Rolls saddles

email hidden said:

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Any Rolls experts out there?

I'm not a Rolls expert--though I agree it's a great saddle, but I'll
guess that the difference is due to the 6 year age difference. I ran a
1st generation Flite for a while and found it was very different
feeling than newer models, for example. I bet they just refined the
shape over the years. Good to know, as I probably will be picking one
up this summer.

landotter said:

On Apr 15, 3:47 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have  a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Quoted message said:

Any Rolls experts out there?

I'm not a Rolls expert--though I agree it's a great saddle, but I'll
guess that the difference is due to the 6 year age difference. I ran a
1st generation Flite for a while and found it was very different
feeling than newer models, for example. I bet they just refined the
shape over the years. Good to know, as I probably will be picking one
up this summer.

The 2 older steel ones have about 12-13mm of drop in the middle when a
straight edge is placed across the top. The newer Ti one has 2-3mm.
The shell is stiffer too, without it seeming to have anything to do
with the flex of the rails.

I didn't think a more comfortable saddle could be had than the 2 steel
ones until I tried the Ti.

Joseph

Joseph Santaniello said:

The 2 older steel ones have about 12-13mm of drop in the middle when a
straight edge is placed across the top. The newer Ti one has 2-3mm.
The shell is stiffer too, without it seeming to have anything to do
with the flex of the rails.

I didn't think a more comfortable saddle could be had than the 2 steel
ones until I tried the Ti.

You could try a piece of 2x4 mounted on edge. Or a piece of 1-1/2"
PVC pipe.

As for me, I do best with saddles that provide a little something to
sit on. The Electra Townie saddle is the most satisfactory plastic
saddle I have tried, precisely because of fore-to-aft curvature that
you seem to have a problem with.

http://www.electrabike.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=598494

I could do without the top stitching and the fabric patch in the
middle, but the shape of this saddle beats all others I have used.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Joseph Santaniello said:

The 2 older steel ones have about 12-13mm of drop in the middle when a
straight edge is placed across the top. The newer Ti one has 2-3mm.
The shell is stiffer too, without it seeming to have anything to do
with the flex of the rails.

Quoted message said:

I didn't think a more comfortable saddle could be had than the 2 steel
ones until I tried the Ti.

You could try a piece of 2x4 mounted on edge.  Or a piece of 1-1/2"
PVC pipe.

As for me, I do best with saddles that provide a little something to
sit on.  The Electra Townie saddle is the most satisfactory plastic
saddle I have tried, precisely because of fore-to-aft curvature that
you seem to have a problem with.

http://www.electrabike.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=....

I could do without the top stitching and the fabric patch in the
middle, but the shape of this saddle beats all others I have used.

Chalo

I like the Rolls because it is wide enough for my butt bones to sit
nicely supported, unlike narrow modern racing saddles which put my
butt bones right on the edge which is most uncomfortable. The
curvature isn't really a problem, but I like having the option of
moving slightly fore and aft depeding upon circumstances, and the
flatter saddle accomodates this better. It also isn't as sensitive to
angle as the more bowed ones. I suspect this is more from the lesser
flex, than the shape.

Joseph

Joseph Santaniello said:

I like the Rolls because it is wide enough for my butt bones to sit
nicely supported, unlike narrow modern racing saddles which put my
butt bones right on the edge which is most uncomfortable.

My lasting impression of Rolls saddles from back when I used to see
them more than once in a long while was that they were very narrow.
At the time, some of the saddles I rode were narow, such as the Avocet
Gel 30 "Racing" model. But Rollses and Turbos struck me as the
equivalent of a fence rail with regards to seating quality.

I suppose that saddles have become even narrower since then, just like
bike frame tubes have grown fatter. During the same time, saddles
suiting my own taste have become wider and wider-- and run-of-the-mill
wide saddles are _much_ improved since those days. Steel pans, loose
foam padding, stamped plate rails, and birthday-cake contouring have
mostly passed from the scene.

Chalo

email hidden said:

Hi All,

I have a few San Marco Rolls saddles. Alle were picked up on eBay. One
steel-rail NOS from '86, one used steel-rail from '88, and one
titanium rails one from 2002.

When I bought the Ti rail one, I didn't realize it was Ti until it
came in the mail. Since I'm not a weight weenie, and I am wary of the
Ti rails, I shelved the saddle, content to use the other two which are
quite comfortable.

