Spoke tension amount?

Bruce who said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type.
This bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing
fully-loaded touring. In fact I broke a couple.

Quoted message said:

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples.
But I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the
spokes.

You didn't say how many spokes your wheel has and how heavy the rim
is. Therefore, advising how tight to make spokes has no basis. I am
sure that 1.8mm diameter spokes would most likely be better for your
use, assuming you have a reasonable number of spokes.

Quoted message said:

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or
51 to 179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

Quoted message said:

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front
spokes. On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21
on the left side.

I don't understand whose tensiometer you are using and why there is
such a large span of acceptable tensions. The spokes need to be tight
enough to not go slack when you statically sit on the saddle with the
bicycle normally loaded. Bouncing on the saddle should not cause
spokes to become slack.

Quoted message said:

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too
tight? Too loose?

No way to tell what tension is right, as I said.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help.

You might look into the matter in "the Bicycle Wheel", a book that can
be found at most better bicycle shops and on the web at Amazon or ABE
Books.

Jobst Brandt

I am a group 2 wheel builder that is I stop tightening way before
reaching tensions plunked at the bike shop because: I lack necessary
skills and two I take too long at it anyway, shortening time trueing
leaving spokes a bit loose. My spoke do not 'tink', the spokes 'dunk'
But I lube the DT spokes at the hub holes with Finish Line teflon/wax.
Fill the holes both sides and coat the flanges so noooo dirt gets in
there. So when the rear spokes flex under 60-80 pound loads, I weigh
165, movement is lubed not binding without lube and the holes stay
round longer.
Spokes do not break.
generic spokes break: lubed DT's do not.

Quoted message said:

Bruce who said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type.
This bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing
fully-loaded touring. In fact I broke a couple.

Quoted message said:

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples.
But I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the
spokes.

You didn't say how many spokes your wheel has and how heavy the rim
is. Therefore, advising how tight to make spokes has no basis. I am
sure that 1.8mm diameter spokes would most likely be better for your
use, assuming you have a reasonable number of spokes.

Quoted message said:

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or
51 to 179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

Quoted message said:

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front
spokes. On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21
on the left side.

I don't understand whose tensiometer you are using and why there is
such a large span of acceptable tensions. The spokes need to be tight
enough to not go slack when you statically sit on the saddle with the
bicycle normally loaded. Bouncing on the saddle should not cause
spokes to become slack.

Quoted message said:

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too
tight? Too loose?

No way to tell what tension is right, as I said.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your help.

You might look into the matter in "the Bicycle Wheel", a book that can
be found at most better bicycle shops and on the web at Amazon or ABE
Books.

what? no error repetition of spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear"?

Bruce W.1 said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type. This
bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing fully-loaded
touring. In fact I broke a couple.

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples. But
I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the spokes.

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or 51 to
179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front spokes. On
the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21 on the left side.

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too tight?
Too loose?

Thanks for your help.

spoke tension isn't determined by load but by the rim manufacturer.
[nor is it determined by spoke count.]

if the rims are of unknown type, you're stuck with just guesstimating
based on other rims that may appear similar for which you have been able
to get the tension data. and if the spoke tension you're using now
proves to be excessive, the rims will crack giving you a perfect excuse
to re-rim with new ones for which you /can/ get the data.

On 25 Mar 2008 01:47:25 GMT, [email hidden] may have

Quoted message said:

You might look into the matter in "the Bicycle Wheel", a book that can
be found at most better bicycle shops and on the web at Amazon or ABE
Books.

And, oddly enough, even in the occasional library; it's worth
checking, if your library can be searched without having to physically
visit the premises. (I will note, however, that here in Houston, none
of the local public library systems have a copy now.)

BTW, the ever-modest Jobst Brandt wrote it. (I have an older copy;
it's worth the time to read it, IMO.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 25 Mar 2008 01:47:25 GMT, [email hidden] may have

Quoted message said:

You might look into the matter in "the Bicycle Wheel", a book that can
be found at most better bicycle shops and on the web at Amazon or ABE
Books.

