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Mountain Bikers Lobby to Get Bikes Allowed in Wilderness!

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Mountain Bikes
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26 March 2008
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. Jim Hasenauer teaches Rhetoric -- the art of effective lying.... Not
    too effective, huh?

    Mike

    Vol. 35 No. 4 | March 3, 2003
    Essay
    Printable Version

    Let bikers in, and we'll stand behind wilderness

    by Jim Hasenaur

    I'm a mountain bicyclist. The pleasure of my life is pedaling through
    wild places, experiencing the views, the changing colors and textures
    of the plant life, the occasional animal sightings. On the trail, I'm
    renewed, and my commitment to public-land preservation is
    strengthened. I think that's the way most mountain bikers feel, and
    historically, we've been eager to back conservation efforts.

    We're troubled, though, that designated wilderness, the highest level
    of protection, is encumbered with regulations that ban bicycling.
    Across the country, wilderness advocates are advancing new proposals
    while mountain bicyclists struggle to find a meaningful place at the
    table. It's a wedge issue with a capital W.

    The 1964 Wilderness Act is a remarkable tool. Once Congress acts,
    wilderness areas are protected in perpetuity for their own sake and
    for the recreational and spiritual sustenance they provide visitors.
    Wilderness recreation offers adventure, discovery, solitude and awe -
    exactly the kinds of exxperience most valued by bicyclists like me.

    But wilderness advocates, like kids with a jackknife, are inclined to
    use the tool at hand. They mark their accomplishments in acres
    designated and their losses as anything less than wilderness as
    proposed. Though bicyclists should be natural allies of the wilderness
    movement, because of the bike ban we're understandably reluctant to
    embrace proposals that would kick us off cherished trails.

    It would certainly be easier for cyclists to oppose wilderness
    outright, but that's not who we are. We value wild places. We've
    endorsed preservation of all roadless areas as the foundation of real
    resource protection.

    We try to support wilderness where possible, and when proposals
    include significant bicycle trails, we work to find ways to protect
    the land and still preserve the riding. These tools include boundary
    adjustments, cherry-stem trails and land designations that provide
    wilderness-like protection from roads, motors and extraction, but
    still allow bikes.

    Unfortunately, many wilderness advocates see these measures as losses,
    discounting alternatives as "wilderness-lite." They characterize
    bicyclists as selfish and uncooperative. The cost of this infighting
    has been acrimony, poisoned relationships and lost time, energy and
    trust. Meanwhile, the Blue Ribbon Coalition and other anti-wilderness
    groups court cyclists.

    The 46 million U.S. mountain bicyclists are a giant constituency of
    public-land enthusiasts. They're increasingly committed to wild land
    protection, but they're understandably wary of wilderness
    designations. That's why it's clear to me that there ought to be a way
    to work for wilderness protection that doesn't ban bicycles. If the
    regulation were changed, and bikes were allowed on some trails in some
    wilderness, the entire nature of this debate would shift.

    Most wilderness advocates are astonished to learn that the Wilderness
    Act did not ban bicycles. It banned "mechanized transport," which was
    defined in Forest Service regulation as "powered by a nonliving power
    source." Bicycles were allowed and ridden in some wilderness until
    1984, when a ban first introduced in 1977 was made final. This is
    significant because it means the bike ban is regulatory, not
    statutory. It was imposed 20 years after the Wilderness Act by folks
    who mistook mountain bikes for motorcycles.

    It's time to get past this. Bikes are muscle-powered, human-scale,
    quiet and nonpolluting. The tradition and history of bicycle use on
    the wild lands of the West goes back to the 1880s. Bicycling is
    trail-based recreation. We may range as far as horses and runners, but
    our impacts on the trails and on plants and animals have been shown to
    be similar to those of hikers. Yes, bikes do provide a mechanical
    advantage, but it's only a degree of difference from oarlocks,
    suspension poles, skis and the high-tech alloys and composites
    associated with other outdoor equipment.

    I believe that if mountain bikers were allowed on some wilderness
    trails, cyclists would overwhelmingly endorse new wilderness. Rest
    assured: Trails would never swarm with bikes; most would still be
    earmarked for hikers. Yet in the same way that backpackers cherish
    wilderness regardless of whether they ever visit it, mountain bikers
    would support more wilderness, both in principle and at the ballot
    box.

