off season training goal

There's no way I could do a set of 5x5 intervals of decent quality on the same day of a 2x20 workout. That sounds pretty intense for an off season plan.

strader said:

There's no way I could do a set of 5x5 intervals of decent quality on the same day of a 2x20 workout. That sounds pretty intense for an off season plan.

Well my plan was to touch on the low side of L4 for 2x20's & the low side of L5 5x5's. For example, my 20 min power is 220w. So the way I plan it is to perform 2x20's @ 200w. 120% of 200 is 240; perfect for 5 min VO2 style intervals. I was planning on cutting it to about 230w. cut the intensity a bit to fit more work time.

It is bit excessive, but I don't have any other time to ride, especially for more than an hour & a half. I'm kind of comparing myself to some other group riders who happen to have a lot of time to ride. Like 2-3 hours a day. They're strong. Really strong. But they have the time to ride & make different riding plans. I guess I'm trying to match the longer time for a more intense workout. For some reason, I have this saying in my mind: "to get stronger, ride lots." I've seen it many times on this forum. By just doing a set of 2x20's for one day just doesn't seem like much comparison to someone who rides a 3hr ride for one day. I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it in the wrong direction. Which is why I posted this. I needed some direction.

I don't have time to post any real training advice right now, but I'd suggest getting real about the time that you have to train, rather than trying to match what others are doing. Hopefully those other folks aren't racing Cat 5 and so you won't have to worry about how strong they are until later.

Amateur racing is for fun, so I'd suggest you consider whether you're okay with losing to folks that are training 14-20 hr/wk before you get too far into it. What you've described above sounds like a pretty brutal off-season for a prospective Cat 5.

roadster99 said:

[font=Verdana]It is bit excessive[/font], but I don't have any other time to ride, [font=Verdana]especially for more than an hour & a half[/font]. I'm kind of comparing myself to some other group riders who happen to have a lot of time to ride. Like 2-3 hours a day. They're strong. Really strong. But they have the time to ride & make different riding plans. [font=Verdana]I guess I'm trying to match the longer time for a more intense workout. [/font][font=Verdana]For some reason, I have this saying in my mind: "to get stronger, ride lots." I've seen it many times on this forum. [/font][font=Verdana]By just doing a set of 2x20's for one day just doesn't seem like much comparison to someone who rides a 3hr ride for one day[/font].

[font=Times New Roman]Wow, lots to untangle here. I can’t comment on every detail but here goes.[/font]

• [font=Times New Roman]They have 2-3 hours/day to ride. Fine. I can assure you that they aren't doing more 2x20's than you (2-3 hours of 2x20's per day??? ). More likely, they are doing less. Everybody is different in how much they can take so you have to find your tolerable level.[/font]
  
• [font=Times New Roman]You are on the right track - quality over quantity wins for most people and to some extent when you have less time to train, raising the intensity (within reason) can be very helpful.[/font]
  
• [font=Times New Roman]You can do quite a bit in 90 minutes and that will certainly make you well prepared for racing in the 5's.[/font]
  
• [font=Times New Roman]I would suggest talking to a professional coach who will help sort this out for you. They really are worth it.[/font]
  
• [font=Times New Roman]Fifth, 2x20s and 5x5s on the same day is a bit much, even if there is a break during the day. Do you really need to do double sessions? Do you really think you can keep that up?[/font]
  

[font=Times New Roman]Having said all the above, my suggestions - you're working your way back from a lower state of fitness. I would spend the two weekdays you have to ride doing threshold work - 2x20's on your local hill or 60+ minutes of SST for variety. Mix them up to keep yourself from burning out. Do your group ride on Saturday. See if you can get a 4th day to ride in there as it will really help. (Consistency counts for a lot and the more often you can ride, the better off you will be. Note - I didn't say the more you ride.) [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I would suggest not killing yourself with the 5x5's. I would skip them for several months until you get your threshold improved with the rest of the work and you are closer to racing season (6-8 weeks out). You're new to all this stuff so I wouldn't suggest doing them more than once per week, otherwise the intensity may sneak up on you and end your season prematurely in burnout.[/font]

It's all in the recovery. Doing double sessions like that will kill you stone dead, both physically and mentally. Done properly, a 2x20 session will leave you pretty tired. A VO2 max session will leave you even more pooped.

