indoor trainers

Sandy said:

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer, the
original one.

Quoted message said:

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level.  I had simply
never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and the Cycle Ops
was powerful as a noise generator.

Cyclops, just for the record and a possible heads-up for anyone
looking for a cheap/simple used (or maybe NOS?) trainer, made at
least one very quiet "wind" unit.

I heard it being used. It was outside, but the noise level was very
low. Low enough that the owner could use it among the fluid and mag
units in "bring your own" group sessions where wind trainer users were
segregated to "the other side", whatever that was.

I bought one, expecting similar, and returned it for the Mag unit (the
Fluids weren't debugged for certain at that time). In my second floor
apartment kitchen (hard surface), the noise was airplane hangar level.
I can only imagine what it sounded like below. --D-y

Sandy said:

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer [...]
I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Quoted message said:

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using

Cadence is a red herring.

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et
puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer
[...] I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Quoted message said:

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using

Cadence is a red herring.

OK, I want a herringmeter.

From Peder Oxe, please.

Sandy said:

Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et
puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

On Feb 28, 6:29 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer
[...] I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.

Quoted message said:

http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using

Quoted message said:

Cadence is a red herring.

OK, I want a herringmeter.

Just for the halibut?

Sandy said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost all
subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer, the
original one. When I decided to take up residence in the US, I figured the
freight was not worth it, and sold that unit. To its last days with me, I
never had any complaint about its functioning.

Now, in the US, in Maine, where we had record snowfall in December, and
overall for the winter, I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid
Trainer. I have not spent comparable time on it, obviously (Jobst - you OK
with that usage?), but I have some observations I thought to share with
those interested.

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level. I had simply
never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and the Cycle Ops
was powerful as a noise generator. This fluid unit is really very quiet,
including at the higher speeds in a high gear. I did not have to change the
TV audio level, although I admit it became a bit muted by the Elite at
speed.

Second, and this is really hard to distinguish without instruments - I feel
I was loaded a lot more in every gear with the Cycle Ops. I didn't do a lot
of big ring rolling with the old one, and now I can make the move in 15
minutes. This is not a race, it's physical conditioning, and on a 59
year-old frame, carbon based. I think some of the effect is perceptual, in
that the loud fan noise always seemed to be a positive encouragement that I
was really pushing the pedals, where the lower noise level makes me more
reliant on the bike's computer to judge my output.

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using, as this is
the kind of environment where you can try to make adjustments to this factor
and train your muscles to adapt to a more effective personal range. BTW, I
am a lazy European, and we generally don't do marathon sessions on trainers,
having a more temperate climate than the northernmost state outside Alaska.
An hour is plenty.

If anyone knows how one may adjust (increase) the fluid loads, I'd like to
hear from you.

Had no idea you're in the states. 25-30 years ago, I used the Racer
Mate, which was the first wind-load trainer I knew of. Yes, it was
noisy. After that, had a mag-turbo trainer that was much quieter--I
think it was put out by Nashbar or Performance.
After a few years though I started really hating training indoors.
With all that snow, are you doing any x-country skiing?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Sandy said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost all
subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer,

Haven't you heard? The French are not interested in cycling.

I know more than you,

Tom Kunich

Dans le message de news:gkExj.42610$R_5.16789@trnddc08,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Had no idea you're in the states.

So you had to rub it in....

Quoted message said:

25-30 years ago, I used the Racer
Mate, which was the first wind-load trainer I knew of. Yes, it was
noisy. After that, had a mag-turbo trainer that was much quieter--I
think it was put out by Nashbar or Performance.
After a few years though I started really hating training indoors.

I recall reading about Boardman's mania, and others who swear by the tapes
Cycle Ops puts out (and I think they're cool, but not possible). In France,
unless you seek out the mountains and snow, you see very little of it, so
year-round riding is very easy. In fact, it is sometimes difficult to find
that right moment to take the winter break.

Quoted message said:

With all that snow, are you doing any x-country skiing?