Yesterday I was doing some experimting with position, and I mounted
the Ti saddle so I could easily swap things around testing different
saddle tilts. For some reason the Ti saddle was alway better, no
matter what. This was confusing, until I looked closely a the saddle
and noticed the Ti one has a much less pronounced profile. It is more
flat, while the steel rail ones have a marked sway-back shape, and
softer shells.

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Any Rolls experts out there?

Joseph

I do not recall what you describe, though I used a pre-Flite (first
mass-produced "Ultra-Light" ti rail saddle) Rolls with steel rails and
then years later I used a ti rail model, but I had used several others
in between. You might be right, but the way I remember it they were
really close. The ti rails are going to flex a lot more than the steel
rails. When comparing the ride of a modern OS tube frame and a ti rail
saddle to a steel rail saddle on "old school" SL weight tubes, the
ride will be much closer than one might imagine. What I observed (as
an early adopter of OS butted al tubes) is that saddles became much
more critical to ride quality and comfort as the OS frames became the
rule rather than the exception. Also, many of us were racing on
tubular tires with nice comfy box-section rims (rims alone are stuffer
in clincher config compared to the same alloy box tubular rim) and the
clinchers tended to be stiffer and for a spell, the clinchers needed
to have more pressure till we got used to the minimums needed to avoid
pinch flats. In my own experience, I found tires with relatively more
volume that ultimately allowed me to run 95 to 110 without any
concerns about pinch flats. Still, all of these changes overlapped in
the same time-frame and the saddle choice was my preferred way to
guarantee whatever new equipment choice was not going to kill my
longest training rides (the slower you travel, the more weight the
saddle carries. In addition, higher cadence at a given power output
also tends to leave more weight on the saddle as compared to a slower
cadence, in reality this is only really noticeable when climbing, and
comfort is rarely a problem then).

The bottom line is that for the majority of changes though the era we
are talking about required compensation somewhere for those changes
that increased stiffness relative to the technologies that were
replaced. For all of these reasons, I can’t begin to imagine what an
older steel rail saddle feels like without my cushy Columbus SL tubes.
My last steel rail saddle was (the Rolls) installed on a SL weight
steel frame. I used that frame to test new gear, including the saddles
I planned to use when the Quantum II (welded and butted OS aluminum)
was in production. Fortunately for me I knew that I needed to have
that sorted out first. Even so, the ride still was not as comfortable
even though the first saddles had ti rails and various dampening
mechanisms for the rails (on at least half of them). If you are after
comfort, look at the rails and shell flex first, padding is last.
Also, those that use very flat saddles (like me) need then to adjust
position back and forth as cadence rises and falls through varied
terrain. Those that use saddles like the San Marco Concor (incl.
“Light” variant) tend to stay put through varied terrain. If you know
what to look for, you can find some saddles that are flat for several
cm, and with a tail as you describe Finding the flat saddles is not
hard at all. The Fizik Arione is probably the ultimate of its type. Of
the saddles I have used long-term, it feels most like a flat Rolls. I
can probably think of more, but your question reminds me of my
disappointment that the saddle brands fail to educate the customers
about these design attributes I assume because they fear losing
certain customers who suddenly become uncomfortable knowing too much
about the saddle they have, or that the extra info might select out
users who otherwise might be happy nor ever noticing the difference in
shapes. The first saddle brand to do this could expect to pick up a
lot of riders who are never quite happy with their saddles and never
knowing why, or at least not knowing how to solve the problem.

Some of the Selle Italia Flight models look more curved than the feel.
You might be ok with one of the styles without the gel and or hole in
the center. The “Max Flite” goes in and out of the catalog and they
feel pretty close to a rolls, though some of those have the “Trans Am”
hole and are not as flat feeling even though most of that difference
can be attributed to the hole. I saw a retailer who has a program
where they ship you up to 5 saddles and you return the styles you
don’t like. I think it was or is Competitive Cyclist (.com). That
might help you find if the Fizik Arione will be your best bet for wide
availability.

Chalo said:

Joseph Santaniello said:

I like the Rolls because it is wide enough for my butt bones to sit
nicely supported, unlike narrow modern racing saddles which put my
butt bones right on the edge which is most uncomfortable.