It may be better to start with some SST work, start off with 2x20s then extend either duration or reps. When you can, get out on the road for 2hrs of brisk tempo.

Then tackle the threshold stuff and try to hold the upper end of the zone. 2x20s of this will certainly make you feel like you've done some work, never mind doing 3hr cruises with a bit of hard stuff thrown in.

Then top it off with 4 or 5-minute VO2 max stuff.

If you have a power meter take a note on your next group ride of just how little work of substance you actually do. Unless you're on the front all the way, you'll be in recovery or low endurance zone. You'll get far more work done on your own and concentrating on quality work.

I have a family and besides a 3hr Saturday ride with the bunch, I'm on my own on a trainer or sometimes on the road for no more than 90 minutes. On the trainer it's usually 75 minutes of threshold or VO2 max, and that's enough for me to be among the stronger boys which is no small achievement.

Most riders go out, ride and ride, then feel happy that they've had some good training cos they've done hours and hours. The smarter rider will target what he wants to achieve, do it in much less time, and recover nicely ready for more.

I read somewhere that Brad Wiggins rides 8-10hrs a week, and that gets him Olympic medals and through day-long Tour de France breakaways. You can bet he rarely does 6hr noodle rides.

Hey thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. It's hard to believe that Wiggins only trains for 8-10 hours a week. Especially after reading Frenchyge's reply. I guess it's all about what you put out on the PM. Grahamspringett, you're right about the power zones on the group ride. A lot of time is spent in the recovery zone. My question to you is how do you crank out 75 minutes of Vo2? Crazy. Steve B, I'll try what you say and just focus on getting that "base" back by focusing on the 2x20's. I'll leave the shorter, more intense Vo2 & anaerobic efforts for closer to next season. The only reason why I was thinking about the shorter efforts at this time was to try to build a higher 20 min power. I was told that to push the power upwards, you have to get your body used to pushing those numbers. For example, as I said earlier, my 20 min power is 220w. Let's say my goal for next season is, like, 270w (just a figure, I'm honestly not sure how fast you can gain 50 watts; just using it as an example). One of my riding partners said I should fit some shorter, harder Intervals (let's say 4x5's, which would equal 20 min of work) at 270w to get my body used to pushing it. The key was using the 2x20's to "bridge" it all together. Make any sense?

I was always an advocate of Quality over Quantity. But since I'm still pretty new to cycling, I guess I don't fully grasp how taxing physically & mentally Intervals are. There was an article in Bicycling Magazine about a T-Max interval. It went on to say do these intervals 3 times a week with a good day of rest in between. To me it's like, is that it? How are you going to produce gains by training only 3 times a week. Then, I try it. I just figured my fatigue was a result of being pretty puny compared to the a real seasoned cyclist. I really thank you for the advice, all who answered. Thanks for putting things into perspective a bit 😉

roadster99 said:

One of my riding partners said I should fit some shorter, harder Intervals (let's say 4x5's, which would equal 20 min of work) at 270w to get my body used to pushing it. The key was using the 2x20's to "bridge" it all together. Make any sense?

Well...you have to get used to going that hard, true. However, I think that you also have to get used to going hard (a little less hard) for a longer period of time too. 5x5's aren't going to really prepare you for 2x20's, IMO. Plus you risk overdoing it too. I understand being anxious about raising your fitness (FTP) but just be patient.

To Graham - you're right that the group ride power is low. However, if he wants to start racing next year, he needs to be very comfortable rising in a group and needs to be prepared for multiple hard short efforts that are present in racing. Plus a group ride breaks up the monotony of L4 24/7. That's why I suggested it. Hopefully his group ride is a "spirited" one with some town line sprints or hill top sprints or something.

roadster99 said:

Hey thanks for the input. I really appreciate it. It's hard to believe that Wiggins only trains for 8-10 hours a week. Especially after reading Frenchyge's reply. I guess it's all about what you put out on the PM. Grahamspringett, you're right about the power zones on the group ride. A lot of time is spent in the recovery zone. My question to you is how do you crank out 75 minutes of Vo2? Crazy. Steve B, I'll try what you say and just focus on getting that "base" back by focusing on the 2x20's. I'll leave the shorter, more intense Vo2 & anaerobic efforts for closer to next season. The only reason why I was thinking about the shorter efforts at this time was to try to build a higher 20 min power. I was told that to push the power upwards, you have to get your body used to pushing those numbers. For example, as I said earlier, my 20 min power is 220w. Let's say my goal for next season is, like, 270w (just a figure, I'm honestly not sure how fast you can gain 50 watts; just using it as an example). One of my riding partners said I should fit some shorter, harder Intervals (let's say 4x5's, which would equal 20 min of work) at 270w to get my body used to pushing it. The key was using the 2x20's to "bridge" it all together. Make any sense?

I was always an advocate of Quality over Quantity. But since I'm still pretty new to cycling, I guess I don't fully grasp how taxing physically & mentally Intervals are. There was an article in Bicycling Magazine about a T-Max interval. It went on to say do these intervals 3 times a week with a good day of rest in between. To me it's like, is that it? How are you going to produce gains by training only 3 times a week. Then, I try it. I just figured my fatigue was a result of being pretty puny compared to the a real seasoned cyclist. I really thank you for the advice, all who answered. Thanks for putting things into perspective a bit 😉

I would think that the 8-10hrs a week that Wiggins was doing was specific preparation for the pursuit and that throughout his normal training & racing regime he would have had pretty big blocks of volume in there. Quality doesn't just mean Zone 4 and above it also for me means planning a structured plan which may inlcude significant amounts of Z2 & Z3 depending on which level you ride at and what events you target.

NJK said:

I would think that the 8-10hrs a week that Wiggins was doing was specific preparation for the pursuit and that throughout his normal training & racing regime he would have had pretty big blocks of volume in there. Quality doesn't just mean Zone 4 and above it also for me means planning a structured plan which may inlcude significant amounts of Z2 & Z3 depending on which level you ride at and what events you target.

Well, the reason why I'm focusing more on L4 workouts is because I'm a bit strapped for time. If I only have like and hour to an hour & a half to ride daily, L2 & L3 won't reallly get the job done. In my opinion, L2 & L3 are only effective for rides around 2-3hrs or above. So for me to get the best "bang for the buck," I would have to focus more on L4 workouts. From reading these forums & other informative sites, that's the conclusion I come to. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

The races here in Hawaii don't include many 100+ races. In fact, there's only 1 race in this season that is over 100 miles. The only other one is the Honolulu Century Ride. Which is not a race. The rest are time trials & crits. The Hawaii State road race is only about 60 miles for cat 5 anyway. The cycling community is not as strong as it is on the mainland, and neither is the talent pool. For example, a cat 3 rider came down from the mainland & smoked all of the supposed cat 1 riders here in Hawaii during one of the crits. So you can kind of draw your own conclusions. I'm not saying that the cat 1 riders here are weak. By all means they could hold their own on the mainland. I'm just saying that since the pool is so small, I think that the competition gets a bit stale & people get a bit complacent. Just my opinions.

Another example, during the TT at the local hill I've talked about earlier, I came in 11th out of 78 riders. I was only 3 min behind the leader. Now I understand 3 min in cycling terms is a lot of time, but that's against cat 1 riders & I was an unlicensed cat 5 last season. I would have thought that the gap would be a bit bigger. So I honestly surprised myself. Although I must admit, I am only 54kg soaking wet. So my power to weight ratio naturally is decent.

My main goal is to be able to hang in the lead pack during the races and at least be somewhat competitive. A win might be nice, but I understand where I am & what I bring to the table. I would like to devote more time to training, but I just can't. A day doesn't have 30 hours to play with. I was looking for advice on what I thought would be a strong off season training plan. I received a lot of good information. I just want to be able to maximize the little time I have, show up in good shape and hopefully surprise someone next season. So my approach this off season would be to put as much effort as I can into training without burn out or overtraining. Thanks to all for the feedback. It will go to really good use.

😎

Quoted post said:

I read somewhere that Brad Wiggins rides 8-10hrs a week

I'd be very suprised if this were the case.
Apart from anything he's riding races week in week out, often stage races. That's 4 hours a day right there.