Record December snowfall, and all the time I was burdened beyond spare time.

Then January, smaller crises, just relaxed. I really wanted to ski, but it
didn't happen.

February, more snow, rain, sun, melt, everything but good weather, and the
grass is coming through the remaining snow - even the 6 inches we got last
night. I did get out biking one day recently and decided that riding on
sand-laden roads is not much fun. If I should remain here longer, I will
have to straighten out the seasons. But I love to hate the trainer - as
does the new layer of Christmas fat.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Sandy <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Dans le message de news:gkExj.42610$R_5.16789@trnddc08,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et
puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Had no idea you're in the states.

So you had to rub it in....

My apologies - I seldom manage such incoherence. Tried a new beer at lunch.

Sandy

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost
all subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer, the
original one. When I decided to take up residence in the US, I
figured the freight was not worth it, and sold that unit. To its last
days with me, I never had any complaint about its functioning.

Now, in the US, in Maine, where we had record snowfall in December,
and overall for the winter, I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono
Primo Fluid Trainer. I have not spent comparable time on it,
obviously (Jobst - you OK with that usage?), but I have some
observations I thought to share with those interested.

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level. I had
simply never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and the
Cycle Ops was powerful as a noise generator. This fluid unit is
really very quiet, including at the higher speeds in a high gear. I
did not have to change the TV audio level, although I admit it became
a bit muted by the Elite at speed.

Second, and this is really hard to distinguish without instruments - I
feel I was loaded a lot more in every gear with the Cycle Ops. I
didn't do a lot of big ring rolling with the old one, and now I can
make the move in 15 minutes. This is not a race, it's physical
conditioning, and on a 59 year-old frame, carbon based. I think some
of the effect is perceptual, in that the loud fan noise always seemed
to be a positive encouragement that I was really pushing the pedals,
where the lower noise level makes me more reliant on the bike's
computer to judge my output.

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using, as
this is the kind of environment where you can try to make adjustments
to this factor and train your muscles to adapt to a more effective
personal range. BTW, I am a lazy European, and we generally don't do
marathon sessions on trainers, having a more temperate climate than
the northernmost state outside Alaska. An hour is plenty.

If anyone knows how one may adjust (increase) the fluid loads, I'd
like to hear from you.
--
--
Sandy

Is there something wrong with changing gear and having the rear wheel
turn faster at the same cadence? I have a fixed gear track bike on my
trainer so the one gear ratio I have gives a fairly accurate resistance
at 30 mph with a cadence of about 105rpm. At 20 mph it's about 70 rpm
which may be a bit on the low side but I normally do a moderate 1 hour
workout closer to 80rpm.

Phil H

Phil Holman said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost
all subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer, the
original one. When I decided to take up residence in the US, I
figured the freight was not worth it, and sold that unit. To its last
days with me, I never had any complaint about its functioning.

Now, in the US, in Maine, where we had record snowfall in December,
and overall for the winter, I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono
Primo Fluid Trainer. I have not spent comparable time on it,
obviously (Jobst - you OK with that usage?), but I have some
observations I thought to share with those interested.

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level. I had
simply never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and the
Cycle Ops was powerful as a noise generator. This fluid unit is
really very quiet, including at the higher speeds in a high gear. I
did not have to change the TV audio level, although I admit it became
a bit muted by the Elite at speed.

Second, and this is really hard to distinguish without instruments - I
feel I was loaded a lot more in every gear with the Cycle Ops. I
didn't do a lot of big ring rolling with the old one, and now I can
make the move in 15 minutes. This is not a race, it's physical
conditioning, and on a 59 year-old frame, carbon based. I think some
of the effect is perceptual, in that the loud fan noise always seemed
to be a positive encouragement that I was really pushing the pedals,
where the lower noise level makes me more reliant on the bike's
computer to judge my output.

