pastry cooking help

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for the first time ever. I used
2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter during
the folding and rolling out stages.

Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I filled them with finely
chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black pepper
(I'm vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the top of the pasties to
release the steam during cooking, and brushed the tops with milk for good measure.

I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20 minutes I turned them round (the
pastry was a nice darkish brown) and turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to cook
without burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around at the contents of
one and found that the filling was basically cooked. I checked the underside of the pasties but
discovered that the pastry was still pale.

The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without burning them, so I decided to flip
the pasties to give the pastry on the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all over,
and even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been the most moist. It took a
further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry this pastry out, and lightly brown it.

Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The pastry needs to be cooked
quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable for picking up and eating with your hands as the weight
of the filling will just drop through the pastry.

So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom is cooked properly without
having to flip the pasties?

I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About twice as much pepper (it should
really warm your tounge) and possibly a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And the
buttery taste of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it with trex or
some other vegetable fat next time.

Any tips appreciated! Gemma.

It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe. First, I say that there is
nothing particularly good about using margarine for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water
and the soft margarines can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients. If
you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or hydrogenated vegetable fat
(Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.

I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the bottom shelf. This gives
good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom. Browning of the pastry depends on a number of
factors including the pH of the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use
an egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if you use it on the bottom.

One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or pizza stone. You can pre-
heat the stone and place the pastries directly on the hot stone or put them on parchment and then
place them on the stone.

You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is properly calibrated.

In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of alternative pastries for
empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying to make.) I think I would start with a basic pie
pastry and after mastering that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat
flour or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy.
Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool off then make as before
except use all butter or any veg oil instead of marj
. cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done try with mushrooms. eggplant cubed
celeriac chile peppers peas cheese merry xmas ttfn andy

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for the first time ever. I used
2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter
during the folding and rolling out stages.

Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I filled them with finely
chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black
pepper (I'm vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the top of the
pasties to release the steam during cooking, and brushed the tops with milk for good measure.

I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20 minutes I turned them round
(the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to
cook without burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around at the
contents of one and found that the filling was basically cooked. I checked the underside of the
pasties but discovered that the pastry was still pale.

The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without burning them, so I decided to
flip the pasties to give the pastry on the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all
over, and even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been the most moist.
It took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry this pastry out, and lightly brown it.

Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The pastry needs to be cooked
quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable for picking up and eating with your hands as the
weight of the filling will just drop through the pastry.

So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom is cooked properly without
having to flip the pasties?

I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About twice as much pepper (it
should really warm your tounge) and possibly a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And
the buttery taste of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it with trex
or some other vegetable fat next time.

Any tips appreciated! Gemma.

It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe. First, I say that there is
nothing particularly good about using margarine for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water
and the soft margarines can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.

If

Quoted message said:

you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or hydrogenated vegetable fat
(Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.

I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the bottom shelf. This
gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom. Browning of the pastry depends on a
number of factors including the pH of the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase
browning you can use

an

Quoted message said:

egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if you use it on the bottom.

One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or pizza stone. You can
pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly

on

Quoted message said:

the hot stone or put them on parchment and then place them on the stone.

You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is properly calibrated.

In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of alternative pastries for
empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying

to

Quoted message said:

make.) I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after mastering that modify it with by
substituting some of the flour with whole wheat

flour

Quoted message said:

or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy. Let
me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for the first time ever. I used
2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter during
the folding and rolling out stages.

Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I filled them with finely
chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black pepper
(I'm vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the top of the pasties to
release the steam during cooking, and brushed the tops with milk for good measure.

I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20 minutes I turned them round
(the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to
cook without burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around at the contents
of one and found that the filling was basically cooked. I checked the underside of the pasties
but discovered that the pastry was still pale.

The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without burning them, so I decided to
flip the pasties to give the pastry on the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all
over, and even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been the most moist. It
took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry this pastry out, and lightly brown it.

Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The pastry needs to be cooked
quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable for picking up and eating with your hands as the
weight of the filling will just drop through the pastry.

So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom is cooked properly without
having to flip the pasties?

I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About twice as much pepper (it should
really warm your tounge) and possibly a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And the
buttery taste of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it with trex or
some other vegetable fat next time.

Any tips appreciated! Gemma.

It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe. First, I say that there is
nothing particularly good about using margarine for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water
and the soft margarines can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.
If you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or hydrogenated vegetable fat
(Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.

I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the bottom shelf. This
gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom. Browning of the pastry depends on a number
of factors including the pH of the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you
can use an egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if you use it on
the bottom.

One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or pizza stone. You can
pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly on the hot stone or put them on parchment and
then place them on the stone.

You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is properly calibrated.

In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of alternative pastries for
empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying to make.) I think I would start with a basic pie
pastry and after mastering that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat
flour or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy.
Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

Also the type, color, and thickness of the pan you cooked them on could have an effect. Those double
walled (insulated) cookie sheet are notorious for not browning the bottom of things. Also the darker
the color of the cookie sheet the faster it cooks. You also mention putting them in a hot
oven...perhaps too hot. I bake pasties at about 375F I think thats close to 150C-200C range, pre-
heated of course. Your best bet would be to read over 3 or 4 pastie recipes to check for best
cooking temp and ideas for the vegetarian pastry, here are 2 please excuse the meat.

