reading the race

thekgb said:

Needless to say, bell lap comes, its gettin' crazy but i'm comfortable, sitting 5th wheel or so, right near this guy. last corner comes im ready for the sprint and i take it wide with him. He blows up, I end up having to sprint around the guy into the wind, while a crazy move goes up the inside with guys who looked weak all race. they get the podium, i get 11th. No bigee since it's the first race, etc but i have a knack for finishing 11th-15th whether it's P123 or straight cat 3 races. Frustrating as hell cuz' i'm usually strong enough to be there for the end, but like today, i have a weird way of always reading the race incorrectly. So little means so much. For those who have the gift for seizing the right move on the sprint, how do you do it?

I'm not an overly consistent top-5 finisher but I think that given the way you have painted the situation, I don't see how anyone in your shoes would do anything besides what you did.

When you are racing solo you have to make a choice such as you did and it has to be the best educated guess you can make. You can't be everywhere at the decision point but you have to be somewhere. You thought that you had the chosen sprinter given that team's behavior and either he was and pooped-out at the final moment or he was a decoy.

In any case, I see it happen all the time. You picked the wrong group, that's all. In the field sprints I'm in, there's 10-20 guys going for it. Do you think that they are all going to win? The odds are better if there's only 3 going for it. That's why people who have that kind of power usually seek to reduce the size of the group: to improve the odds. There is some luck involved in placing high in a field sprint. It's a bit of lottery.

Given what you told me, I'm not sure that you could have known ahead of time that you made the wrong choice. It helps to have a reasonably consistent cast of characters every week like I have so in absence of that, you're flying a bit more blind. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it too much. You obviously have some instinct for it. Afterall, how else did you get enough points to upgrade to Cat 3?

I bet the two guys leading out the sprinter that pooped-out were pretty [censored].

There is some luck involved in placing high in a field sprint. It's a bit of lottery.

Isn't that the truth! I remember when i upgraded from cat 4 to cat 3 the amount of racing i had to endure just to get the shot to sprint for those points. it was even worse then b/c everyone in the cat 4 field just about feels they're capable of winning it all. cat 3 is similar in some ways but this being my 3rd year in this category i sense much less tension in the groups compared to cat 4.

i think there is a rhythm to racing as well, and "feeling" a sprint becomes just as much a part of knowing who's wheel to have, or where to be. i am however hoping to get my own entry on "the beauty of winning solo" thread, so stay tuned....

-Mike

Reading a race is like try to understand the opposite sex!😕
I would never say I'm a sprinter but I've won bunch sprints.

I have tried to follow the wheels of the sprinters but they usally blow me away with their acceleration and I loss 3 bike lengths at the start of a sprint. When I feel I have a chance I try to be 3 or 4 wheel on the last lap and start the sprint at 250m that way I'm speeding up when the sprinters go and their kick dosn't blow me away as I usally have good top end speed.

But like others have mentioned you have better odds if you are in a brake away and if the B/A dosn't work its good training.😉

If you are a sprinter and you get in the right position, and have enough gas left in the tank to execute a full sprint, and the other fastmen are in position it can really come down to who's the fastest, and who times it right. Often raw speed can make up for poor position - see Cavendish in the Schelderprijs a week or so ago.

if you're not a sprinter, you might just have to accept that a good position out of the last corner will only get you a top 10. The difference in speed between a specialist and a non sprinter can be as much as 10 km/h.....which explains why guys like me feel they're going backwards!

BullGod said:

... Often raw speed can make up for poor position - see Cavendish in the Schelderprijs a week or so ago....

Perhaps that's true at the higher levels of the sport with structured team lead outs and team mates that will assure their sprinters a clear shot at the line. But you've generally got to earn your chance to sprint in amateur races around here. If you don't come into the last kilo in with the top riders you'll very likely get stuck in the bunch with nowhere to go no matter how much raw speed you have.