And, oddly enough, even in the occasional library; it's worth
checking, if your library can be searched without having to physically
visit the premises. (I will note, however, that here in Houston, none
of the local public library systems have a copy now.)

BTW, the ever-modest Jobst Brandt wrote it. (I have an older copy;
it's worth the time to read it, IMO.)

The Multnomah County (Portland OR) library has 2 copies! I bought one a few
years ago, and agree that it's worthwhile to read.
To the OP, the TM-1 instruction booklet talks about "recommended tension" as
high as 130 Kilograms force. The 26 units you mentioned would translate into
137 kgf, which seems high, unless you have low spoke count wheels.
Kerry

Bruce W.1 said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type.  This
bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing fully-loaded
touring.  In fact I broke a couple.

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples.  But
I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the spokes.

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or 51 to
179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front spokes.
On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21 on the left
side.

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring?  Too tight?
  Too loose?

Thanks for your help.

100kgf freewheel side is a good place to start and recommended by a
number of manufacturers. Raise the tension if 100kgf is not
sufficient to keep the wheel true and tight. If you approach 120kgf
and the wheel still goes slack with loaded riding, then you need to
consider thread lock of some sort. You also need to make sure that
you are relieving spoke wind-up during the truing process (if your
newly trued wheels ping a lot when you saddle up, that's a problem). I
think 26 units is pretty tight, but I don't recall what the Park chart
says. Too tight is a problem these days because it will cause
cracking around the spoke holes on many rims. There is a fine line
these days between enough tension and too much. The Book has lots of
good information, so does Sheldon Brown's web-site and some other
sources. --- Jay Beattie.

Bruce W.1 said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type. This
bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing fully-loaded
touring. In fact I broke a couple.

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples. But
I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the spokes.

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or 51 to
179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front spokes.
On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21 on the left
side.

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too tight?
Too loose?

Thanks for your help.

23.5 on the Park TM-1 with 2.0 mm spokes gives 100kgf.
Good for front ... both sides & right rear.

jim beam said:

Bruce W.1 said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type. This
bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing fully-loaded
touring. In fact I broke a couple.

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples. But
I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the spokes.

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or 51
to 179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front spokes.
On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21 on the
left side.

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too
tight? Too loose?

Thanks for your help.

spoke tension isn't determined by load but by the rim manufacturer. [nor
is it determined by spoke count.]

if the rims are of unknown type, you're stuck with just guesstimating
based on other rims that may appear similar for which you have been able
to get the tension data. and if the spoke tension you're using now
proves to be excessive, the rims will crack giving you a perfect excuse
to re-rim with new ones for which you /can/ get the data.

==============================================================

The manual that came with the tension meter reinforces what you said.
The rim strength determines the spoke tension. But I have no way of
knowing what that is. So this is guesswork.

BTW, each wheel has 36 spokes.

In a moment of blinding truth it occured to me that I've got a brand new
Surly LHT sitting here, so I measured its spoke tension. It is about
the same as what I did. So I'm in the right ballpark.

OHWOW! an in field comparaarararararison of Park TM-1
and a rim-spoke-TM chart
NO WE ARE GETTING THERE EYEEYEYAHAHAHHooooo
I knew Ornee was on top of this.
I heard Dave is aligned with Turn and Taxis
TM means Trade Mark?

say bruce, I'm taken aback offering group 2 advice to a new Surly
owner but why not get a quality spoke TM?
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=8815&category=2141

Also the infoflow here reminds that OUAT I brought the rear wheel into
the LBS and blew $35 on a pro trueing job.
spokes broke. too tight.

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/fuscobrothers;_ylt=AsMu0qxivQ9kUeHHHnvrggYL_b4F

datakoll said:

OHWOW! an in field comparaarararararison of Park TM-1
and a rim-spoke-TM chart
NO WE ARE GETTING THERE EYEEYEYAHAHAHHooooo
I knew Ornee was on top of this.
I heard Dave is aligned with Turn and Taxis
TM means Trade Mark?