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using, as
this is the kind of environment where you can try to make adjustments
to this factor and train your muscles to adapt to a more effective
personal range. BTW, I am a lazy European, and we generally don't do
marathon sessions on trainers, having a more temperate climate than
the northernmost state outside Alaska. An hour is plenty.

If anyone knows how one may adjust (increase) the fluid loads, I'd
like to hear from you.
--
--
Sandy

Is there something wrong with changing gear and having the rear wheel
turn faster at the same cadence? I have a fixed gear track bike on my
trainer so the one gear ratio I have gives a fairly accurate resistance
at 30 mph with a cadence of about 105rpm. At 20 mph it's about 70 rpm
which may be a bit on the low side but I normally do a moderate 1 hour
workout closer to 80rpm.

If you aren't leaving 30-foot long skidmarks from your indoor training
sessions, you're just jacking off.

Aside from that, what you need to do is get a remote-controlled constant-
temperature cryo-bath with a circulating pump. Jacket the fluid shell of
the fluid trainer and run the constant temperature fluid from the bath
through the jacket. By adjusting the temperature of the fluid surrounding
the fluid trainer (via the remote control on the bath), you will be able to
adjust the viscosity of the fluid in it, unless it is some bizarre non-
Newtonian fluid like elephant spooge, colder temperatures will mean more
viscosity and therefore more resistance. Heat the bath up and it will get
easier.

Decent remote controlled (or computer controlled) constant-temperature
recirculating baths can be had for around $10,000 (US), engineering a
cooling jacket for the trainer out of a big hunk of aluminum (titanium
would be better for anti-corrosion) might be another $10k, the Master's
Fattie brag coefficient for going to all that trouble when you could just
change gears and get the same effect, priceless.

There are some things money shouldn't buy, I'm here to point them out.

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/64270597/19c41ad0

--
Bill Asher

William Asher said:

Aside from that, what you need to do is get a remote-controlled constant-
temperature cryo-bath with a circulating pump. Jacket the fluid shell of
the fluid trainer and run the constant temperature fluid from the bath
through the jacket. By adjusting the temperature of the fluid surrounding
the fluid trainer (via the remote control on the bath), you will be able to
adjust the viscosity of the fluid in it, unless it is some bizarre non-
Newtonian fluid like elephant spooge, colder temperatures will mean more
viscosity and therefore more resistance. Heat the bath up and it will get
easier.

Decent remote controlled (or computer controlled) constant-temperature
recirculating baths can be had for around $10,000 (US), engineering a
cooling jacket for the trainer out of a big hunk of aluminum (titanium
would be better for anti-corrosion) might be another $10k, the Master's
Fattie brag coefficient for going to all that trouble when you could just
change gears and get the same effect, priceless.

There are some things money shouldn't buy, I'm here to point them out.

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/64270597/19c41ad0

Speaking of NZ, beer, and cooling:
http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

Sandy said:

Dans le message denews:gkExj.42610$R_5.16789@trnddc08,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Had no idea you're in the states.

So you had to rub it in....

Quoted message said:

25-30 years ago, I used the Racer
Mate, which was the first wind-load trainer I knew of.  Yes, it was
noisy.  After that, had a mag-turbo trainer that was much quieter--I
think it was put out by Nashbar or Performance.
After a few years though I started really hating training indoors.

I recall reading about Boardman's mania, and others who swear by the tapes
Cycle Ops puts out (and I think they're cool, but not possible).  In France,
unless you seek out the mountains and snow, you see very little of it, so
year-round riding is very easy.  In fact, it is sometimes difficult to find
that right moment to take the winter break.

Quoted message said:

With all that snow, are you doing any x-country skiing?

Record December snowfall, and all the time I was burdened beyond spare time.

Then January, smaller crises, just relaxed.  I really wanted to ski, butit
didn't happen.

February, more snow, rain, sun, melt, everything but good weather, and the
grass is coming through the remaining snow - even the 6 inches we got last
night.  I did get out biking one day recently and decided that riding on
sand-laden roads is not much fun. If I should remain here longer, I will
have to straighten out the seasons.  But I love to hate the trainer - as
does the new layer of Christmas fat.

