Why doesn't brining dehydrate turkey?

"Wayne Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are dehydrated. Put salt on a
bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works because nature wants to make the salt concentration
the same on both sides of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is saltier
than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way

around.

Quoted message said:

The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the

turkey

Quoted message said:

more hydrated and saltier?

Turkey and other meat is mostly protein. Salt acts on the protein molecules to change their shape so
that more water molecules can be trapped within and between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis
which as you pointed out would tend to remove water from the meat.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

In rec.food.cooking said:

When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are dehydrated. Put salt on a
bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works because nature wants to make the salt concentration
the same on both sides of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is saltier
than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way around. The salt doesn't pass
through the membrane, just the water.

Quoted message said:

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey more hydrated and
saltier?

You know the answer already. The cell interior is at a higher concentration than the brine.

And your confusion WRT "saltier" is appropriate, given that this is an old wive's tale, or a result
of a failure to rinse the exterior after brining. But you knew that too, given the last sentence of
your first paragraph.

--
...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

In rec.food.cooking said:

Salt acts on the protein molecules to change their shape so that more water molecules can be
trapped within and between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis which as you pointed out would tend
to remove water from the meat.

I've never heard that. Do you have a cite to more infomation?

--
...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

- The Who

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking said:

When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are dehydrated. Put salt on
a bloodsucker and it falls off. Osmosis works because nature wants to make the salt
concentration the same on both

sides

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the membrane. If the solution outside the turkey cell walls is

saltier

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than inside, water should come out of the turkey , not the other way

around.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The salt doesn't pass through the membrane, just the water.

Quoted message said:

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the

turkey

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more hydrated and saltier?

You know the answer already. The cell interior is at a higher concentration than the brine.

And your confusion WRT "saltier" is appropriate, given that this is an old wive's tale, or a
result of a failure to rinse the exterior after brining. But you knew that too, given the last
sentence of your first paragraph.

--

If that were true then soaking in pure water would work better than soaking in brine. See my other
post on this topic.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In rec.food.cooking said:

Salt acts on the protein molecules to change their shape so that more water molecules can be
trapped within

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

between the proteins. It's not pure osmosis which as you pointed out

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tend to remove water from the meat.

I've never heard that. Do you have a cite to more infomation?

It is described in detail in "The Best Recipe" cookbook and probably also on the Cooks
Illustrated web site.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

Wayne Jones said:

When I make pickles and soak the cukes or vegetables in brine, they are dehydrated. Put salt on a
bloodsucker and it falls off.

I'd invest in a bathtub, if I were you.

:-)

-sw

Wayne Jones said:

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey more hydrated and
saltier?

I asked this same question for years. If you read all the so called experts (including the dolts at
Cooking Illustrated), they all repeat the same old misinformation about how the meat absorbs the
brine by osmosis, exactly contradicting the basic mechanism of osmosis, as you point out. But, do
not dispair. I finally found someone who explains exactly what is happening, which is; some water
is, in fact, extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not lost during the
cooking process so the meat seams moister than non brined.

cbbqa.comSaltBrining.htmlOpen ↗

nb

notbob said:

Wayne Jones said:

Can anyone explain to me why brining is supposed to actually make the turkey more hydrated and
saltier?

I asked this same question for years. If you read all the so called experts (including the dolts
at Cooking Illustrated), they all repeat the same old misinformation about how the meat absorbs
the brine by osmosis, exactly contradicting the basic mechanism of osmosis, as you point out. But,
do not dispair. I finally found someone who explains exactly what is happening, which is; some
water is, in fact, extracted, but the remaining water is bonded to protiens and is not lost during
the cooking process so the meat seams moister than non brined.

Sorry. That's not what the article says. The net effect is that water is taken up, so a brined
bird weighs more coming out of the brine than when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact,
lost in cooking.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

cbbqa.comSaltBrining.htmlOpen ↗

nb

Bob Pastorio said:

notbob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact, extracted, but the remaining water
is bonded to protiens and is not lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than
non brined.

Sorry. That's not what the article says.

Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect to osmosis.

[...]

"Again -- this is critically important to an understanding of brining -- if the percentage
concentration of sodium on the outside of a cell is higher than the concentration of sodium on the
inside of a cell, then free water molecules will pass from inside the cell, through the cell
membrane, and into the intracellular space."

[...]

"This cross linking of protein and water molecules means the cells will not break up and lose their
moisture at the normal temperature of unbrined meat -- ..."

[...]

"As a further result of this increase in temperature, the meat will cook but still retain the
moisture that would normally have been lost."

Quoted message said:

The net effect is that water is taken up, so a brined bird weighs more coming out of the brine
than when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact, lost in cooking.

This water is absorbed by diffusion into the intercellular spaces. It is not osmosis.