Isn't it Sturm and Taxis?

D'ohBoy

D'ohBoy said:

datakoll said:

OHWOW! an in field comparaarararararison of Park TM-1
and a rim-spoke-TM chart
NO WE ARE GETTING THERE EYEEYEYAHAHAHHooooo
I knew Ornee was on top of this.
I heard Dave is aligned with Turn and Taxis
TM means Trade Mark?

Isn't it Sturm and Taxis?

D'ohBoy

no, I'm sure it's the boy racers vs the commuter tourers

Bruce W.1 said:

jim beam said:

Bruce W.1 said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type. This
bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing fully-loaded
touring. In fact I broke a couple.

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples.
But I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the spokes.

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or 51
to 179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front spokes.
On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21 on the
left side.

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too
tight? Too loose?

Thanks for your help.

spoke tension isn't determined by load but by the rim manufacturer.
[nor is it determined by spoke count.]

if the rims are of unknown type, you're stuck with just guesstimating
based on other rims that may appear similar for which you have been
able to get the tension data. and if the spoke tension you're using
now proves to be excessive, the rims will crack giving you a perfect
excuse to re-rim with new ones for which you /can/ get the data.

==============================================================

The manual that came with the tension meter reinforces what you said.
The rim strength determines the spoke tension. But I have no way of
knowing what that is. So this is guesswork.

BTW, each wheel has 36 spokes.

In a moment of blinding truth it occured to me that I've got a brand new
Surly LHT sitting here, so I measured its spoke tension. It is about
the same as what I did. So I'm in the right ballpark.

ok, good. but to be pedantic, if the surly's over-tensioned, you'll be
replicating the mistake*. like others here, i think the 100kgf target
is a better place to start. #26 on your gauge is 137kgf which is high
relatively high.

* i say that because some people are mistakenly under the impression
that increasing spoke tension increases wheel strength and thus
over-tension their spokes. even some manufacturers.

Quoted message said:

Bruce who said:

My 2006 Fuji Touring bicycle has aluminum rims of unknown type.
This bike has a reputation for breaking spokes while doing
fully-loaded touring. In fact I broke a couple.

Quoted message said:

So I just replaced them with Wheelsmith 2.0mm spokes and nipples.
But I'm left wondering what should be the proper tension in the
spokes.

You didn't say how many spokes your wheel has and how heavy the rim
is. Therefore, advising how tight to make spokes has no basis. I am
sure that 1.8mm diameter spokes would most likely be better for your
use, assuming you have a reasonable number of spokes.

There's enough information to make a pretty good guess, though. Fuji
Touring, two years old; likely to still have original wheels, which
probably have 36 2.0 mm spokes per wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My Park TM-1 tension meter table has a range of 17 to 28 units, or
51 to 179 kilograms, or 510 to 1790 Newtons.

Quoted message said:

The tension meter says I now have about 26 units on the front
spokes. On the rear it has about 27 on the drive side, and about 21
on the left side.

I don't understand whose tensiometer you are using and why there is
such a large span of acceptable tensions. The spokes need to be tight
enough to not go slack when you statically sit on the saddle with the
bicycle normally loaded. Bouncing on the saddle should not cause
spokes to become slack.

Whose "Park TM-1" tensiometer? RTFP!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are these good amounts of tension for fully-loaded touring? Too
tight? Too loose?

No way to tell what tension is right, as I said.

Advise checking the calibration chart that came with the tensiometer
-- or looking it up on line. If you're pushing your book because it
lists good average tension, try quoting the preferred tension. If you
really need to know what the rim is, well, that information isn't
available, so the book won't help.

To the OP, it sounds to me like you might want to stress-relieve the
spokes, and the tension is probably a bit on the high side.

Pat

Email address works as is.