--
Sandy

Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là
quand elle arrivera.

The French cycling magazines all unequivocally state that it is bad to
ride a trainer more than 45 minutes. Of course, they don't give a
reason, since it's totally false. I ride my trainer a lot, it beats
getting seriously annoyed in traffic, the longest this year was 2
hours.

I had a CycleOps fluid trainer, but I ended up not liking it that much
(though it was much quieter than the previous Blackburn magnetic
model). When the CycleOps died last year (no more resistance) I got a
Tacx Satori, which has been working well. It is easy to stow away and
the quick release features are good. I can get good resistance with
it, though the mag resistance takes getting used to as it is linear.
Problems with the Tacx are that the quick releases don't work
perfectly, they get out of adjustment when loosened (they should have
rubberized bolts), the Blackburn did that better, and the cable
control is not very convenient. Oh, one time, I happened to place the
cable next to my tire and it wore through the casing, leaving fine
black dust all over my wife's beautiful carpet.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Dans le message denews:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et
puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

On Feb 28, 6:29 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer
> [...] I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.
http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/
> I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using
Cadence is a red herring.

OK, I want a herringmeter.

Just for the halibut?

For shame, Sir! You have besmirched the dignity of this august body with
your reckless punditry!

Harumph!

Quoted message said:

Speaking of NZ, beer, and cooling:
http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

It is a lot more efficient to burn less of the propane and use the power
generated by the turbine to bleed a lot of that compressed propane into an
expander, where it will cool. I think this is how a propane-powered
refrigerator operates. He would get like triple bonus points from me if he
had figured out a totally sick way to get a hydrogen-powered refrigetor/jet
turbine to work since hydrogen has a negative J/T coefficient and heats on
expansion.

--
Bill Asher

Fred Fredburger said:

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Dans le message
denews:[email hidden].
com, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

> On Feb 28, 6:29 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer
>> [...] I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.
> http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/
>> I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using
> Cadence is a red herring.
OK, I want a herringmeter.

Just for the halibut?

For shame, Sir! You have besmirched the dignity of this august body
with your reckless punditry!

Harumph!

Stop carping.

--
Bill Asher

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Phil Holman <piholmanc@yourservice> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost
all subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer, the
original one. When I decided to take up residence in the US, I
figured the freight was not worth it, and sold that unit. To its
last days with me, I never had any complaint about its functioning.

Now, in the US, in Maine, where we had record snowfall in December,
and overall for the winter, I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono
Primo Fluid Trainer. I have not spent comparable time on it,
obviously (Jobst - you OK with that usage?), but I have some
observations I thought to share with those interested.

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level. I had
simply never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and
the Cycle Ops was powerful as a noise generator. This fluid unit is
really very quiet, including at the higher speeds in a high gear. I
did not have to change the TV audio level, although I admit it became
a bit muted by the Elite at speed.

Second, and this is really hard to distinguish without instruments -
I feel I was loaded a lot more in every gear with the Cycle Ops. I
didn't do a lot of big ring rolling with the old one, and now I can
make the move in 15 minutes. This is not a race, it's physical
conditioning, and on a 59 year-old frame, carbon based. I think some
of the effect is perceptual, in that the loud fan noise always seemed
to be a positive encouragement that I was really pushing the pedals,
where the lower noise level makes me more reliant on the bike's
computer to judge my output.

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using, as
this is the kind of environment where you can try to make adjustments
to this factor and train your muscles to adapt to a more effective
personal range. BTW, I am a lazy European, and we generally don't do
marathon sessions on trainers, having a more temperate climate than
the northernmost state outside Alaska. An hour is plenty.

If anyone knows how one may adjust (increase) the fluid loads, I'd
like to hear from you.
--
--
Sandy

Is there something wrong with changing gear and having the rear wheel
turn faster at the same cadence? I have a fixed gear track bike on my
trainer so the one gear ratio I have gives a fairly accurate
resistance at 30 mph with a cadence of about 105rpm. At 20 mph it's
about 70 rpm which may be a bit on the low side but I normally do a
moderate 1 hour workout closer to 80rpm.