-Dave

If you are a sprinter and you get in the right position

IME, to get there you can be a non-sprinter too...but it's the second part of that statement that intrigues me so much. Some people just seem to be able to find that "right" position alot. I have friends/fellow riders whom i can drill on training rides, but when it comes down to the final 200 M they always seem to nip me during race. in the race post-mortem i'll ask them what happened and they always seem to know X person was looking good, or that particular line looked best to go, or had an idea where to begin the sprint. I guess it takes time, but damn i've done alot of crits, and still have trouble.

-Mike aka "Mr thirteenth place"
PS: i have no fear of the "sprint" either...i've had enough success to know how to lay it down,bump elbows if necessary, once i get there

thekgb said:

If you are a sprinter and you get in the right position

IME, to get there you can be a non-sprinter too...but it's the second part of that statement that intrigues me so much. Some people just seem to be able to find that "right" position alot. I have friends/fellow riders whom i can drill on training rides, but when it comes down to the final 200 M they always seem to nip me during race. in the race post-mortem i'll ask them what happened and they always seem to know X person was looking good, or that particular line looked best to go, or had an idea where to begin the sprint. I guess it takes time, but damn i've done alot of crits, and still have trouble.

I'm a sprinter myself, and I'm not going to say I win every sprint I'm ever in, but I also rarely "get caught behind the wrong wheel." I think the key, is to do more than just try to pick a wheel to ride to the line with. Maybe it's because when I'm in a pack sprint, I'm going for the win, not top 3. When there's one lap left, I try my darndest to get into good, solid position. I think that's really key, just like everyone else, but I think the second part of the equation happens in the final 200-400 meters before the sprint even begins. You need to get yourself in a position with a lot of options. Sure, being on a strong sprinter's wheel is a good thing, but an even better thing is being behind that strong sprinter's wheel, but slightly off center from his wheel with a clear path in front of you. The reason for this is to give yourself a couple options. Number one, you're still in enough of his draft to work less than he does. Number two, you're blocking more of the field behind you, causing them to work harder to pass you. And Number three, you can either follow him, or shoot past him, depending on who's faster.

My mindset, going into the sprint, isn't "how can I utilize other's weaknesses to help me win," but rather, "I'm faster than everyone else here, so how do I make sure I get to use all my potential strength to win this race?" I think this way, you're also the one instigating stuff, not letting others do stuff, and you trying to react in time.

😄 😄 😄 hehe, I really really like the final sprint! 😄 😄 😄

daveryanwyoming said:

Perhaps that's true at the higher levels of the sport with structured team lead outs and team mates that will assure their sprinters a clear shot at the line. But you've generally got to earn your chance to sprint in amateur races around here. If you don't come into the last kilo in with the top riders you'll very likely get stuck in the bunch with nowhere to go no matter how much raw speed you have.

-Dave

at top level there is also an unnofficial "non sprinters keep out of the sprinters way" policy for the last 300m. The fast men get mighty peeved when skinny climber types are getting in the way up front.

Where I race it's usually smaller groups (echelons) coming to the finish together, with usually a sprint between 2/3, or a solo attack in the last few hundred metres. I haven't yet taken part in or seen a mass sprint. I would keep the F out of the way for sure as I lose to juniors in the sprint ;-)

Crits are different though, as prize money goes to place 30. But the speed is usually so high coming into the finish due to last lap solo attacks that the bunch is in single file, with faster guys passing slower guys in the finale.

That might be something for the OP - if you have any teammates or friends in the bunch get them to turn the speed up high in the last lap to string everyone out. If you are in 3rd - 8th place out of the last corner and get a good kick you've a great chance of a podium place.

The worst kind of bunch sprints are the lower level races where with 500m to go the guys at the front sit up, noone wants to lead it out, everybody is trying to get a good position, peloton spreads all over the road and the chances of getting blocked in are high.

BullGod said:

...The worst kind of bunch sprints are the lower level races where with 500m to go the guys at the front sit up, noone wants to lead it out, everybody is trying to get a good position, peloton spreads all over the road and the chances of getting blocked in are high.