    It's time to make a niche for mountain biking in the push to preserve
    wild places. Cyclists, with their commitment, passion and numbers,
    could swell the ranks of a new, more inclusive movement. The only
    difference between wilderness now and wilderness future would be the
    presence of bicycles on some trails and much, much more wilderness.

    Jim Hasenauer is a contributor to Writers on the Range, a service of
    High Country News in Paonia, Colorado. He is a professor of
    communication studies at California State University at Northridge and
    a board member of the International Mountain Bicycling Association,
    though his opinions are his own.

    © copyright 2002 High Country News
    High Country News* Box 1090 * Paonia, CO 81428 * 1-800-905-1155
    To receive two free copies of High Country News, call 1-800-905-1155
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman said:

    Michael J. Vandeman

    How gay.

  3. I think you are on the wrong side of this one Vandeman. The author makes
    several valid points about you and he having common goals, but because you
    are a crybaby you shut him out of the table where the common ground can be
    leveraged to arrive at a conservation plan that works for all. There is
    plenty of room in the wilderness for transient visitors of all types. What
    wilderness can not sustain is any form of permanant encampment.

    But, you're an idiot that refuses to look at facts in any sort of rational
    manner.

    Speaking of the fine art of lying, did I mention that when you point out a
    lie it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?

    You should try embracing allies instead of alienating them. It's the whole
    catch-more-bees-with-honey thing ...

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Jim Hasenauer teaches Rhetoric -- the art of effective lying.... Not
    too effective, huh?

    Mike

    Vol. 35 No. 4 | March 3, 2003
    Essay
    Printable Version

    Let bikers in, and we'll stand behind wilderness

    by Jim Hasenaur

    I'm a mountain bicyclist. The pleasure of my life is pedaling through
    wild places, experiencing the views, the changing colors and textures
    of the plant life, the occasional animal sightings. On the trail, I'm
    renewed, and my commitment to public-land preservation is
    strengthened. I think that's the way most mountain bikers feel, and
    historically, we've been eager to back conservation efforts.

    We're troubled, though, that designated wilderness, the highest level
    of protection, is encumbered with regulations that ban bicycling.
    Across the country, wilderness advocates are advancing new proposals
    while mountain bicyclists struggle to find a meaningful place at the
    table. It's a wedge issue with a capital W.

    The 1964 Wilderness Act is a remarkable tool. Once Congress acts,
    wilderness areas are protected in perpetuity for their own sake and
    for the recreational and spiritual sustenance they provide visitors.
    Wilderness recreation offers adventure, discovery, solitude and awe -
    exactly the kinds of exxperience most valued by bicyclists like me.

    But wilderness advocates, like kids with a jackknife, are inclined to
    use the tool at hand. They mark their accomplishments in acres
    designated and their losses as anything less than wilderness as
    proposed. Though bicyclists should be natural allies of the wilderness
    movement, because of the bike ban we're understandably reluctant to
    embrace proposals that would kick us off cherished trails.

    It would certainly be easier for cyclists to oppose wilderness
    outright, but that's not who we are. We value wild places. We've
    endorsed preservation of all roadless areas as the foundation of real
    resource protection.

    We try to support wilderness where possible, and when proposals
    include significant bicycle trails, we work to find ways to protect
    the land and still preserve the riding. These tools include boundary
    adjustments, cherry-stem trails and land designations that provide
    wilderness-like protection from roads, motors and extraction, but
    still allow bikes.

    Unfortunately, many wilderness advocates see these measures as losses,
    discounting alternatives as "wilderness-lite." They characterize
    bicyclists as selfish and uncooperative. The cost of this infighting
    has been acrimony, poisoned relationships and lost time, energy and
    trust. Meanwhile, the Blue Ribbon Coalition and other anti-wilderness
    groups court cyclists.

    The 46 million U.S. mountain bicyclists are a giant constituency of
    public-land enthusiasts. They're increasingly committed to wild land
    protection, but they're understandably wary of wilderness
    designations. That's why it's clear to me that there ought to be a way
    to work for wilderness protection that doesn't ban bicycles. If the
    regulation were changed, and bikes were allowed on some trails in some
    wilderness, the entire nature of this debate would shift.