My lasting impression of Rolls saddles from back when I used to see
them more than once in a long while was that they were very narrow.
At the time, some of the saddles I rode were narow, such as the Avocet
Gel 30 "Racing" model.  But Rollses and Turbos struck me as the
equivalent of a fence rail with regards to seating quality.

I suppose that saddles have become even narrower since then, just like
bike frame tubes have grown fatter.  During the same time, saddles
suiting my own taste have become wider and wider-- and run-of-the-mill
wide saddles are _much_ improved since those days.  Steel pans, loose
foam padding, stamped plate rails, and birthday-cake contouring have
mostly passed from the scene.

Chalo

Most modern racing type saddles are 3cm narrower than the Rolls or
Turbo (I have a few of those too). Perhaps fine for a 60kg
lightweight, but not for anyone normal, or certainly not in your size.

If I had an upright position, I'd have different tastes.

Joseph

Chris M said:

On Apr 15, 1:47 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

I have a few San Marco Rolls saddles. Alle were picked up on eBay. One
steel-rail NOS from '86, one used steel-rail from '88, and one
titanium rails one from 2002.

Quoted message said:

When I bought the Ti rail one, I didn't realize it was Ti until it
came in the mail. Since I'm not a weight weenie, and I am wary of the
Ti rails, I shelved the saddle, content to use the other two which are
quite comfortable.

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I was doing some experimting with position, and I mounted
the Ti saddle so I could easily swap things around testing different
saddle tilts. For some reason the Ti saddle was alway better, no
matter what. This was confusing, until I looked closely a the saddle
and noticed the Ti one has a much less pronounced profile. It is more
flat, while the steel rail ones have a marked sway-back shape, and
softer shells.

Quoted message said:

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have  a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Quoted message said:

Any Rolls experts out there?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

I do not recall what you describe, though I used a pre-Flite (first
mass-produced "Ultra-Light" ti rail saddle) Rolls with steel rails and
then years later I used a ti rail model, but I had used several others
in between. You might be right, but the way I remember it they were
really close. The ti rails are going to flex a lot more than the steel
rails. When comparing the ride of a modern OS tube frame and a ti rail
saddle to a steel rail saddle on "old school" SL weight tubes, the
ride will be much closer than one might imagine. What I observed (as
an early adopter of OS butted al tubes) is that saddles became much
more critical to ride quality and comfort as the OS frames became the
rule rather than the exception. Also, many of us were racing on
tubular tires with nice comfy box-section rims (rims alone are stuffer
in clincher config compared to the same alloy box tubular rim) and the
clinchers tended to be stiffer and for a spell, the clinchers needed
to have more pressure till we got used to the minimums needed to avoid
pinch flats. In my own experience, I found tires with relatively more
volume that ultimately allowed me to run 95 to 110 without any
concerns about pinch flats. Still, all of these changes overlapped in
the same time-frame and the saddle choice was my preferred way to
guarantee whatever new equipment choice was not going to kill my
longest training rides (the slower you travel, the more weight the
saddle carries. In addition, higher cadence at a given power output
also tends to leave more weight on the saddle as compared to a slower
cadence, in reality this is only really noticeable when climbing, and
comfort is rarely a problem then).

The bottom line is that for the majority of changes though the era we
are talking about required compensation somewhere for those changes
that increased stiffness relative to the technologies that were
replaced. For all of these reasons, I can’t begin to imagine what an
older steel rail saddle feels like without my cushy Columbus SL tubes.
My last steel rail saddle was (the Rolls) installed on a SL weight
steel frame. I used that frame to test new gear, including the saddles
I planned to use when the Quantum II (welded and butted OS aluminum)
was in production. Fortunately for me I knew that I needed to have
that sorted out first. Even so, the ride still was not as comfortable
even though the first saddles had ti rails and various dampening
mechanisms for the rails (on at least half of them). If you are after
comfort, look at the rails and shell flex first, padding is last.
Also, those that use very flat saddles (like me) need then to adjust
position back and forth as cadence rises and falls through varied
terrain. Those that use saddles like the San Marco Concor (incl.
“Light” variant)  tend to stay put through varied terrain. If you know
what to look for, you can find some saddles that are flat for several
cm, and with a tail as you describe Finding the flat saddles is not
hard at all. The Fizik Arione is probably the ultimate of its type. Of
the saddles I have used long-term, it feels most like a flat Rolls. I
can probably think of more, but your question reminds me of my
disappointment that the saddle brands fail to educate the customers
about these design attributes I assume because they fear losing
certain customers who suddenly become uncomfortable knowing too much
about the saddle they have, or that the extra info might select out
users who otherwise might be happy nor ever noticing the difference in
shapes. The first saddle brand to do this could expect to pick up a
lot of riders who are never quite happy with their saddles and never
knowing why, or at least not knowing how to solve the problem.

