself in position to do the exercise. Doing the exercise this way makes it self
limiting in the amount of weight you can use, making it less likely that you will have an
injury. You can only move the amount of weight that your whole system can handle. You will
usually need to lower the weight used as you increase the stability requirements.
5. Now things are getting interesting. At this point you could add a balance disc or board under
one or both feet. This requires a very high level of skill and coordination. I would not
recommend jumping to this level until you have mastered number 4!

#3 is sensible and very effective for correcting imbalances and is safer that
using a bar if you don't have a good spotter.
#4 is getting fairly dangerous. I'm not a big fan of having a weight over my
head when I'm unstable. There are better and safer ways to work the supporting muscles.
#5 is a friggin cicrus act, and probably more conducive to injury than most of
the common ones. This is pretty scary advice coming from a "certified" coach. Even someone with a
lot of experience would be nuts to try 4, or even more so 5 without at least a certified strength
and conditioning coach overseeing this just to make sure the biomechanics were done correctly.
Incorrect form with weights, especially where the back is involved is BAD news. Bill C

Your conclusion is quite correct, but some of this work can be done safely even without supervision.

With no computer jobs opening up (or rather, very few with hundreds of competing resumes), I'm very
close to getting certified as a personal trainer, going through www.nasm.org. As a serious
exerciser/cyclist for my whole life, I'm learning tons.

Stability training is the latest trend in the trendy fitness industry. The rationale is that in
recent decades our lifestyle has become very automated, and our bodies aren't keeping up. Postural
distortions are rife, and analysis of the body leads to the conclusion that this is bad. This trend
sounds like it'll stick around for quite a while, since the world isn't going to change back
anytime soon.

Studies of back pain world-wide have concluded that there's more back pain in developed countries
than in less developed countries. The suspicion is that the higher day-to-day work load leads to
better overall body strength, especially in the body's core. We have three layers of stabilizing
muscle in our abdomen, not including the main movers (obliques and rectus abdominis). Think about
why we've got those muscles, and the implications of under-development of same.

The typical personal training client comes with one or more of three general postural distortions:
cervical spine (neck), lumbo-pelvic (hips), lower leg (tight calves). Starting a weight-training or
conditioning program with these existing problems is asking for trouble in addition to the added
strength and fitness that comes with it. Lifting weights or cardio training alone will not address
lower back pain, chronic knee pain or neck pain. It can easily aggravate it, as you note.

The exercises you list are safe when done correctly and with proper progression. Supervision is
ALWAYS a good idea.

As a cyclist, I've always been in superb shape and "strong enough" especially in my legs. But I've
concluded in my studies that I have the hip problems, leading to chronic, usually mild, lower-back
pain. This is because I cycle for the majority of my exercise, and my career has me sitting down for
most of the day. My lower spine easily goes into extension, my pelvis is tilted slightly downard, my
hamstrings are perpetually stretched (feeling tight all the time), and I compensate for my ab
weakness with strong hip flexors.

So, I've avoided the barbells and use dumbells, I've taken the occasional Reebok Core Board class
(being the only guy in a room full of sweaty, generally hard-bodied women works for me), and most
importantly started using the stability ball. I'm also making my way through the whole battery of
stability and strength exercises in the program I'm studying (for obvious reasons), and my core
muscles are strengthening, my posture is improving, my back & abs are stronger and more supple and
my back is less annoyed on long bike rides. I also feel stronger overall without having added
significant muscle mass.

With the stability ball or any new exercise (of course), start light and easy. Teach your muscles to
do the stability ball dumbell flyes with 5 or 10-lb bars. As you learn to actively brace yourself
with your legs, abs, glutes and back, add weight. Better, start with just the stability ball, doing
bridges, crunches and cobras. Again, supervision is very valuable at least during the initial
learning process, and as you progress to more demanding exercise.

A useful alternative is to do unilateral dumbell lifts while standing on one leg. Keep your form
correct throughout. When I started adding this simple variation, I immediately felt like about fifty
other muscles had come into play.

The exercises I'm currently doing are cable-based, pulling the cable across the body horizontally
and diagonally using only my core muscles. They kicked my ass yesterday.