Agreed! More and more I've started providing the sacrificial lead out when I approach the line in a larger group and everything slows. It may not be a sprinter's best strategy and I expect a few fast guys to get around me at the finish but I'm consistently placing well with this approach. I get a clear shot at the line, stay ahead of the carnage and my results are consistently better than when I try to get cagey and suck the right wheel in a big bunch just like everybody else is trying to do. If the last mile is fast and strung out then I'll play the sprinter's game but if things slow it can really pay to stick your nose out in the wind, maybe sacrifice the win but at least get a good placing and your chance to jump.

The advice to talk to your team mates and try to get a lead out is very good conventional advice but IME never works in the lower amateur categories. Sure they'll all talk about team work, blocking, not chasing down breaks, leadouts you name it. But many amateurs, especially in the lower categories are surprised to just approach the line with the field and if they have enough juice left to lead out a team mate they'll just as likely try for their own win. Sure everybody's gonna say "not me, I'm a team player" but over the years I've seen an awful lot of team mates exchanging harsh words after a race when plans changed mid race. If you want consistent results in the lower categories then you've got to get fit enough to make your own "luck" and be willing to go to the front as the finish line approaches.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

The advice to talk to your team mates and try to get a lead out is very good conventional advice but IME never works in the lower amateur categories.

On my old team when I was racing as a cat 4, there was always this movement to make these elaborate plans: who was going to do what and when, blah, blah, blah. Surprise! It never worked for a million different reasons, one of which is that a race is pretty much chaos on wheels.

More to the original point, when I've seen the finale of races degenerate because no one wants to take responsibility (fortunately it's rare in master's racing here), I've done a similar thing and go to the front and tow things around. But you know what though? Maybe I've got no jump and/or maybe I'm not pulling hard enough but the wheels sucks (or "sleds" as some people call them) will totally swarm me. It's not even a question of letting a few guys get by and getting tenth. If I do that with a field of 70, pretty much the world will pass me by. There are too many hungry sleds out there with better sprints than me. I have much better luck [font=Verdana]finessing[/font] my way to the line behind the right guy, perhaps because I've got decent (average) peak power but it fades fast.

in the lower categories then you've got to get fit enough to make your own "luck" and be willing to go to the front as the finish line approaches.

Agreed. Strategy, especially team strategy at lower levels is just not coordinated enough to work for the most part d/t a number of factors. Mainly different fitness levels, different agendas, and lack of consistency at races. At the pro level, there are clear delineations b/t worker bees, and the heads of state. And, they're all PRO's, so they know what needs to be done, and can practice as a team over the season. Although racing in the lower cats (3/4/5) is less challenging physically than the P123 races i've done, tactically it's exponentially more of a madhouse.

I like the other post-er's idea of being pro-active instead of reactive. Try to be the one who get's followed instead of trying to pick who to follow and miss the jump🙂

I'll try that at my next crit and we'll see how it goes.

-Mike

The worst kind of bunch sprints are the lower level races where with 500m to go the guys at the front sit up, noone wants to lead it out, everybody is trying to get a good position, peloton spreads all over the road and the chances of getting blocked in are high

I think this is why i found cyclocross so fascinating when i started racing it a few years ago. There was no "getting blocked in" to destroy a good finish after having a killer ride during the race. The novelty of sprinting first, and THEN letting fitness weed out the weak. It's hard, nay impossible, just to sit in during a cross race. And, if you got off the blocks poorly, or do get blocked on the starting sprint, you always have your "fitness" to at least keep making up spots and improving your placing. Inherently you have to suffer to do well, and each position at the finish line is hard earned if you want to get on the podium, or a top ten. that's a topic for another day, and cross has it's own subtleties from a sprinting standpoint, but I tend to be able to predictably do better as compared to the ups and downs of the RR scene.

-Mike

In my neck of the woods, the Cat. 3s and Masters races, for the most part, finish strung out. Especially the Masters. I haven't been close enough to the front yet to see who's doing the work, but somebody sure is!

To the original poster, I'd suggest trying a last lap all-or-nothing flyer. If they're that disorganized, it's possible they'll all look at each other and say, "you catch him!" Or better yet, the guys on the back will shout, "Hey, why don't you chase that guy!" That always cracks me up.

