Consumer Warning!!

Hitchy said:

....don't disagree with that, but we've already established that price, regardless of service, is the driver....that'd be why 80 % of the bike shops around are struggling to make a quid

hmm, I put a deposit on a frame just this week and didn't go for the cheapest price (could have saved @ $600 buying from US). I went for the local place that offered me the best service - a good fit and an offer to build the bike for free (in lieu of a discount).

They seem to be doing quite well. I don't really care if poor businesses close down - they usually only have themselves to blame.

I'm happy to support my lbs when their service deserves it, but I'd be an idiot to get ripped off every time I need a tire or tube. Would you pay more tax than you need to?

/k

kakman said:

hmm, I put a deposit on a frame...

Key word here is "I". You, as an individual made a conscious choice. But for the mass out there, the majority of the money still follow the best price and reasonable service.

sogood said:

Key word here is "I". You, as an individual made a conscious choice. But for the mass out there, the majority of the money still follow the best price and reasonable service.

True, but that is the art of business; be you a bike shop, a plumber, a lawyer or a dentist. You need to provide things that others don't, provide a service level worth paying for and stop trying to compete when you can't.

If I can change a tube / tyre, I don't want to pay a service factor. However, others can't / don't even know which is the correct tube to use. They need the service and are usually happy to pay for it.

Having said that, I will often buy a tube for nearly double the price of PBK etc. because I go in, spend my $10 - $20 bucks, have a chat and use that opportunity to ask some advice on something I am unsure of. I get my tube, tyre levers whatever, they get my $$$, everyone is happy. For the $10 bucks extra, I get a bit of inside info, advice etc.

I don't understand why a bike shop would want to chase the K-Mart end of the market. They want champaign and they want to pay beer prices. Let them go to K-Mart, buy [censored] then learn their lesson and blame K-Mart (not you). They'll probably come to you to fix the old or get a better one anyway.

scotty72 said:

True, but that is the art of business; be you a bike shop, a plumber, a lawyer or a dentist. You need to provide things that others don't, provide a service level worth paying for and stop trying to compete when you can't.

It indeed is an art isn't it? But in order to be good and be able to attract premium paying customers, you have to be really good. And not all proprietors can be like that. So based on law of averages, a big percentage of them won't be in the running for that business model. Also at the end of the day, there are only so many customers who are seeing the additional value of LBS, it won't be enough to support every premium seeking LBS.

kakman said:

I don't really care if poor businesses close down - they usually only have themselves to blame.

/k

which I'm sure you can attest too with your many years of running a small business?.....you've actually investigated the economics of importing your own frame?...I have, many times & by the time you cover all your bases, it's hardly worth it. By the tiem you source the frame, pay for shipping, insurance, duty, GST....then all you have to worry about is the warranty issue....so I doubt your noble sacrifice of sourcing a frame locally was really that much of a financial impost on you

sogood said:

It indeed is an art isn't it? But in order to be good and be able to attract premium paying customers, you have to be really good. And not all proprietors can be like that. So based on law of averages, a big percentage of them won't be in the running for that business model. Also at the end of the day, there are only so many customers who are seeing the additional value of LBS, it won't be enough to support every premium seeking LBS.

That is perhaps the reason that, despite the boom in bicycle sales in recent years, there are dozens of lbs that have fallen by the wayside. In fact, suburban bike shops in every suburb are now a thing of the past, they are bigger and far apart.

However, some shops that have a reputation (at least in the circles I ride) for being pretty pricey have survived (and presumably florished) because of their reputation for good service.

I think that more customers than you think appreciate, and will pay, for service - WHERE THE PAYMENT IS WARRANTED.

scotty72 said:

.

I don't understand why a bike shop would want to chase the K-Mart end of the market. They want champaign and they want to pay beer prices. Let them go to K-Mart, buy [censored] then learn their lesson and blame K-Mart (not you). They'll probably come to you to fix the old or get a better one anyway.

My mate runs an LBS.....anyone who comes in with a $99 Big W or Kmart bike wanting it fixed after it fell apart....gets charged an 'idiot tax' on top of the service. Buy a $99 bike by all means....ride it till it dies, then chuck it away...a decent service will cost you more than the bike!

scotty72 said:

That is perhaps the reason that, despite the boom in bicycle sales in recent years, there are dozens of lbs that have fallen by the wayside. In fact, suburban bike shops in every suburb are now a thing of the past, they are bigger and far apart.

However, some shops that have a reputation (at least in the circles I ride) for being pretty pricey have survived (and presumably florished) because of their reputation for good service.

I think that more customers than you think appreciate, and will pay, for service - WHERE THE PAYMENT IS WARRANTED.