If you think the ball dumbell fly is scary, think about the top level of my progression with a
medicine ball. There's one exercise that scares the [censored] out of me now, the ball-medicine ball
throw. Bridge on a stability ball with a medicine ball held straight overhead, then crunch and throw
the medicine ball against a wall. That's a back (or head) injury waiting to happen with my current
strength. I don't even want to try it with a basketball at this point, but will soon.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Quoted message said:

Stability training is the latest trend in the trendy fitness industry. The rationale is that in
recent decades our lifestyle has become very automated, and our bodies aren't keeping up. Postural
distortions are rife, and analysis of the body leads to the conclusion that this is bad. This trend
sounds like it'll stick around for quite a while, since the world isn't going to change back
anytime soon.

<snip> Agreed. Now we've identified set of problems/symptoms.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Studies of back pain world-wide have concluded that there's more back pain in developed countries
than in less developed countries. The suspicion is that the higher day-to-day work load leads to
better overall body strength, especially in the body's core. We have three layers of stabilizing
muscle in our abdomen, not including the main movers (obliques and rectus abdominis). Think about
why we've got those muscles, and the implications of under-development of same.

<snip> The level of muscular weakness and imbalance is incredible, but as you pointed out with
todays work environment being more skill than labor based it should've been predicted and was by a
lot of people. <snip>

Quoted message said:

The typical personal training client comes with one or more of three general postural distortions:
cervical spine (neck), lumbo-pelvic (hips), lower leg (tight calves).

<snip> I haven't seen the studies but this makes sense due to the primarily seated and sedentary
nature of most work done by people who are likely to hire a personal trainer. <snip>

Quoted message said:

Starting a weight-training or conditioning program with these existing problems is asking for
trouble in addition to the added strength and fitness that comes with it. Lifting weights or cardio
training alone will not address lower back pain, chronic knee pain or neck pain. It can easily
aggravate it, as you note.

This is where we disagree. After the client was screened by a sports medicine oriented physician to
identify any preexisting problems you can build a program of weight training that is safe and
effective. If the deficiencies are bad enough you are basically starting in the realm of physical
therapy (Thinking about it this way, we may be in agreement after all). That is where things like
therapy balls, unweighted exercises, Theraband etc... Once we reach the point where we are not
addressing a level of weakness that comes under the heading of a medical problem the options open
up. <snip>>With the stability ball or any new exercise (of course), start light and

Quoted message said:

easy. Teach your muscles to do the stability ball dumbell flyes with 5 or 10-lb bars. As you learn
to actively brace yourself with your legs, abs, glutes and back, add weight. Better, start with
just the stability ball, doing bridges, crunches and cobras. Again, supervision is very valuable at
least during the initial learning process, and as you progress to more demanding exercise.

<snip> I have no problem with this given the light weight being used, and more importantly the
use of the legs firmly grounded to provided stablilty once you have learned to do the
exercises properly.

The one legged dumbell lift and the cable work are things I have done. The medicine ball bit seems
like an accident in the making. This sounds like a plyometric type of exercise done from an
anstable position, that scares me. The way I've always worked was to evaluate the person and their
goals first. Next was to set up a program based on establishing flexibilty and core strength.
Generally rowing machine for warmup, light stretching, I prefer machine ab crunches as it is a more
controlled exercise, machine torso twists, side crunches with a single dumbell to both sides.Cable
crunches, twists, etc.. also for variety. For back unwieghted "Good Mornings" light deadlifts,
Various rows etc. I've found that it's very easy to overdevelop the back with respect to the abs
and obliques so you've got to be careful. I think that the emphasis on stability balls etc.. is
more the flavor of the week than anything else. As you said you're also dealing with much weaker
individuals today. I guess I'm just old school in that I stress being solidly grounded and stable
at all times. I've seen too many injuries from people twisting wrong,monetarily losing control
with, or for that matter without weight. There are a lot of advanced exercises that I like to do
that I'd never reccommend to anyone who couldn't feel every muscle move because they are dangerous,
but also very effective. One of my favorites in this category is straight leg deadlifts while
standing on a box or bench. Good luck with your certification just don't get caught up in the
trends for trendyness sake. Bill C

TritonRider wrote: <snippage>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Starting a weight-training or conditioning program with these existing problems is asking for
trouble in addition to the added strength and fitness that comes with it. Lifting weights or
cardio training alone will not address lower back pain, chronic knee pain or neck pain. It can
easily aggravate it, as you note.