"Therefore, the water added by brining will not remain during cooking to make the meat moister."

This is because we are not eating intercellular spaces, we are eating muscle cells.

nb

notbob said:

Bob Pastorio said:

notbob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

exactly what is happening, which is; some water is, in fact, extracted, but the remaining water
is bonded to protiens and is not lost during the cooking process so the meat seams moister than
non brined.

Sorry. That's not what the article says.

Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect to osmosis.

You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what remains stays in the meat (is
not lost) through cooking. That sounds like you mean that there's a net loss of water from brining.
If you meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.

There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for the effects of brining. Alton
Brown has a different explanation as does Shirley Corriher. They assert that it isn't just the water
that crosses the cell membranes; that solutes migrate as well. Not just to intercellular locations,
but into cells.

I can't post that stuff tonight, sorry. Getting up too early to stick around. Maybe tomorrow night
when I get back.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

[...]

"Again -- this is critically important to an understanding of brining -- if the percentage
concentration of sodium on the outside of a cell is higher than the concentration of sodium on the
inside of a cell, then free water molecules will pass from inside the cell, through the cell
membrane, and into the intracellular space."

[...]

"This cross linking of protein and water molecules means the cells will not break up and lose
their moisture at the normal temperature of unbrined meat -- ..."

[...]

"As a further result of this increase in temperature, the meat will cook but still retain the
moisture that would normally have been lost."

Quoted message said:

The net effect is that water is taken up, so a brined bird weighs more coming out of the brine
than when it went in. Most of that water is, in fact, lost in cooking.

This water is absorbed by diffusion into the intercellular spaces. It is not osmosis.

"Therefore, the water added by brining will not remain during cooking to make the meat moister."

This is because we are not eating intercellular spaces, we are eating muscle cells.

nb

Bob Pastorio said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect to osmosis.

You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what remains stays in the meat
(is not lost) through cooking. That sounds like you mean that there's a net loss of water from
brining. If you meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.

There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for the effects of brining.

It's the only one that makes sense. Osmosis states that on two sides of a membrane, the solution
will move from the lower concentration of solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher
concentration. Well, if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is going to move
across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the brine. The net effect would be some dehydration
of the meat (see subject line).

Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on the misconception that moisture (and
salt!) moves across the membrane into the cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.

For example:

"In other words when a piece of chicken, for example, is placed in a brine solution, osmosis will
begin as nature tries to equalize the salt/water content of the meat and the brine. It's as if the
salt acts as a key that "unlocks" the cells of the meat allowing the water to enter." -- Big Daddy

"Second, the liquid that gets loaded into the meat by osmosis makes the meat juicy." --Kip Glass -
Autumn Olive Farms

"Brining works via the processes of osmosis and the tendency for adjacent mediums to equalize their
level of salinity. In a nutshell, the turkey will absorb some of the salt water." --Mark Vogel

"Imagine that you have a salt solution and you immerse something like a turkey in it.
Immediately osmosis kicks in and the salt begins to migrate into the meat (the semi-permeable
membrane)." --Joan Ash

Oooooohh! ...wrong answer!

Let's check that osmosis thing one more time:

"The key to remember about osmosis is that water flows from the solution with the lower solute
concentration into the solution with higher solute concentration."

Now, if the meat to be brined was placed in just plain water ...bingo!... water should be absorbed
into the cells, as they have some salt content, right? Sure, it's minor, but it's higher that plain
water. And, if you have dehydrated cells (dry meat) and they are put in a solution of equal
concentration of solute, the water will move across the membrane to hydrate the dry cells. But,
we're putting the meat in a high salt brine. That's the catch! There is no way the higher
concentration salt brine is going to move across a cell membrane into a lower concentration cell.
The salt is not going to cross that membrane at all, no matter what the concentration.

Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've found. It's the only one that
isn't trying to convince me high salt brine is moving across a membrane into a lower
concentration cell, as I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some problems
with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to dispute it. If you can offer a better
explanation, I'm all ears.

nb

"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:JSnCb.521052$Fm2.503253@attbi_s04...

Quoted message said:

Bob Pastorio said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, it is. The OP was about osmosis. I was replying with respect to osmosis.

You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what remains stays in the meat
(is not lost) through cooking. That sounds like you mean that there's a net loss of water from
brining. If you meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.

There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for the effects of brining.

It's the only one that makes sense. Osmosis states that on two sides of a membrane, the solution
will move from the lower concentration of solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher
concentration. Well, if you have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is going to
move across the membrane, out of the cell, to dilute the brine. The net effect would be some
dehydration of the meat (see subject line).

Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on the misconception that moisture
(and salt!) moves across the membrane into

the

Quoted message said:

cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.