No... no they won't & don't. As I've stated, my mate owns an LBS, I've worked there on & off for years....the problem is price. Take tyres for instance, obviously I can get mine at cost.....which is 20% more than PBK will have 'em on my doorstep for....The LBS CAN'T compete against that....if you wanna understand why LBS's are failing, it's beacuse they simply can't compete in the lower end of the market with 'mall retailers' & further up the chain with PBK.....remember the LBS has to cahrge & pay GST on every item...provided my PBK order is under $1000, I don't have to pay Duty or GST on anything....there's a 10% saving straight away

Hitchy said:

My mate runs an LBS.....anyone who comes in with a $99 Big W or Kmart bike wanting it fixed after it fell apart....gets charged an 'idiot tax' on top of the service. Buy a $99 bike by all means....ride it till it dies, then chuck it away...a decent service will cost you more than the bike!

Exactly,

But the higher end of the market knows (or should) know better - we are more likely to screw ourselves with bling than getting caught with cheap [censored].

Trying to 'trick' us that selling us a tube has a service component is treating us like [censored].

Perhaps you could advertise a grab it and run price and a fitted price. I'm sure many people would be happy to pay for fitting. My wide would were I not around (in fact she was one of the last of that dying breed who would drive around looking for a petrol station where they actually came out and charged you extra to fill it for you - until they finally died out - now she makes me do it)

But, trying to chase the K-Mart crowd? People go to K-Mart to buy [censored] because they are tight-arses.

Scotty

Hitchy said:

No... no they won't & don't. As I've stated, my mate owns an LBS, I've worked there on & off for years....the problem is price. Take tyres for instance, obviously I can get mine at cost.....which is 20% more than PBK will have 'em on my doorstep for....The LBS CAN'T compete against that....if you wanna understand why LBS's are failing, it's beacuse they simply can't compete in the lower end of the market with 'mall retailers' & further up the chain with PBK.....remember the LBS has to cahrge & pay GST on every item...provided my PBK order is under $1000, I don't have to pay Duty or GST on anything....there's a 10% saving straight away

Then he's stupid to compete with that.

He needs to compete on something PBK can't. Friendliness, fitting, convienience, whatever - offer people a coffee when they walk through the door.

You're right, he's never going to sell a tyre cheaper than PBK - so sell something else.

My other half is a dentist. Part of her business is in private practice. Very competitive business. She has to sell more than fixing teeth (others will do it far cheaper than she is willing to). She sells comfort, reassuramce and sits down with a coffee to chat about teeth. That is, she takes her time, does things very carefully makes the patient feel at home. As a consequence, she sees fewer patients (so has fewer opportunities to bill). However, she is selling something that few others are willing to provide (care and comfort) and she now has a long waiting list. She charges much more but people are willing to pay for a trip to the dentist that doesn't make them [censored] their pants.

Some people wont pay. Never will. They would prefer spend their cash at the TAB. Would rather say - just pull it - or will put up with the agony and then [censored] about the public hospital waiting lists. Bottom line, she ignores them. Doesn't sell to them. Doesn't see the point in chasing them or complaining that they wont pay up. They just wont.

scotty72 said:

But, trying to chase the K-Mart crowd? People go to K-Mart to buy [censored] because they are tight-arses.

That's not always true. It's can also be a value judgement and status issue. For the same Bonds undies, some people would buy it at a higher price at David Jones/Myers and would not even consider walking into a K-Mart store for some savings. There are tight-arses, big spenders, but the great majority are value shoppers.

sogood said:

That's not always true. It's can also be a value judgement and status issue. For the same Bonds undies, some people would buy it at a higher price at David Jones/Myers and would not even consider walking into a K-Mart store for some savings. There are tight-arses, big spenders, but the great majority are value shoppers.

I'm talking about those who buy cheap [censored] knowing it is inferior. Not buing exactly the same item cheaper.

Scott

scotty72 said:

I'm talking about those who buy cheap [censored] knowing it is inferior. Not buing exactly the same item cheaper.

Not sure about that. Last year I bought my son a kiddie bike at one of the major LBSs in the city. Due to time pressure, I had to rush in for the purchase and didn't get a chance to shop around. As it turned out, it was not much different to those sold at K-Mart at a significantly lower price. It was heavy and basic. The only thing different is the brand label and a bit of self-assembly required by the K-Mart product. And as much as we like to think K-Mart bikes are [censored] (some cycling snobbery here), the fact of the matter is that there have been plenty of people who have successfully used similar standard bikes on long tours.

sogood said:

As it turned out, it was not much different to those sold at K-Mart at a significantly lower price. It was heavy and basic. The only thing different is the brand label and a bit of self-assembly required by the K-Mart product. And as much as we like to think K-Mart bikes are [censored] (some cycling snobbery here), the fact of the matter is that there have been plenty of people who have successfully used similar standard bikes on long tours.

kiddie bikes are fine to just buy cheap - there's bugger all difference between kiddie KMart and Kiddie LBS.

This week I also bought my 4yo a bike from BigW for $68 bucks. Can't believe they can make them for this. It will be fine until he gets old enough for my 9yo's Giant. I don't feel guilty at all that I bought a Cervelo in the same week 🙂

/k

Hitchy said:

which I'm sure you can attest too with your many years of running a small business?

um, yes actually.

