Cycling Training · Public discussion

leg power question...

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Cycling Training
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24 July 2008
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tiggere
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  1. Got a quick question on leg power...why is is that some days I can pedal for ever and still feel really fresh and other days I can pedal for 20 minutes and my legs feel like spaghetti...

    I did a really hard ride Saturday in some rolling terrain that to me looked like the Alps...it completely kicked my butt and I have not ridden since due to thunderstorms...so I had a four day rest and when I got on the bike today I rode for 1 1/2 hours and still felt like I had alot left...I was going to go on but was losing light fast and the thunder started again...

    Is it the french toast I had for dinner...I definately was not completely hydrated today so thats not it...could that be a sign that I have been pushing it too hard and need to take longer rests between my rides for recovery?

  2. tiggere said:

    Got a quick question on leg power...why is is that some days I can pedal for ever and still feel really fresh and other days I can pedal for 20 minutes and my legs feel like spaghetti...

    I did a really hard ride Saturday in some rolling terrain that to me looked like the Alps...it completely kicked my butt and I have not ridden since due to thunderstorms...so I had a four day rest and when I got on the bike today I rode for 1 1/2 hours and still felt like I had alot left...I was going to go on but was losing light fast and the thunder started again...

    Is it the french toast I had for dinner...I definately was not completely hydrated today so thats not it...could that be a sign that I have been pushing it too hard and need to take longer rests between my rides for recovery?


    It could be anything from pushing yourself too hard on some days and not being able to recover, to a nutritional issue and a thousand other items inbetween....

    If in doubt, keep a log of your riding, what you ate for breakfast/lunch/dinner and approximately how much you drank. It doesn't have to be in great detail but over time you might be able to spot a pattern.

  3. tiggere said:

    Got a quick question on leg power...why is is that some days I can pedal for ever and still feel really fresh and other days I can pedal for 20 minutes and my legs feel like spaghetti...

    That's the trick of all this power training. Most of the more knowledgeable encourage sweet spot training, (L3-low L4) and track TSS because it appears to be the optimum level to allow hard training and allow proper recovery. Go too hard to often and you will regress. Don't go hard enough, and you will decondition. Do a search on SST or TSS scores on this forum and you will see a wealth of info on how to find the optimal training point. Here is a first start at explaining the concept. I don't know anything about or endorse these guys as coaches (it just came up first on a google search) but they seem to explain the concept correctly. Ric Stern, Andy Coggan, Alex Simmons, Wyoming Dave and others on this forum have written extensively about the same concepts.
    [url="http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspot.html"][u]fascatcoaching.comsweetspot.html[/u][/url]

  4. [quote="kopride"]I don't know anything about or endorse these guys as coaches (it just came up first on a google search) but they seem to explain the concept correctly. Ric Stern, Andy Coggan, Alex Simmons, Wyoming Dave and others on this forum have written extensively about the same concepts.
    [url="http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspot.html"][u][size=2]fascatcoaching.comsweetspot.html[/u][/size][/url][/QUOTE]Just to clarify: Frank Overton (author of the linked article) is generally credited with having identified the concept of a sweet-spot in the intensity spectrum which allows for the greatest total training stimulus. The others have discussed and expanded upon his ideas at length.

  5. frenchyge said:

    Just to clarify: Frank Overton (author of the linked article) is generally credited with having identified the concept of a sweet-spot in the intensity spectrum which allows for the greatest total training stimulus. The others have discussed and expanded upon his ideas at length.


    Overton uses Andy's cool color diagram on his web site so I wasn't sure who really was the man to credit. This is why I never want to win an Oscar . . . I won't know who to thank profusely, other than the academy. In any event, since Ric Stern is nice enough to sponsor this forum, I didn't want to be seen as endorsing a competitor. But given the OP is surprised that he felt beat after a hard ride, and then felt great after a few days layoff, SST seemed like the basic concept he should start with.