    Most wilderness advocates are astonished to learn that the Wilderness
    Act did not ban bicycles. It banned "mechanized transport," which was
    defined in Forest Service regulation as "powered by a nonliving power
    source." Bicycles were allowed and ridden in some wilderness until
    1984, when a ban first introduced in 1977 was made final. This is
    significant because it means the bike ban is regulatory, not
    statutory. It was imposed 20 years after the Wilderness Act by folks
    who mistook mountain bikes for motorcycles.

    It's time to get past this. Bikes are muscle-powered, human-scale,
    quiet and nonpolluting. The tradition and history of bicycle use on
    the wild lands of the West goes back to the 1880s. Bicycling is
    trail-based recreation. We may range as far as horses and runners, but
    our impacts on the trails and on plants and animals have been shown to
    be similar to those of hikers. Yes, bikes do provide a mechanical
    advantage, but it's only a degree of difference from oarlocks,
    suspension poles, skis and the high-tech alloys and composites
    associated with other outdoor equipment.

    I believe that if mountain bikers were allowed on some wilderness
    trails, cyclists would overwhelmingly endorse new wilderness. Rest
    assured: Trails would never swarm with bikes; most would still be
    earmarked for hikers. Yet in the same way that backpackers cherish
    wilderness regardless of whether they ever visit it, mountain bikers
    would support more wilderness, both in principle and at the ballot
    box.

    It's time to make a niche for mountain biking in the push to preserve
    wild places. Cyclists, with their commitment, passion and numbers,
    could swell the ranks of a new, more inclusive movement. The only
    difference between wilderness now and wilderness future would be the
    presence of bicycles on some trails and much, much more wilderness.

    Jim Hasenauer is a contributor to Writers on the Range, a service of
    High Country News in Paonia, Colorado. He is a professor of
    communication studies at California State University at Northridge and
    a board member of the International Mountain Bicycling Association,
    though his opinions are his own.

    © copyright 2002 High Country News
    High Country News* Box 1090 * Paonia, CO 81428 * 1-800-905-1155
    To receive two free copies of High Country News, call 1-800-905-1155
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are
    fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  4. Jeff, I also don't think he can grasp that he is isolating the very
    folks that will do the needed trail maintenance and policing. There are
    enough responsible folks in any group that will 'stand behind the
    Wilderness' to weed out the idiots or to at least report the idiots and
    make them feel very unwelcome.

    It's the same with any off roading or 'wilderness' related group. Folks
    like the snowmobile clubs get right [censored] if 'others' wreck their
    trails by misuse and they will turn in any such person in a quick
    second. Like our RAMJ+W groups that looked after some trails, once we
    are involved, we do tend to 'police' the trails to a certain extent and
    are more likely to report someone who littered 'our' trails or went nuts
    off trail, etc....

    It's too bad Mikey can't get focused to the reality of the world in
    2008, he is persistent enough to actually do some good instead of
    chasing windmills.

    Mike

    Jeff Strickland said:

    I think you are on the wrong side of this one Vandeman. The author makes
    several valid points about you and he having common goals, but because
    you are a crybaby you shut him out of the table where the common ground
    can be leveraged to arrive at a conservation plan that works for all.
    There is plenty of room in the wilderness for transient visitors of all
    types. What wilderness can not sustain is any form of permanant encampment.

    But, you're an idiot that refuses to look at facts in any sort of
    rational manner.

    Speaking of the fine art of lying, did I mention that when you point out
    a lie it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?

    You should try embracing allies instead of alienating them. It's the
    whole catch-more-bees-with-honey thing ...

    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Jim Hasenauer teaches Rhetoric -- the art of effective lying.... Not
    too effective, huh?

    Mike

    Vol. 35 No. 4 | March 3, 2003
    Essay
    Printable Version

    Let bikers in, and we'll stand behind wilderness

    by Jim Hasenaur

  5. Jeff Strickland said:

    I think you are on the wrong side of this one Vandeman. The author makes
    several valid points about you and he having common goals, but because you
    are a crybaby you shut him out of the table where the common ground can be
    leveraged to arrive at a conservation plan that works for all.

    We already have that: Wilderness allows mountain bikers to hike,JUST
    LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

    There is

    Quoted message said:

    plenty of room in the wilderness for transient visitors of all types. What
    wilderness can not sustain is any form of permanant encampment.

    Or erosion-causing, wildlife-killing mountain biking.

    Quoted message said:

    But, you're an idiot that refuses to look at facts in any sort of rational
    manner.