For example:

"In other words when a piece of chicken, for example, is placed in a brine solution, osmosis will
begin as nature tries to equalize the salt/water content of the meat and the brine. It's as if the
salt acts as a key that "unlocks" the cells of the meat allowing the water to enter." -- Big Daddy

"Second, the liquid that gets loaded into the meat by osmosis makes the meat juicy." --Kip Glass -
Autumn Olive Farms

"Brining works via the processes of osmosis and the tendency for adjacent mediums to equalize
their level of salinity. In a nutshell, the turkey will absorb some of the salt water." --
Mark Vogel

"Imagine that you have a salt solution and you immerse something like a turkey in it. Immediately
osmosis kicks in and the salt begins to migrate into the meat (the semi-permeable membrane)." --
Joan Ash

Oooooohh! ...wrong answer!

Let's check that osmosis thing one more time:

"The key to remember about osmosis is that water flows from the solution with the lower solute
concentration into the solution with higher solute concentration."

Now, if the meat to be brined was placed in just plain water ...bingo!... water should be absorbed
into the cells, as they have some salt content, right? Sure, it's minor, but it's higher that
plain water. And, if you have dehydrated cells (dry meat) and they are put in a solution of equal
concentration of solute, the water will move across the membrane to hydrate the dry cells. But,
we're putting the meat in a high salt brine. That's the catch! There is no way the higher
concentration salt brine is going to move across a cell membrane into a lower concentration cell.
The salt is not going to cross that membrane at all, no matter what the concentration.

Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've found. It's the only one that
isn't trying to convince me high salt brine is moving across a membrane into a lower concentration
cell, as I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some problems with it myself,
but am not, at this time, in a position to dispute it. If you can offer a better explanation, I'm
all ears.

nb

Your explanation assues that salt will not move across the cell membrane. This is not true. In
living cells the membrane has a low permeability to salt. Sodium chloride concentration is a lot
higher outside the cell than inside, so salt slowly leaks into the cell. Living cells have pumps
that shove it back out to maintain equilibirium. In dead tissue - i.e., meat - the pumps are no
longer operating but the membrane still has some permeability to salt. This means that salt from the
brining liquid *will* move into cells as long as the brining liquid has a higher salt concentration
than the intracellular fluid. Likewise if you soak the meat in plain water salt will leak out of the
cells (and water in). Now I cannot tell you how much this contributes to the effects of brining -
perhaps it is minor compared with the changes in protein structure that are known to be involved -
but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is dead wrong.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

notbob said:

Bob Pastorio said:

You're saying that water is lost (extracted) in the brining, but what remains stays in the meat
(is not lost) through cooking. That sounds like you mean that there's a net loss of water from
brining. If you meant something else, I'm sorry, I didn't understand it.

There are other explanations than the one on that page to account for the effects of brining.

It's the only one that makes sense.

There are a few unquestioned assumptions in the explanation. Like that it's only osmosis that's at
work and no other conditions obtain. That cell walls are perfect semi-permeable membranes. The dead
animal cells behave the same way as live ones. That diffusion isn't also in there somewhere serving
to permit/force solutes into the cells. That the salt solution doesn't change the nature of the now-
dead cell walls so as to permit inflow of solution. Summary: that salinity is the only index and
that osmosis is the only mechanism.

Quoted message said:

Osmosis states that on two sides of a membrane, the solution will move from the lower
concentration of solutes to the higher side to dilute the higher concentration. Well, if you
have a high salt content brine, the liquid in the cells is going to move across the membrane,
out of the cell, to dilute the brine. The net effect would be some dehydration of the meat (see
subject line).

Typically, the most common explanation for brining is based on the misconception that moisture
(and salt!) moves across the membrane into the cell. Sorry. Osmosis does not work that way.

Osmosis in it's purest form doesn't work that way. The explanation assumes laboratory circumstances.
And it assumes that only the one process is at work.

The real-world reality is that the flavor of the meat is also changed in the process of brining.
I've experimented with brines that contain dissolved solids, traces of oils added (citrus oils,
essential oils of herbs, emulsified oils), salt-free (based on sugars), colored solutes (food
coloring) and a few other variations that included more than one major variable. In every case, the
brines were taken up and significantly affected the properties of final result (the oils a bit less
so, but still there).

If only water can cross the cell wall, then all that flavor change has to be accounted for by
interstitial/intercellular water. But according to the osmosis theory as elaborated, that water is
lost in cooking. It might be conjectured that whatever is left behind in the purge that occurs in
cooking is the only real flavor alteration, but that demands to ask about degree of brining and the
different results from duration of brine and concentration.

The other real-world fact is that meats can be overbrined. If left too long, even in a weak
brine, the meat will be salty. If left too long in a sugar-containing brine, the meat will taste
and bite like cured ham. If brined in an acid brine, the texture meat will be significantly
changed. That can't merely be attributed to intercellular storage of the brining solution. The
way the meats will cook, cut and chew is noticeably different. That has to be the composition of
the cells being changed.