  6. I am not an expert and not a Powertap user yet but I can relate Monday was a good ride on the rollers 152avg HR (PE=L4 aprox) 174 max. Tuesday was a great ride outdoors 153avg HR (PE=L4 aprox) 176 max. Wednesday was awful on the rollers but I did the hour anyways 133avg HR (PE=L2 aprox) 155max. In retrospect I think I over did it Tuesday. I'm hoping for a good work out tonight on the rollers I would imagine dialing in a repeatable workout for 4 consecutive days would be easier with a PT but that is a big investment... Lurking this forum for ideas has me riding faster than I've ever rode a bike in my life right now and it's free.🙂

    tiggere said:

    Got a quick question on leg power...why is is that some days I can pedal for ever and still feel really fresh and other days I can pedal for 20 minutes and my legs feel like spaghetti...

    I did a really hard ride Saturday in some rolling terrain that to me looked like the Alps...it completely kicked my butt and I have not ridden since due to thunderstorms...so I had a four day rest and when I got on the bike today I rode for 1 1/2 hours and still felt like I had alot left...I was going to go on but was losing light fast and the thunder started again...

    Is it the french toast I had for dinner...I definately was not completely hydrated today so thats not it...could that be a sign that I have been pushing it too hard and need to take longer rests between my rides for recovery?

  7. tiggere said:

    ...could that be a sign that I have been pushing it too hard and need to take longer rests between my rides for recovery?

    As the other guys have pointed out it could be a lot of things. But everybody has great days and off days and developing a training/racing plan that manages fatigue and recovery and provides freshness when you need it most is a challenge for everyone. There are tools that help, even something as simple as a hand written training log can help you spot patterns and figure out how your body reacts to training stress. A lot of us use tools like the Performance Manager feature in WKO+ driven by power meter data to visualize training load and predict fatigue/freshness but it's still a bit of a black art where you've got to listen to your body, take into account other life stresses and figure out what works for you.

    One thing to pay close attention to is how you fuel yourself after finishing a ride or workout. Getting carbs along with a bit of protein on board in the critical half hour after finishing a workout is key to keeping your muscle glycogen topped up. That alone goes a long way towards being able to stay fresh throughout your training week but you also have to consider your training mix, how much rest you get, what other life stresses you have to deal with, etc.

    And just to make it really confusing, too much rest can be a problem as well. Everybody needs to rest, that's when your body gets the chance to recover and when the actual fitness adaptations occur. But too much rest before a big ride leaves most folks feeling blocked up with dead muscles. That's why it makes sense to do an openers ride the day before a big event and to avoid taking too many rest days before an important ride where you want to feel strong.

    Anyway, fatigue and off days is something everyone has to deal with. It doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong, but like the others have suggested, I'd start by thinking about your nutrition and whether you're fueling yourself appropriately, especially in the critical half hour after completing a ride. Other things to think about are how your weekly training schedule manages hard vs. easier days and then basic life stuff like work and family obligations, how much sleep you're getting etc.

    Good luck,
    -Dave

  8. daveryanwyoming said:

    Other things to think about are how your weekly training schedule manages hard vs. easier days and then basic life stuff like work and family obligations, how much sleep you're getting etc.

    Good luck,
    -Dave

    Well that says alot...as I find that I am much better on my afternoon rides than my morning rides...especially after my afternoon nap 😄 ...I can not stand to eat first thing when I get up but on my morning rides I force myself to eat at least a bagel and then take a nanner and a bar with me for the ride...in the evenings its usually an hour or so after dinner and as I was hungry the food tends to "sit" better in the evenings than it does in the mornings...maybe thats why evening rides are more enjoyable for me...

    I'm definately not training for any races...just personal fitness and the constant drive to show those boys they are not just going to run off and leave me...hills are still my kryptonite but I went out yesterday and rolled right over them...still huffing a little on the tops but kept pushing over the top and trying to get back to cruising speed ASAP...that has seem to be a huge help on my recovery time after bigger hills...on the morning rides I struggle all the way around...