    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    Quoted message said:

    Speaking of the fine art of lying, did I mention that when you point out a
    lie it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?

    You should try embracing allies instead of alienating them. It's the whole
    catch-more-bees-with-honey thing ...

    Mountain bikers are ALREADY welcome in Wilderness. They are just too
    LAZY to hike, like other people.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  6. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    It is difficult to use rational and anything you have ever said in the same
    sentence.

  7. On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:26:26 -0400, Mike Romain <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Jeff, I also don't think he can grasp that he is isolating the very
    folks that will do the needed trail maintenance and policing.

    BS. We don't need their crappy "trail maintenance", which is designed
    only to provide thrills for mountain bikers. And they don't police
    their own peers NOW. What makes you think they will suddenly start
    doing it, if they get bike access to wilderness? You are very naive.

    There are

    Quoted message said:

    enough responsible folks in any group that will 'stand behind the
    Wilderness' to weed out the idiots or to at least report the idiots and
    make them feel very unwelcome.

    BS. They SUPPORT those very idiots NOW.

    Quoted message said:

    It's the same with any off roading or 'wilderness' related group. Folks
    like the snowmobile clubs get right [censored] if 'others' wreck their
    trails by misuse

    BS. Trail misuse is their middle name.

    and they will turn in any such person in a quick

    Quoted message said:

    second. Like our RAMJ+W groups that looked after some trails, once we
    are involved, we do tend to 'police' the trails to a certain extent and
    are more likely to report someone who littered 'our' trails or went nuts
    off trail, etc....

    It's too bad Mikey can't get focused to the reality of the world in
    2008, he is persistent enough to actually do some good instead of
    chasing windmills.

    Mike

    Since you don't understand, let me spell it out for you: the mountain
    bikers are saying "Let me destroy the Wilderness, so I can help you
    protect it." NOW do you get it?
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. Thanks for giving his compelling arguments wider distribution!

    But you forgot to slander him.

    --
    [email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

  9. In article <MpDGj.9051$Oj5.2296@trnddc06>, [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    It is difficult to use rational and anything you have ever said in the same
    sentence.

    That's what the word "not" is for.

    --
    [email hidden] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Braze your own bicycle frames. See
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>

  10. Mike Vandeman said:


    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    Number?

  11. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.


    ?

    wrote a book...[censored]. You never wrote anything of your own
    material. I can just see it now full of other's quotes.
    Mike Vanderman'sofficial [censored] about mountain biking...by everyone
    else except Mike Vanderman. I believe you'll find it down the
    street...the local homeless shelter uses it for toilet paper.

    You are such a liar in every sense and each post just reinforces it.
    You said they can Hike? guarenteed if there was no mountain biking,
    you would [censored] about horses in the woods or on their own
    fields...then go to hiking and the impact. Pretty soon Mikey would be
    living in a bubble...but he's still fly to his meetings. You fraud.

  12. Just for the record, did anyone ever google the word mike vanderman
    and look at the images...pathetic and gross! what a way to protest.

  13. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:


    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    Number?

    That's an expression. It means I am the expert on it.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  14. email hidden said:
    Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.


    ?

    wrote a book...[censored]. You never wrote anything of your own
    material. I can just see it now full of other's quotes.
    Mike Vanderman'sofficial [censored] about mountain biking...by everyone
    else except Mike Vanderman. I believe you'll find it down the
    street...the local homeless shelter uses it for toilet paper.

    You are such a liar in every sense and each post just reinforces it.
    You said they can Hike? guarenteed if there was no mountain biking,
    you would [censored] about horses in the woods or on their own
    fields...then go to hiking and the impact. Pretty soon Mikey would be
    living in a bubble...but he's still fly to his meetings.

    Prove it, liar.

    Quoted message said:

    You fraud.


    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  15. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:

    On Mar 26, 10:08 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    thing ever written about it.

    Quoted message said:

    What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    Number?

    That's an expression. It means I am the expert on it.

    Cite please.

  16. thousands of posts later and we are all still waiting for the phantom
    articles of Mikey. Your site proves all my points. All
    quotes...nothing orignal, nothing written by you with any scientific
    background. You merely use everyone elses material and research. The
    entire site...quotes with nothing original. I don't count letters to
    the editor...those are your only writings. They are merely babbles
    similar to what you post here.

