Threshold workouts: New thinking

They're not new and I don't know if you've tried them yet, but I've been getting consistent and sustained results with over/unders. I'll alternate doing a minute at 10% above and below FTP for whatever time interval I decide. You can vary these as you see fit...percentage, time above/below, etc...

Have no idea if they are effective but have setup on the home trainer some "steps", basically just increasing power every minute or 5 minutes or whatever by say 20 watts at a time to 30% above FTP then bringing down again.

Current one I am using stars at 150 watts and goes up 20 watts every 30 secs and down again by the same margin, peaking at 410 watts.

Hurts, a lot.

Nothing new under the sun as Tony said but I had a great workout last sunday. I started riding without better plan. It was a really heavy wind and I had to push to keep the bike moving so I ended up riding just a bit under FTP-level. First I thought 40 minutes would be good but once I got there I decided to go for an hour. At that point I didn't even look at the time but just continued and continued until I got back to city where I had to slow down. Ended up with 1,5 hours 0,95 IF. I actually felt great after that but the next day I could really feel it in my legs.

As long as the weather permits I am planning to continue "overlong" L4/SST outdoors where I do not need any extra motivation, but sooner or later probably sooner the trainer season is in front and here's my variation of over-under/hour-of-power theme: start riding steady 0.9 IF. Every full 5 minutes hit hard 1.15-1.2 IF for 30 secs. Return to 0.9. Every starting 3 minutes after full 5 (so eg. 3, 8, 13, etc) raise the power a bit over FTP (say 1.05 IF) for 1 minute.

The key is not the exact minutes or power figures but regularity. There is no any physiologial reasoning for this but the idea is to kill time. With hard parts coming regularly after couple of rounds you change your thinking from "time is going sooo slowly" to "oh no time is going so fast" when you are begging for recovery. With this I can do longish intervals on trainer and also with very good average power.

+1 for the idea of over/under training. If you are training for racing, this simulates the efforts that you'll be putting forth. When I do such workouts, either indoors or out, I always try to get "over" as fast as possible. Without straining, I push my cadence and up my gear to really simulate a "break," or an attempt to bridge up. It's pretty fun, and keeps your workouts interesting. I usually don't do over/under workouts until I have a pretty good base, or about one month or more into a training cycle.

My off-season training has always been threshold-based. One of the keys to avoiding boredom is finding the correct power level. For me, this is around 90% of my last 20 minute test. I can ride an hour a this level day after day without feeling bored or over-reaching. Any more than this level and the perceived exertion becomes exponentially harder.

I do agree that mixing things up a bit also makes indoor training more tolerable. This can include over/under type workouts. What I do is get out of the saddle for a couple minutes every 15 minutes or so, raising the effort slightly. Over the last couple minutes of the workout I ramp my effort to about 10% above FTP but never high enough to feel totally wiped.

IMHO, during winter "maintenance" the volume of meaningful work is more important than intensity. I would rather keep to a level that allows for a high volume of "sweet spot" training than risk burnout by attempting more intense workouts, as the reward from marginally increasing intensity does not justify the risk.

john979 said:

IMHO, during winter "maintenance" the volume of meaningful work is more important than intensity. I would rather keep to a level that allows for a high volume of "sweet spot" training than risk burnout by attempting more intense workouts, as the reward from marginally increasing intensity does not justify the risk.

Agreed, so long as you are in "maintenance" mode as you mentioned. However, if your winter goal is to increase threshold power, such as the OP, then you will need to increase the intensity.

The stuff mentioned above is all good

spinner32 said:

If you are training for racing, this simulates the efforts that you'll be putting forth.

As I get closer to the start of racing season (4-6 weeks), I will start doing 30/30's, which I do as 30 seconds @ ~133% of FTP followed by 30 seconds @ ~66%, repeat this on/off/on/off for 20 minutes. Do 1 or 2 sets of these 1 or 2 times per week. Historically I have struggled in the early season criteriums, which also happen to be my first races of the year. Doing several sessions of these help to lower the perceived exertion of the race.

From what I have read, you can think of this as sort of threshold work - it has a similar cardiovascular and metabolic demand to a steady threshold interval but the neuromuscular demand is more appropriate for on/off racing. I would not use it preparing for a time trial.

tonyzackery said:

Agreed, so long as you are in "maintenance" mode as you mentioned. However, if your winter goal is to increase threshold power, such as the OP, then you will need to increase the intensity.

Please note I said that I set my one hour training level on about 90% of my last 20 minute test. I test every 3 weeks or so. Thus, the actual wattage is continually increasing, as is my FTP. I only used the word "maintenance" because I dislike the term "base."

john979 said:

Please note I said that I set my one hour training level on about 90% of my last 20 minute test. I test every 3 weeks or so. Thus, the actual wattage is continually increasing, as is my FTP. I only used the word "maintenance" because I dislike the term "base."

John do you do these 20m tests in your off season aswell to make sure your 20MP has not decreased or increased or is your off season not long enough to cause a fluctuation in 20MP?

Steve_B said:

I would not use it preparing for a time trial.