This is where we disagree. After the client was screened by a sports medicine oriented physician
to identify any preexisting problems you can build a program of weight training that is safe and
effective. If the deficiencies are bad enough you are basically starting in the realm of
physical therapy (Thinking about it this way, we may be in agreement after all). That is where
things like therapy balls, unweighted exercises, Theraband etc... Once we reach the point where
we are not addressing a level of weakness that comes under the heading of a medical problem the
options open up.

Well, all those "physical therapy" apparati seem to be the starting point for the typical CPT client
nowadays. Perhaps someone with much more experience than I (you, maybe) can answer whether this is a
recent development.

Quoted message said:

<snip>>With the stability ball or any new exercise (of course),

start light

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

easy. Teach your muscles to do the stability ball dumbell flyes with 5 or 10-lb bars. As you
learn to actively brace yourself with your legs, abs, glutes and back, add weight. Better, start
with just the stability ball, doing bridges, crunches and cobras. Again, supervision is very
valuable at least during the initial learning process, and as you progress to more demanding
exercise.

<snip> I have no problem with this given the light weight being used, and more importantly the
use of the legs firmly grounded to provided stablilty once you have learned to do the exercises
properly.

The one legged dumbell lift and the cable work are things I have done. The
medicine ball bit seems like an accident in the making. This sounds like a
plyometric type of exercise done from an anstable position, that scares me.

That's exactly what it is, and that's why it's at the advanced end of the NASM program's
progression. I've only done one workout with the medicine ball, and I made sure to drive it with my
hips while moving it around. It could well be that I'm not strong enough for it. For this reason,
I've stepped back in the program to the cable, ball weights and other, simpler proprioceptive
challenges.

The program STARTS with "iso abs" (bridging elbow-to-toes face down), one-leg balance with or
without reach/squat, multiplane hops, etc.

Quoted message said:

The way I've always worked was to evaluate the person and their goals first. Next was to set up a
program based on establishing flexibilty and core strength. Generally rowing machine for warmup,
light stretching, I prefer machine ab crunches as it is a more controlled exercise, machine torso
twists, side crunches with a single dumbell to both sides.Cable crunches, twists, etc.. also for
variety. For back unwieghted "Good Mornings" light deadlifts, Various rows etc. I've found that
it's very easy to overdevelop the back with respect to the abs and obliques so you've got to be
careful.

That's identical to NASM's process, except for the specific exercises. They give weight machines
scant recognition, I think because they preach controlled instability and proprioceptive challenge,
both to continue stability training from start to finish and to burn more calories in a shorter
workout. (I'll note that I haven't quite finished my study, in fact I've just started the strength
training section. So a lot of those machines might show up in the manual.)

I'll keep in mind your note about back development.

I've gotten the impression that the traditional machines in most gyms are very valuable for those
exercisers who don't have trainers. It lets you strength train while limiting injury risk. But if
you use them with altered posture, they won't do much to fix you.

Quoted message said:

I think that the emphasis on stability balls etc.. is more the flavor of the week than anything
else. As you said you're also dealing with much weaker individuals today. I guess I'm just old
school in that I stress being solidly grounded and stable at all times. I've seen too many
injuries from people twisting wrong,monetarily losing control with, or for that matter without
weight.

But isn't watching for such breaks in form (part of) what you're paying the trainer for? (I ask
sincerely - please set me straight if necessary.)

Quoted message said:

There are a lot of advanced exercises that I like to do that I'd never reccommend to anyone who
couldn't feel every muscle move because they are dangerous, but also very effective. One of my
favorites in this category is straight leg deadlifts while standing on a box or bench.

Is that an unstable box or bench? If not, how is it different from standing on the floor?

Quoted message said:

Good luck with your certification just don't get caught up in the trends for trendyness
sake. Bill C

Thanks!

I'll accept that big squishy balls and floaty boards are a fad, but core/stability development
itself sounds nicely fundamental to me. ISTR hearing about advanced athletes doing this kind of
stuff way back in the 70's.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"