    Let's see who is lying...hmmm....

    your website on pacbell - the one you quote always. Yes or NO...is
    this your site? if so. point proven in regards to continued articles
    by everyone else except mikey...and qotes from everyone...

    You admit to staying in college for a PhD to avoid the draft...you
    said it yourself on the site here. remember...you downplayed veterans
    and said...My country had better uses for me at home? haha...ok. glad
    you got that degree in dietary arts.
    You can't deny this you coward.

    Working for a company that kills tons of natural areas a year in the
    name of "technology advancement"...? what's up with that. You lobby
    for nature and then counter it by working for a company that damages
    it? You can't dispute this.

    Fly to your seminars., conventions...chef's meetings or just dinner
    with the fellow lunchladies...more pollution output in flights than a
    mtber could dish out in a year...but that's ok...right.

    promoted Sierra Club...the company that only lobbies and takes dollars
    and really does very little for preservation anymore. They also had
    out nice little gifts for joining...Mikey supports these people even
    though they don't associate with him anymore...Oh. those nice little
    gifts are made in China...one of the biggest environmental destructors
    on the planet...but hey...it's ok, right mikey?

    You are an [censored] Mike. People could post every fact here. You would
    still LIE about it. You are the fraud and liar.

    We're still waiting for the book info...but hey, even if you do
    provide it...it will only be other's information and quotes. I am more
    of a naturalist than you ever will be or know to be.

  17. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Mar 26, 10:08 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    > thing ever written about it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    Number?

    Quoted message said:

    That's an expression. It means I am the expert on it.


    Oh...so you're saying there isn't a book? Oh I forgot...

    YOU LIE!!!!

  18. Siskuwihane said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:

    On Mar 26, 10:08 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:

    > I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    > thing ever written about it.

    Quoted message said:

    What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    Number?

    That's an expression. It means I am the expert on it.

    Cite please.

    Do your own research.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  19. email hidden said:

    thousands of posts later and we are all still waiting for the phantom
    articles of Mikey. Your site proves all my points. All
    quotes...nothing orignal, nothing written by you with any scientific
    background. You merely use everyone elses material and research. The
    entire site...quotes with nothing original. I don't count letters to
    the editor...those are your only writings. They are merely babbles
    similar to what you post here.

    Let's see who is lying...hmmm....

    your website on pacbell - the one you quote always. Yes or NO...is
    this your site? if so. point proven in regards to continued articles
    by everyone else except mikey...and qotes from everyone...

    You admit to staying in college for a PhD to avoid the draft...you
    said it yourself on the site here. remember...you downplayed veterans
    and said...My country had better uses for me at home? haha...ok. glad
    you got that degree in dietary arts.
    You can't deny this you coward.

    Working for a company that kills tons of natural areas a year in the
    name of "technology advancement"...? what's up with that. You lobby
    for nature and then counter it by working for a company that damages
    it? You can't dispute this.

    Fly to your seminars., conventions...chef's meetings or just dinner
    with the fellow lunchladies...more pollution output in flights than a
    mtber could dish out in a year...but that's ok...right.

    promoted Sierra Club...the company that only lobbies and takes dollars
    and really does very little for preservation anymore. They also had
    out nice little gifts for joining...Mikey supports these people even
    though they don't associate with him anymore...Oh. those nice little
    gifts are made in China...one of the biggest environmental destructors
    on the planet...but hey...it's ok, right mikey?

    You are an [censored] Mike. People could post every fact here. You would
    still LIE about it. You are the fraud and liar.

    We're still waiting for the book info...but hey, even if you do
    provide it...it will only be other's information and quotes. I am more
    of a naturalist than you ever will be or know to be.

    There's no point in communicating with a LIAR. Answer your own
    questions.
    --
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  20. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:01:08 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT), Siskuwihane

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote:
    >On Mar 26, 10:08 pm, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> I wrote the book on mountain biking impacts. That's the most rational
    >> thing ever written about it.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >What's the title of said book and the Library of Congress Control
    >Number?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's an expression. It means I am the expert on it.

    Quoted message said:

    Cite please.

    Do your own research.

    Ok, I've done that and came to 2 conclusions.

    Michael J. Vandeman is NOT an expert on the impacts of mountain
    biking.

    Michael J. Vandeman uses commercial airlines for travel to
    international conferences when he could have use wind powered sailing
    vessels, thus he put himSELF above the enviroment, making him a PHONY.

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