Some curry powder might work well as a seasoning as well.

MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.04

Title: New Zealand Pasties Categories: Polkadot, Faylen, New zealand Yield: 1 Servings

MMMMM---------------------------ROUNDS-------------------------------- 8 oz Flour 2 oz Crisco 2 oz
Butter (or Marg) 1 pn Salt 2 tb To 3 tb water (approx)

MMMMM----------------------CORNISH PASTIES--------------------------- 4 oz Finely diced RAW potato
4 oz Ground beef 2 oz Chopped onion 2 oz Finely diced RAW carrots 1 oz Green peas (optional)

Sift the flour and salt. Rub in the Crisco and butter until a sandy texture is reached.
Make a hollow in the middle and add water. Handle as little and as lightly as possible.
Wrap in grease proof paper and refrigerate for 24 hours. Now it's ready to use for the
Cornish Pasties..

Roll out pastry to approx 1/8" thick, cut into 5" diameter rounds, I cut around a dessert
dish, moisten the filling with a little water and place a generous spoonful in the middle
of each round. Make sure it is in a pile not flattened out. Moisten the edges of the
pastry with beaten egg. Fold in half and flute the edges. Now stand them up so the fluting
is a cross the top, and push with your fingers to make the join into a wavey seam. Boy..
thats hard to try and explain without being able to show you...Mind you that part is only
for looks! Brush the outside of each pastie with beaten egg, and cook at 275 degrees for
3/4 hr to an hour. When cooked, pastry should be nicely browned.

Shared by Jo Sheckman

* The Polka Dot Palace BBS 1-201-822-3627. Posted by FAYLEN

MMMMM

CRUST:

4 c. flour 1 1/2 tsp. salt 1 tsp. baking powder 1 3/4 c. shortening 1 egg, beaten 1
tbsp. vinegar
1/2 c. water

FILLING:

6 med. potatoes 1 med. onion 1 lb. ground chuck 3 carrots 1 sm. rutabaga

Chop finely or dice all vegetables. Make crust by mixing dry ingredients. Add shortening to crumbly
mixture; add egg with water and vinegar. Mix gently. Roll out dough into 4 (8 inch) circles. Place
mixed filling ingredients on half of circle. Add salt and pepper to taste; dot with butter. Moisten
edge of pastry with water and fold over. Seal tightly with fork or by twist crinkling. [censored] top.
Bake on cookie sheet at 400 degrees for 15 minutes. Reduce temperature to 350 degrees and bake 45
minutes additional time. These freeze well.

Glenwood

--
And the beet goes on! (or under) -me just a while ago

Also cheese pineapple and potatoe with lots of chile.... serve with sour cream and chive sauce ....
merry xmas ttfn again andy

"chef" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7hGEb.768$TK2.29@newsfep3-
gui.server.ntli.net...

Quoted message said:

try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool off then make as before
except use all butter or any veg oil instead of

marj

Quoted message said:

. cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done try with mushrooms. eggplant cubed
celeriac chile peppers peas cheese merry xmas ttfn andy

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for the first time ever. I
used 2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the initial paste, and added a further 4oz of
butter during the folding and rolling out stages.

Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I filled them with finely
chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black
pepper (I'm vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the top of the
pasties to release the steam during cooking, and brushed the tops with milk for good measure.

I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20 minutes I turned them round
(the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and turned down the flame to give the contents a chance
to cook without burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around at the
contents of one and found that the filling was basically cooked. I checked the underside of
the pasties but discovered that the pastry was still pale.

The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without burning them, so I decided
to flip the pasties to give the pastry on the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and
soft all over, and even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been the
most moist. It took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry this pastry out, and lightly
brown it.

Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The pastry needs to be cooked
quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable for picking up and eating with your hands as the
weight of the filling will just drop through the pastry.

So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom is cooked properly
without having to flip the pasties?

I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About twice as much pepper (it
should really warm your tounge) and possibly a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple.
And the buttery taste of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it
with trex or some other vegetable fat next time.

Any tips appreciated! Gemma.

It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe. First, I say that there is
nothing particularly good about using

margarine

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water and the soft

margarines

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.

If

Quoted message said:

you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or hydrogenated vegetable fat
(Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.

I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the bottom shelf. This
gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the

bottom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors including the pH

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use

an

Quoted message said:

egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use it on the bottom.

One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pizza stone. You can pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly

on

Quoted message said:

the hot stone or put them on parchment and then place them on the stone.

You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is properly calibrated.

In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of alternative pastries for
empanadas (which I assume is what you are

trying

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

make.) I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after

mastering

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat

flour

Quoted message said:

or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy. Let
me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe.