Why would that be? Wouldn't it be exactly simulating variable power pacing strategy?

bubsy said:

John do you do these 20m tests in your off season aswell to make sure your 20MP has not decreased or increased or is your off season not long enough to cause a fluctuation in 20MP?

My "off-season" begins with getting reaclimated to the trainer, in my case a PT300. After three weeks or so, I perform my first 20 minute test and do so every three weeks or so until my threshold power plateaus.

john979 said:

Please note I said that I set my one hour training level on about 90% of my last 20 minute test. I test every 3 weeks or so. Thus, the actual wattage is continually increasing, as is my FTP. I only used the word "maintenance" because I dislike the term "base."

I have no intention to be pedantic here but "maintenance" and "base" training are two totally different training regimens. "Base" is an appropriate term in that it is synonomous with establishing a foundation, which is exactly what it is meant to do. The foundation for which higher intensity exercise can supported upon. Maintenance is doing just enough work to sustain the gains in fitness already achieved.

frost said:

Why would that be? Wouldn't it be exactly simulating variable power pacing strategy?

I'm not Steve_B and I'll jump in here anyway.

This is an example of where Quadrant Analysis comes in handy. If one were to look at a QA of a variable power paced TT and a crit, you would see 2 markedly different images. This is because the "variable" TT is not nearly as "variable" as a crit (which is what Steve_B's intervals are mimicking.

Dave

dkrenik said:

I'm not Steve_B and I'll jump in here anyway.

This is an example of where Quadrant Analysis comes in handy. If one were to look at a QA of a variable power paced TT and a crit, you would see 2 markedly different images. This is because the "variable" TT is not nearly as "variable" as a crit (which is what Steve_B's intervals are mimicking.

Dave

Here's couple of links to this years Tour De France TT:s (by Adam Hansen, there also file available at least for David Millars Cholet-Cholet).
http://www2.trainingpeaks.com/tourfiles/stage-four-2008.aspx
http://www2.trainingpeaks.com/tourfiles/stage-20-adam-hansen.aspx

I haven't run QA for these but to me it looks like the variability is quite sizeable especially in the first TT in hilly terrain with heavy wind or am I totally lost?
(ok, I am not saying these are examples of variable power strategy or that they are even well paced (I wouldn't know that) but they are real world examples of TT)

tonyzackery said:

I have no intention to be pedantic here but "maintenance" and "base" training are two totally different training regimens. "Base" is an appropriate term in that it is synonomous with establishing a foundation, which is exactly what it is meant to do. The foundation for which higher intensity exercise can supported upon. Maintenance is doing just enough work to sustain the gains in fitness already achieved.

I purposely avoid the term base because of its Friel low-intensity implications to many. Moreover, my "base" comes from many accumulated years of riding, not from what I do during the winter. Therefore, my off-season is goal is to maintain my fitness level so it can be peaked at the appropriate time. Does this mean doing just enough work to sustain gains already acheived -- absolutely, as less is often more, in this case less volume at a higher average IF.

frost said:

Here's couple of links to this years Tour De France TT:s (by Adam Hansen, there also file available at least for David Millars Cholet-Cholet).
www2.trainingpeaks.comstage four 2008.aspxOpen ↗
www2.trainingpeaks.comstage 20 adam hansen.aspxOpen ↗

I haven't run QA for these but to me it looks like the variability is quite sizeable especially in the first TT in hilly terrain with heavy wind or am I totally lost?
(ok, I am not saying these are examples of variable power strategy or that they are even well paced (I wouldn't know that) but they are real world examples of TT)

How about doing the QA then and see what you find?

Alex Simmons said:

How about doing the QA then and see what you find?

I cannot say that I am anyhow experienced or knowledgeable in the area so any advices, corrections and comments are very welcome.
To me the QA of Hansens Cholet-Cholet ITT looks quite much like the example picture of 15s on/off microintervals in A.Coggans homepage home.earthlink.netid9.htmlOpen ↗

Pity there wasn't cadence data in Millars file!

(Sorry for going a little off topic here...)

Edit1: I took a closer look at the QA examples and noticed that comparing to microinterval Hansens QA contained somewhat less upper right quadrant. On the other hand I also did QA for my own exercise done according to description above (30s 120%, 150s 90%, 60s 105%, 60s 90% repeat) and it was almost exactly like the example of flat TT. Maybe I am not doing those "intervals" as expected but softpedal to higher power.

Edit2: Changed the "Threshold cadence" to 102 rpm (from 88) and now the QA looks much more as "expected" for TT. Hmm, obviously there is something to learn here [img]cyclingforums.comwink.gifOpen ↗[/img]!

One thing that cannot be overlooked while doing threshold work is cadence. To the OP: have you tried completing your intervals at varied cadences? Doing them at your preferred cadence versus doing them at 10rpm above will make for a totally different workout.

Reason why I bring this up is that I'm now in training for track season. I thus do my intervals on my fixed gear track bike and the higher rpm involved (for the same relative power output on my road bike) places a significant strain on my cardiovascular and muscular systems. As such, significant adaptations are in order - which are what we're all looking for.

Again, doing threshold intervals at a cadence above your preferred is nothing new but it is definitely worth implementing.