Animator said:

In my neck of the woods, the Cat. 3s and Masters races, for the most part, finish strung out. Especially the Masters. I haven't been close enough to the front yet to see who's doing the work, but somebody sure is!

To the original poster, I'd suggest trying a last lap all-or-nothing flyer. If they're that disorganized, it's possible they'll all look at each other and say, "you catch him!" Or better yet, the guys on the back will shout, "Hey, why don't you chase that guy!" That always cracks me up.

Sounds funny, the whole business of racing is interesting as I read a lot here on the forums as well as on the internet. Does this kind of drama senario of egging each other on really exist or are you just being funny. I would like to think the actions are louder than words and everyone is too caught up in their ride to verbally throw off one anothers game. Then again what do I know 🙄

This was metaphorical, in that nobody says it but they're thinking it:

Animator said:

it's possible they'll all look at each other and say, "you catch him!"

This actually happens:

Animator said:

the guys on the back will shout, "Hey, why don't you chase that guy!"

Here is how NOT to read the race ;-)

UCI 1.2 race, mainly continental teams from Bel, Lux, Netherlands and Germany.

Convince yourself that there is bound to be an early crash, hang out near the back, behind a Sparkasse rider, and assume that you won't get dropped if the speed goes up and everyone gets strung out in the gutter "cos the pro will close the gap". He didn't and 5 of us were off the back after 50km. Spending half an hour trying to draft the team cars at 65 km/h only to be caught by the broomwagon and kicked out the race was not fun. Bummer.

My point is, whether you're at the back or looking to ride off the front, it is folly to rely on others for lead outs, gap closing etc. Always be in a position where you can do something for yourself, not relying on others - especially if they are competitors (not teammates). Also, even watch out with teammates - I saw one of my colleagues heading towards the back on saturday and I let him in the line ahead of me, assuming he just wanted to relax. He immediately let a gap open up which I had to bust a gut to close. That sucked.

BullGod said:

My point is, whether you're at the back or looking to ride off the front, it is folly to rely on others for lead outs, gap closing etc. Always be in a position where you can do something for yourself, not relying on others - especially if they are competitors (not teammates).

Totally agree. Maybe it's just cause my teammates that race with me are all at pretty different levels so it feels like I'm alone out there, but none the less... You're the one who's pedaling your bike. If you're gonna have any type of a good finish, it's cause you made it happen. Ain't nobody gonna give you the win, or a good leadout (unless they're on your team) without you fighting for it. If you want something to happen, you gotta "grab the race by the handlebars" so to speak, and kick some ass!

hehe, boy I love bike racing!

Yes and when at the long distance races,when we are dropped from the 1st pack.First of all to do is to look back and see how many people had been dropped except you?If there's no people behind of you,then it's kinda funeral in the race.It is probably incredibly hard to chase the pack back after dropped alone. I tried once being dropped alone and it was really sucked.I didnt even finish the race.

And if there is,i would wait for them and regroup to make a chasing group.But the thing which is hard to predict is that the guys in the 2nd pack now has different speed pace compared to me.When they pull,i follow like hell.When they asked me to pull,my speed is simply doesn't satisfy them.So after a while,one of da guy sprint out from us.One veteran behind was shouting"comon dun worry let him go,we'll get him down soon".Then we just keep our constant pace and we got him back after about 10km.He came back to us and oppositely he was worn out and dropped from us.Before the race started i had thought alot of people will stay in front of me because most of em are good sprinter and much stronger compared to me(i am a climber).Finally there's more people than i imagined that had been dropped from the race.Alot of dilemma will happen in a race and it will be very suprise when things are totally out of expected.For me,the only and most important thing which keep me in the race is WILLPOWER. 😄

gemship said:

Sounds funny, the whole business of racing is interesting as I read a lot here on the forums as well as on the internet. Does this kind of drama senario of egging each other on really exist or are you just being funny. I would like to think the actions are louder than words and everyone is too caught up in their ride to verbally throw off one anothers game. Then again what do I know 🙄

Nah. I talk alot during races. Some of these guys I only see during races. So, you have to catch up with whats going on in their lives. Towards the end, I am usually the guys asking how many laps are left.