    Hills are wierd for me...its not that I don't have the power in my legs...its the fact that I can not breathe about half way up...I'm an ex-smoker (June 4th was 1 year) so I'm assuming that has something to do with it...just going to take time to get them healed...and the fact that if I push just a little harder than I should my whole head turns red and I am gasping for air at the top...

    I have been some what tracking my diet/cycling and that is why I posted this...it seems that if I take 3 to 4 days off after a hard ride then on my next ride I feel supercharged when I get back on...any sooner and I have spaghetti legs for the first 10 miles or so...then they start to come around but nothing like if I take more time off the bike...

  9. tiggere said:

    Hills are wierd for me...its not that I don't have the power in my legs...its the fact that I can not breathe about half way up...I'm an ex-smoker (June 4th was 1 year) so I'm assuming that has something to do with it...just going to take time to get them healed...and the fact that if I push just a little harder than I should my whole head turns red and I am gasping for air at the top...


    It's funny that you should say that, cause I'd been diagnosed with possible case of bad asthma (it could be something else - but we'll find out in about 6 weeks) that's just been slowly laying waste to my lungs the past few years. After being half-way handy on the bike back in the 90's getting back and struggling somewhat for the past few years to get back to where I was at has been frustrating and much of that comes with riding in the hills.

    Talk to your doc about getting something to help. When you tell him/her that you've stopped smoking and are making a good effort to get fit you may find it amazing how much they actually want to help. I've been on a mix of Albuterol and Advair for the past 6 days and I've been coughing so much [censored] up it's unreal and I feel way way better for it. The difference is night and day from the stuff I've been going through the past 3 months - certainly a pleasant change from echocardiograms, EKG stress tests and checking for blood clots I tell ya.

    As for the hills, pacing is key. If you're out of breath half way up then you're going too hard too early. It may not seem like you're going too hard - and that's the hard part - realising and dealing with the limitations you're faced with. It may be that you just need to slow the pace by a few rpm...

    Good luck and congrats on making it a year.

    I've never smoked but my wife quit about 18 months ago after being diagnosed borderline COPD. She's been using Advair to good effect too.

  10. Interesting thread this is. 😎 Somehow awkward how different people cope with or better have to cope with recovery. For me it's just the classic pattern of 3 consecutive days of cycling starting intense and short and on the 3rd day being longish and significant less intense. I always refuel properly within the first 30 min and having layed out all this I can say that after the following rest days I alway feel good 😉 and halfway fresh so I can take on board the next 3 day pattern with slight increase in intensity or duration. What jeopardizes this pattern is usually only lack of sleep :eek: as it's just so hard to get a management job, wife, kids and all this packed into one day without too much of compromizing any of these priorities; and so at the end of the days there's often too little stime to sleep left.🙁

    Keep it up
    bigwillie

  11. frenchyge said:

    Just to clarify: Frank Overton (author of the linked article) is generally credited with having identified the concept of a sweet-spot in the intensity spectrum which allows for the greatest total training stimulus. The others have discussed and expanded upon his ideas at length.

    Frank is the one who named it the "sweet spot", but I'm the one responsible for the hypothesis as it is encapsulated in the diagram.

  12. Well I have tried a new technique and it seems to be working well for me...it hurts...but works...I assume it hurts as I am using the muscles in ways that I previously was not...

    I maintain the chainring I am in as I start the climb along with maintaining my cadence...as it starts to get pretty hard I drop down two cogs and and keep my same cadence...as it gets harder again I drop one cog and slow my cadence until its comfortable...then drop one cog again if its a longer climb and maintain a nice even slow cadence to the top...It worked very nice on my 30 mile ride Friday but I sure felt it afterwards...I also started trying to pull up on the backpedal so was pretty sore in the backs of my quads as well as the front...