Some of the Selle Italia Flight models look more curved than the feel.
You might be ok with one of the styles without the gel and or hole in
the center. The “Max Flite” goes in and out of the catalog and they
feel pretty close to a rolls, though some of those have the “Trans Am”
hole and are not as flat feeling even though most of that difference
can be attributed to the hole. I saw a retailer who has a program
where they ship you up to 5 saddles and you return the styles you
don’t like. I think it was or is Competitive Cyclist (.com). That
might help you find if the Fizik Arione will be your best bet for wide
availability.

Perhaps the Ti has a stiffer shell to compensate for the more flexible
rails. On my old TT funny bike back in the day I had a Concor to keep
my butt parked. Now I like moving back and forth. I've tried an Arione
(borrowed) but it was too narrow and has sharp corners that dug into
my thighs. Very unsatisfactory for me.

I'm quite happy with the steel Rollses, and I consider it a bonus with
the Ti one which is even better. I'm going to mount it on the bike I
ride the longest distances on.

I used to use a Turbo on my SPX tubular equipped bike. On my modern
bike (Alu and clincher) I used Selle Itaila SLR Gel Flow for a while
and it was pretty good, particularly with a nice flat nose, but was
too narrow so my butt would roll off to one side on bumps. Now I'm
stocking up on Rollses, and I suppose I'll add another Ti to the
collection for safe keeping.

Joseph

I use San Marco Rolls saddles and have done so for the last maybe 10
or more years. The Ti railes ones are just as strong and maybe
stronger than the ones with Chromoly rails. I believe that today, Ti
rails may be all that are available anymore. The tops are quite flat
from nose to tail and to my recollection have always been so out of
the box. I do recall in the distant past having one or two instances
of a Rolls saddle becoming swaybacked after a couple of years of use,
which made it very uncomfortable. That said, it has been many years
since that has happened and I have gone though quite a few Rolls since
that time without a recurrance of the problem. I discard them now
when the leather becomes very cracked and rough due to prolonged and
repeated soaking with sweat. Liberal applications from time to time
of neatsfoot oil does go a long way toward postponing or preventing
the onset of cracking. This saddle (Rolls) is the most comfortable
and satisfactory saddle I have ever experienced. I weigh slightly
over 200 lbs and ride 5000-7000 miles per year.

Hope this helps.

Cal

P.S. Rolls saddles are getting a little harder to find these days. I
find that Colorado Cyclist sometimes has them and almost always Excel
Sports, Boulder Colorado has them. I always have my next one or two
in the box in my closet.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:47:21 -0700 (PDT),

Quoted post said:

Hi All,

I have a few San Marco Rolls saddles. Alle were picked up on eBay. One
steel-rail NOS from '86, one used steel-rail from '88, and one
titanium rails one from 2002.

When I bought the Ti rail one, I didn't realize it was Ti until it
came in the mail. Since I'm not a weight weenie, and I am wary of the
Ti rails, I shelved the saddle, content to use the other two which are
quite comfortable.

Yesterday I was doing some experimting with position, and I mounted
the Ti saddle so I could easily swap things around testing different
saddle tilts. For some reason the Ti saddle was alway better, no
matter what. This was confusing, until I looked closely a the saddle
and noticed the Ti one has a much less pronounced profile. It is more
flat, while the steel rail ones have a marked sway-back shape, and
softer shells.

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Any Rolls experts out there?

Joseph

email hidden said:

Now I'm
stocking up on Rollses, and I suppose I'll add another Ti to the
collection for safe keeping.

Are you stocking up on NOS Rollses when you find them, or buying the
new ones with the pre-cracked (textured?) covers?