Hitchy said:

.....you've actually investigated the economics of importing your own frame?...I have, many times & by the time you cover all your bases, it's hardly worth it. By the tiem you source the frame, pay for shipping, insurance, duty, GST....then all you have to worry about is the warranty issue....so I doubt your noble sacrifice of sourcing a frame locally was really that much of a financial impost on you

I'm not quite following you here - now you seem to be attacking me because I bought it from my LBS. 😕

As I stated, I could have saved around $600 due to some very advantageous circumstances. However, I weighed that up against the hassle of warranty (even though I doubt it will be an issue) and the lack of the personal touch. I wanted to be fitted properly and wanted to be able to talk to them (I'm building up from a frame - not buying a complete bike)

In the past 3 years I have bought 3 bikes (not counting a kiddie bike) - 1 for me, 1 for the wife and 1 for my daughter - all from the SAME LBS. This is because they treated me well and I liked the service. It was NOT the cheapest store but it was the one with whom I was most impressed. Sadly they didn't stock the (new) brand I wanted so I had to find a new shop. I can be the loyalist customer you've ever seen, but my loyalty needs to be earned.

/k

kakman said:

kiddie bikes are fine to just buy cheap - there's bugger all difference between kiddie KMart and Kiddie LBS.

This week I also bought my 4yo a bike from BigW for $68 bucks. Can't believe they can make them for this. It will be fine until he gets old enough for my 9yo's Giant. I don't feel guilty at all that I bought a Cervelo in the same week 🙂

/k

I don't buy the argument that because your kids are young, you can sacrifice quality and safety.

Unlinke many, I don't want my kid riding a time bomb. So we bought her a high quality children's road bike. Paid towards $1000 for it. For that, we got 105 level components, a quality frame, she was measured and the bike adjusted.

I value my kid

Scotty

scotty72 said:

I don't buy the argument that because your kids are young, you can sacrifice quality and safety.

Unlinke many, I don't want my kid riding a time bomb. So we bought her a high quality children's road bike. Paid towards $1000 for it. For that, we got 105 level components, a quality frame, she was measured and the bike adjusted.

I value my kid

Hope you're not suggesting I don't value my kids. 😠

As you haven't seen the bike you can't really comment on its safety or quality. If you feel more comfortable spending $1000 that's great but it doesn't necessarily mean the cheaper bikes are any less safe. I love buying stuff for the kids but I'm wary of the "you have to spend this $### to be safe" sales pitch. As with adult bikes, your quality frame probably came from the same factory as my consumer frame. I'd rather spend the extra money on a decent helmet.

My 4 yo is currently riding his bike around the house - that's *inside* the house. The bike he has is way better than I would have expected and is the equal to the bikes the LBS were selling for about 3 times the amount. I'm not saying it's components are as good as a $1000 high end kiddie bike, but he ain't going to know the difference between 105 and pressed steel back pedal brakes. I certainly don't see it as a time bomb - at the end of the day they still have to conform to the Aussie standards.

If the only safe kids bikes were the $1000 ones, there'd be very few kids riding bikes.

/k

kakman said:

Hope you're not suggesting I don't value my kids. 😠

As you haven't seen the bike you can't really comment on its safety or quality. If you feel more comfortable spending $1000 that's great but it doesn't necessarily mean the cheaper bikes are any less safe. I love buying stuff for the kids but I'm wary of the "you have to spend this $### to be safe" sales pitch. As with adult bikes, your quality frame probably came from the same factory as my consumer frame. I'd rather spend the extra money on a decent helmet.

My 4 yo is currently riding his bike around the house - that's *inside* the house. The bike he has is way better than I would have expected and is the equal to the bikes the LBS were selling for about 3 times the amount. I'm not saying it's components are as good as a $1000 high end kiddie bike, but he ain't going to know the difference between 105 and pressed steel back pedal brakes. I certainly don't see it as a time bomb - at the end of the day they still have to conform to the Aussie standards.

If the only safe kids bikes were the $1000 ones, there'd be very few kids riding bikes.

/k

There is a difference between a kids bike and a toddler bike.

I mean, if you're gonna have a 8 - 12 year old jumping around or racing around the neighbourhood then yes, I think K-Mart bike is a form of infanticide.

I toddler ridong around the house ain't gonna put those pressures and strains on it.

I've seen the next door neighbour's (a 12 y.o girl) Toy-R-Us bike fold up from under her after she tried to stop with brakes that failed, causing her to hit a wall. I looked at the wreck. Very shoddy bike indeed.

So if you're talking about a rough kid or an average teen (esp boy), then K-Mart can equal child abuse.

If that happened to a Trek, Giant, Avanti or other well known brand with a Kid bike, I'd be very, very surprised.

Scotty

Scotty

Buying quality bikes for kids can be very expensive. At their growth rate, you'd have to change frame/stem every 12 months if not 6 months. :eek:

scotty72 said:

There is a difference between a kids bike and a toddler bike.

No probs, we agree. My 9yo daughter rides a really nice Giant with a very solid frame, nice gears and good brakes. It will get handed down to my son when the time is right and she'll get a new one

/k