Long-brined foods like cured pork and beef products undergo profound physical changes in the process
of curing. No one will confuse corned beef with fresh beef, either in taste, texture or appearance.
Or cured ham with fresh pork.

If living cells were impermeable to solutes, they'd contain water and nothing else. They don't, as
they regulate what can and cannot come in. Dead cells have no regulatory mechanisms beyond the
properties of the cell wall to limit inflow or outflow of solutes.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, like I said, the explanation I put forth is the best I've found. It's the only one that
isn't trying to convince me high salt brine is moving across a membrane into a lower
concentration cell, as I know this not how osmosis works. Frankly, I still have some problems
with it myself, but am not, at this time, in a position to dispute it. If you can offer a better
explanation, I'm all ears.

I think the explanations are too simplistic; too laboratory-constrained. They don't account for many
of the alterations that actually happen in the meat. Attributing the entire process only to osmosis
makes for a nice, easy answer to the question, but it glosses over some of the effects that people
see. And taste. And chew.

Pastorio

Peter Aitken said:

involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is dead wrong.

References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your claim. Also, let's try a
little trimming, please. Thank you.

nb

"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is

dead

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrong.

References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your

claim.

Quoted message said:

Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.

nb

"Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby Press, 1988. This is the
book I used as a text when teaching physiology to students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any
general physiology or neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for over 20
years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with using the web as a source for
scientific and technical information - there's so much garbage out there.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken said:

"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes is

dead

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrong.

References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to your

claim.

Quoted message said:

Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.

nb

"Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby Press, 1988. This is the
book I used as a text when teaching physiology to students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any
general physiology or neurophysiology book. Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for over
20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with using the web as a source
for scientific and technical information - there's so much garbage out there.

--
Peter Aitken

The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move across the cell membrane from a
higher to a lower concentration...

I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)

Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the membrane to hydrate the meat rather
than the water moving from the meat to dilute the brine, hence drying the meat out more? Especially
since NaCl is a larger molecule than H2O? (unless my chemistry is off, which is possible... <G>😉

I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist, I'd like to understand why... <G>

(kinda like that stoopid coulter video that I have to memorize on flow cytometry before January 19th
when I fly to Miama for that seminar... :-P)

K.

--

Quoted message said:

^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< [email hidden] >^,,^<

"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are all owned by
cats" -- Asimov

Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry cgi3.ebay.comawOpen ↗
cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=katra

"Katra" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Aitken said:

"notbob" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MVpCb.97537$_M.510603@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

On 2003-12-12, Peter Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote:

> involved - but your claim that salt does not move across membranes

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dead

Quoted message said:

> wrong.

References, please. Everything I've read on the net is counter to

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claim.

Quoted message said:

Also, let's try a little trimming, please. Thank you.

nb

"Physiology" by Robert M. Byrne and Matthew N. Levy, 2nd edition, Mosby Press, 1988. This is the
book I used as a text when teaching physiology

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

students at Duke Medical Center. Or look in any general physiology or neurophysiology book.
Also, I worked as a researcher in this field for

over

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

20 years - I *do* know what I am talking about. That's the problem with using the web as a
source for scientific and technical information -

there's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

so much garbage out there.

--
Peter Aitken

The process of Osmosis causes salt (and other solutes) to move across the cell membrane from a
higher to a lower concentration...

I do not currently have the time to read those texts. :-)

Nature prefers equilibrium, so why does water move across the membrane to hydrate the meat rather
than the water moving from the meat to dilute the brine, hence drying the meat out more?
Especially since NaCl is a larger molecule than H2O? (unless my chemistry is off, which is
possible... <G>😉

I understand that brining works, but being the eternal scientist, I'd like to understand
why... <G>

As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do with osmosis - rather the
salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat
is jucier. My post on osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can cross membranes, although
slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is left in the brine long enough would be an
equilibrium between the brining fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you brine
too long the meat ends up too salty.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:03:31 -0600, Katra <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

(kinda like that stoopid coulter video that I have to memorize on flow cytometry before January
19th when I fly to Miama for that seminar... :-P)

K.

ann coulter is branching out?

your pal, karl

Peter Aitken said:

As I understand it the effects of brining have nothing (or little) to do with osmosis - rather the
salt changes the structure of proteins in the meat so they bind/hold more water and hence the meat
is jucier. My post on osmosis was in response to someone's mistaken idea that salt does not cross
membranes in muscle tissue. But in any case, since both salt and water can cross membranes,
although slowly, the end result of osmosis if the meat is left in the brine long enough would be
an equilibrium between the brining fluid and the intracellular fluid. Perhaps this is why if you
brine too long the meat ends up too salty.

"As I understand it...". "Perhaps...".

Thank you for not clearing that up.

nb