I wish I had bought more of the NOS ones when Nashbar closed them out
a few years ago. When they ran out, I bought a couple of Vetta Race
Lites even cheaper from them and they've been pretty good too--about
the same width as the Rolls, less padding, not as flat either along
the length or across the width, but pretty comfy nevertheless.

cal said:

I use San Marco Rolls saddles and have done so for the last maybe 10
or more years.  The Ti railes ones are just as strong and maybe
stronger than the ones with Chromoly rails.  I believe that today, Ti
rails may be all that are available anymore.  The tops are quite flat
from nose to tail and to my recollection have always been so out of
the box.  I do recall in the distant past having one or two instances
of a Rolls saddle becoming swaybacked after a couple of years of use,
which made it very uncomfortable.  That said, it has been many years
since that has happened and I have gone though quite a few Rolls since
that time without a recurrance of the problem.  I discard them now
when the leather becomes very cracked and rough due to prolonged and
repeated soaking with sweat.  Liberal applications from time to time
of neatsfoot oil does go a long way toward postponing or preventing
the onset of cracking.  This saddle (Rolls) is the most comfortable
and satisfactory saddle I have ever experienced.  I weigh slightly
over 200 lbs and ride 5000-7000 miles per year.

Hope this helps.

Cal

P.S.  Rolls saddles are getting a little harder to find these days.  I
find that Colorado Cyclist sometimes has them and almost always Excel
Sports, Boulder Colorado has them.  I always have my next one or two
in the box in my closet.

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:47:21 -0700 (PDT),

Quoted post said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

I have a few San Marco Rolls saddles. Alle were picked up on eBay. One
steel-rail NOS from '86, one used steel-rail from '88, and one
titanium rails one from 2002.

Quoted message said:

When I bought the Ti rail one, I didn't realize it was Ti until it
came in the mail. Since I'm not a weight weenie, and I am wary of the
Ti rails, I shelved the saddle, content to use the other two which are
quite comfortable.

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I was doing some experimting with position, and I mounted
the Ti saddle so I could easily swap things around testing different
saddle tilts. For some reason the Ti saddle was alway better, no
matter what. This was confusing, until I looked closely a the saddle
and noticed the Ti one has a much less pronounced profile. It is more
flat, while the steel rail ones have a marked sway-back shape, and
softer shells.

Quoted message said:

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have  a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date? This
Ti rail saddle is absolutely perfect and I'd like to get more just
like it, but I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of saddles like
the extra sway-back ones I already have.

Quoted message said:

Any Rolls experts out there?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

My "old" ones were slightly swaybacked from start. Not from my 220lbs.
Good to hear the recollections about flattish Ti's.

Joseph

Victor Kan said:

On Apr 16, 4:44 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Now I'm
stocking up on Rollses, and I suppose I'll add another Ti to the
collection for safe keeping.

Are you stocking up on NOS Rollses when you find them, or buying the
new ones with the pre-cracked (textured?) covers?

I wish I had bought more of the NOS ones when Nashbar closed them out
a few years ago.  When they ran out, I bought a couple of Vetta Race
Lites even cheaper from them and they've been pretty good too--about
the same width as the Rolls, less padding, not as flat either along
the length or across the width, but pretty comfy nevertheless.

I can't stand the ugly textured cover on the new ones, so I'm on the
look out for NOS. Plus they came in snazzy colors!

Joseph

joseph.santanie said:

So is this a fluke, or do all the Ti rail Rollses have  a flatter
profile and stiffer shell? Or is this related to production date?

I've been using Rolls' for about 20 years (all steel railed and both
smooth and textured versions). They all seemed the same as far as
shape, with no large variations from flat. I'll have to measure one
with a straightedge to see how much of a dip it has.

There was also a Rolls "due" (Rolls two) model that was considerably
different.

Art Harris

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Victor Kan said:

On Apr 16, 4:44 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Now I'm
stocking up on Rollses, and I suppose I'll add another Ti to the
collection for safe keeping.

Are you stocking up on NOS Rollses when you find them, or buying the
new ones with the pre-cracked (textured?) covers?

I wish I had bought more of the NOS ones when Nashbar closed them out
a few years ago. When they ran out, I bought a couple of Vetta Race
Lites even cheaper from them and they've been pretty good too--about
the same width as the Rolls, less padding, not as flat either along
the length or across the width, but pretty comfy nevertheless.

I can't stand the ugly textured cover on the new ones, so I'm on the
look out for NOS. Plus they came in snazzy colors!

Joseph

Those textured covers smooth out in about 1500 miles. Rolls steel rail
saddles are available from Probikekit.com for only about $30 delivered.
They usually run out of them as soon as they get a shipment in. Best saddle
I have ever used.

Neal