Phil H

Actually, what you think should happen with my trainer is exactly what
doesn't. At least not in the proportion that I used to get on the wind
trainer. The jumps are not as significant, and rolling along in 53x13 is
too easy by a long shot. But thanks for your comment, as it targets my
specific disappointment.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Phil Holman <piholmanc@yourservice> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost
all subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer,
the
original one. When I decided to take up residence in the US, I
figured the freight was not worth it, and sold that unit. To its
last days with me, I never had any complaint about its functioning.

Now, in the US, in Maine, where we had record snowfall in December,
and overall for the winter, I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono
Primo Fluid Trainer. I have not spent comparable time on it,
obviously (Jobst - you OK with that usage?), but I have some
observations I thought to share with those interested.

First, foremost, cardinal in interest is the low noise level. I had
simply never tried anything but a wind trainer over the years, and
the Cycle Ops was powerful as a noise generator. This fluid unit is
really very quiet, including at the higher speeds in a high gear. I
did not have to change the TV audio level, although I admit it
became
a bit muted by the Elite at speed.

Second, and this is really hard to distinguish without instruments -
I feel I was loaded a lot more in every gear with the Cycle Ops. I
didn't do a lot of big ring rolling with the old one, and now I can
make the move in 15 minutes. This is not a race, it's physical
conditioning, and on a 59 year-old frame, carbon based. I think
some
of the effect is perceptual, in that the loud fan noise always
seemed
to be a positive encouragement that I was really pushing the pedals,
where the lower noise level makes me more reliant on the bike's
computer to judge my output.

I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using, as
this is the kind of environment where you can try to make
adjustments
to this factor and train your muscles to adapt to a more effective
personal range. BTW, I am a lazy European, and we generally don't
do
marathon sessions on trainers, having a more temperate climate than
the northernmost state outside Alaska. An hour is plenty.

If anyone knows how one may adjust (increase) the fluid loads, I'd
like to hear from you.
--
--
Sandy

Is there something wrong with changing gear and having the rear wheel
turn faster at the same cadence? I have a fixed gear track bike on my
trainer so the one gear ratio I have gives a fairly accurate
resistance at 30 mph with a cadence of about 105rpm. At 20 mph it's
about 70 rpm which may be a bit on the low side but I normally do a
moderate 1 hour workout closer to 80rpm.

Phil H

Actually, what you think should happen with my trainer is exactly what
doesn't. At least not in the proportion that I used to get on the
wind trainer. The jumps are not as significant, and rolling along in
53x13 is too easy by a long shot. But thanks for your comment, as it
targets my specific disappointment.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Sounds like there is something wrong with that unit. You're in a 53x13
and its too easy!! You may want to contact the manufacturer and get the
spec. on the resistance.

Phil H

William Asher said:

Fred Fredburger said:

Quoted message said:

On Feb 28, 10:06 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Dans le message
> denews:[email hidden].
> com, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
> réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
>> On Feb 28, 6:29 am, "Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer
>>> [...] I just got a new trainer - Elite Chrono Primo Fluid Trainer.
>> http://www.geocities.com/almost_fast/trainerpower/
>>> I only wish I had a cadence function in the computer I am using
>> Cadence is a red herring.
> OK, I want a herringmeter.
Just for the halibut?

For shame, Sir! You have besmirched the dignity of this august body
with your reckless punditry!

Harumph!

Stop carping.

It's my schtick! Without it, I just flounder around with nothing to say.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Sandy said:

I am not writing this as a recommendation, just observations, almost all
subjective.

In the past, for about 15 years, I used a Cycle Ops wind trainer,

Haven't you heard? The French are not interested in cycling.

I know more than you,

Tom Kunich

612 MILES IN JANUARY!!!!!!!!

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?