    As for breathing I just tried focus on a constant rhythm...without going overboard and reaching the huffing/gasping for air...my speeds up the hills went from my usual 7.4 mph to a whopping 10.9 mph...and the recovery time over the top didn't seem to take as long as I guess I was moving that little bit faster so it was easier to get back up to speed...all in all a good ride...

    Now Mr. Coggan...seeing as how its your hypothesis...and my legs seem to work alot better after a couple days off...should I go ahead and take a couple days off the bike to let my muscles rebuild and get the majority of the soreness out before I go ride again...people in the "gym" working out hard usually say not to work the same areas twice in a row as to let the muscles rebuild...is it the same in the cycling world or do I need to suck it up and ride through the pain...I do stretch and have a recovery drink afterwards...but the next day its pretty sore...

  13. Sorry Andy. :o

    tiggere said:

    Well I have tried a new technique.... <snip>

    ...my speeds up the hills went from my usual 7.4 mph to a whopping 10.9 mph...and the recovery time over the top didn't seem to take as long as I guess I was moving that little bit faster so it was easier to get back up to speed...


    A 47% increase in power! Do you offer a money-back guarantee? 😄

  14. frenchyge said:

    Sorry Andy. :o

    A 47% increase in power! Do you offer a money-back guarantee? 😄


    No but I will give you the guarantee that your legs will hurt afterwards and the next day...:eek:

  15. tiggere said:

    No but I will give you the guarantee that your legs will hurt afterwards and the next day...:eek:


    How steep are these hills?

  16. swampy1970 said:

    How steep are these hills?


    Not real steep...maybe 4% to 6%...anywhere from 100 yards to 1/4 mile long...but they are just one right freaking after another...every now and then we get a little flat ground on the way to the next set...I know...I'm a wuss...hills suck...😄

  17. tiggere said:

    Not real steep...maybe 4% to 6%...anywhere from 100 yards to 1/4 mile long...but they are just one right freaking after another...every now and then we get a little flat ground on the way to the next set...I know...I'm a wuss...hills suck...😄


    Work on the theory that the harder you push and the faster you push, the less time you spend pushing the pedals while going up hills. You don't have to go faster between the uphill bits though... that part isn't manditory 😉

  18. frenchyge said:


    A 47% increase in power! Do you offer a money-back guarantee? 😄


    Actually I like to think of it as a 43% increase in efficiency...not as a power gain...I was basically blowing up trying to spin to the tops of the rollers where as now I am pushing over the rollers...

    swampy1970 said:

    Work on the theory that the harder you push and the faster you push, the less time you spend pushing the pedals while going up hills. You don't have to go faster between the uphill bits though... that part isn't manditory 😉


    Thats basically what I am doing now...just using my power instead of trying to conserve it for the flatter areas...I have noticed that I have a sore lower back afterwards along with the legs...which tells me that I need to do some core work...also after long rides my shoulders and neck are sore from putting to much of my weight on my hands as my core wears down on the ride...

  19. tiggere said:


    Thats basically what I am doing now...just using my power instead of trying to conserve it for the flatter areas...I have noticed that I have a sore lower back afterwards along with the legs...which tells me that I need to do some core work...also after long rides my shoulders and neck are sore from putting to much of my weight on my hands as my core wears down on the ride...


    No, the sore back probably means that you're using muscles in a way that you're not used to. Adding 3 mph up a hill will do that and I'd expect nothing less.

    I don't know how your climbing style is but if you're powering up these little hills in the saddle you might want to consider standing on the steeper sections to 'spread the love' across different muscle groups.

    The sore "everything else" means that everything else is also being used a little more than you're used to doing too. The last thing that your body needs is one thrashing from the bike and then a different thrashing doing 'core' exercises. People tend to get sore as bending over and making your legs go around in circles for hours in not entirely a natural thing to do.

    Your position may not be optimal but that's something you'll have to figure out unless you start posting videos/pics.

    If you're not the most flexible chap in the world then a few choice stretches may be in order.

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