The recipe for the pastry, or the pasty? I can copy the pastry recipe out if it would help. I didn't
follow a recipe for the pasty, I just did what I said in my original post.

Quoted message said:

First, I say that there is nothing particularly good about using margarine for baking. Margarine
can be upwards of 50% water and the soft margarines can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and
other undesirable ingredients.

Point taken, I just checked and the margarine is only about 60% fat, I thought it was closer to 80%.
I'll get some Trex or Cookeen which are both 100% hydrogenated vegetable fats (British brands).

Quoted message said:

I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the bottom shelf. This gives
good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom.

Yup, I was using the bottom shelf.

Quoted message said:

Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors including the pH of the dough and the
proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use an egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will
glue the pastry to the pan if you use it on the bottom.

Browning of the top was fine. The pastry on the top cooked wonderfully, which leads me to suspect it
was my cooking technique which was at fault (i.e. the temperature or type of tray of something) more
than the pastry itself.

Quoted message said:

One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or pizza stone. You can
pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly on the hot stone or put them on parchment and
then place them on the stone.

I will have to pop into my local cookery shop and see if they have one (no doubt they'll charge an
arm and a leg for it though). This sounds like it would be an excellent way of concentrating the
heat on the bottom of the pasty.

Quoted message said:

You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is properly calibrated.

It's not, it's the worst oven in creation. (I rent so there's no changing it). I manage to make
things like cakes and biscuits in it, just by judging the flame.

Quoted message said:

In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of alternative pastries for
empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying to make.)

I did a google image search on empenadas, and they do look like the same thing.

Quoted message said:

I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after mastering that modify it with by
substituting some of the flour with whole wheat flour or adding some grated cheese. If you have a
food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy. Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I prefer a flakey pastry for pasties.

Thanks for your help! Gemma.

"chef" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool off then make as before
except use all butter or any veg oil instead of marj
. cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done try with mushrooms. eggplant cubed
celeriac chile peppers peas cheese merry xmas ttfn andy

You can't beat a potato, swede and onion filling, you just can't!

Gemma.

hahabogus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Also the type, color, and thickness of the pan you cooked them on could have an effect. Those
double walled (insulated) cookie sheet are notorious for not browning the bottom of things. Also
the darker the color of the cookie sheet the faster it cooks.

I was using a very cheap, thin baking sheet. No insulation, or double lining (but equally nothing
much to store/concentrate the heat like a pizza stone would). It's painted red on the bottom, and I
believe was originally non-stick (which has probably worn off) but has built up a 'patina' of baked
on grease (black) for natuaral non-stickiness so I can't tell. I can't believe I just described that
to a newsgroup of cooking fans/experts, the shame!

Quoted message said:

You also mention putting them in a hot oven...perhaps too hot. I bake pasties at about 375F I
think thats close to 150C-200C range, pre-heated of course.

Ah, that's 190C. And cooler than my oven was, I bet. That's closer to the sort of temperature I'd
bake a Victoria sponge. I was under the (seemingly wrong) impression that pastry needed a hot oven
rather than a moderate one.

Quoted message said:

Your best bet would be to read over 3 or 4 pastie recipes to check for best cooking temp and ideas
for the vegetarian pastry, here are 2 please excuse the meat.

Thanks, those are the sort of thing I'm going for. The second one used a very cool oven. I shall
adjust my thinking on this, then.

Quoted message said:

Some curry powder might work well as a seasoning as well.

I think I might just sprinkle a little chilli powder in, for the heat. The pepper wasn't enough to
warm my tongue (I'll add more next time, obviously).

Thanks for your help! Gemma.

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I prefer a flakey pastry for
pasties.

My pie pastry is flaky! When you say "flaky pastry" do you mean a laminated dough like puff pastry?

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Gemme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Vox Humana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I prefer a flaky pastry for
pasties.

My pie pastry is flaky! When you say "flaky pastry" do you mean a laminated dough like
puff pastry?

Is it? Sorry, I didn't mean to slight it. 😉

Yes, I made a laminated dough. Here's the recipe I followed:

Flaky pastry (Used for sausage rolls, patties, etc.) 8oz flour .5 tsp salt 6oz lard or 5oz vegetable
fat [as I said, I used 2oz slightly watery marg, and 4oz butter] cold water for mixing

Put the flour and salt in a basin and rub in one-third of the fat until it has the appearance of
fine breadcrumbs. Mix to a stiff dough with a little cold water, using a knife for mixing. Roll out
on a floured board into an oblong piece. Cut half of the remainder of the fat into small pieces and
scatter them over two-thirds of the paste. Flour well and fold the paste in three, sealing the edges
neatly with the rolling pin. Leave for 10 minutes. Turn the paste round so that the sides become the
ends and roll out again, then add the rest of the fat in the same way as before. Flour, fold in
three, turn and roll out again. Leave for 10 minutes. Fold in three once more and, if possible, put
away in a cool place in a covered basin for an hour or more. [Mine went in the fridge wrapped in
cling film (saran-wrap) overnight] Roll out before using and bake in a hot oven.

Gemma.