L4 Every day ??

obRee said:

I recently tried a new pair of "recovery socks" and the next day felt great after a 2 x 20min L4 session, so tried to do another the next day. I have now done 5 days of 2x20min L4 with power at the same level and sometimes even higher than day 1. Any thoughts on the viability of L4 sessions on a daily basis.

Well, it's been done. You're not the first person to try this. I sometimes find higher power on the second day of back-to-back L4 days. However, I don't know how sustainable it is day after day. Many coaches don't recommend more than 2-3 days per week of L4 because sooner or later you are going to get bored.

obRee said:

Any thoughts on the viability of L4 sessions on a daily basis.

Where in L4 were the sessions done?

I agree it can be done (certainly if the power is towards the low-end of L4), but the issue I'd have is that a 2x20 session just doesn't generate much TSS (~68-83 points incl. warmup and cooldown, depending on the intensity within L4) or contribute much towards building one's CTL if continued for very long.

So, in addition to all the thoughts about whether this is really the best way (or even a *good* way) to train, I'd be concerned that it wouldn't give me enough training load even if I were to ride like that 7 days a week.

frenchyge said:

Where in L4 were the sessions done?

I agree it can be done (certainly if the power is towards the low-end of L4), but the issue I'd have is that a 2x20 session just doesn't generate much TSS (~68-83 points incl. warmup and cooldown, depending on the intensity within L4) or contribute much towards building one's CTL if continued for very long.

So, in addition to all the thoughts about whether this is really the best way (or even a *good* way) to train, I'd be concerned that it wouldn't give me enough training load even if I were to ride like that 7 days a week.

Hmmm...so you don't think that a "flat" CTL, but with an increasing FTP is an effective training regimen?

Tom Anhalt said:

Hmmm...so you don't think that a "flat" CTL, but with an increasing FTP is an effective training regimen?

Flat at 60 CTL or flat at 120 CTL? 😉

Tom Anhalt said:

Hmmm...so you don't think that a "flat" CTL, but with an increasing FTP is an effective training regimen?

You know, I'm going to find this out myself.

I came into the new year with much, much more CTL than I wanted to have (I screwed up my planning) but with fairly low (for me) FTP. So in January and February I've been keeping a tight lid on things (which isn't hard to do when you are riding mostly indoors) with week over week TSS load increases anywhere from zero to 50 and just focusing on L4/FTP growth and recovery rides. In March, I will "let the dogs out of the house" and grow some CTL (along with some L5) in preparation for road racing in April and May. Kirk Willett would like the "scattering the plot" bit at the end. 😉 🙂

I don't know how this is going to turn out but my gut instinct is that it's going to work out fine.

Piotr said:

Flat at 60 CTL or flat at 120 CTL? 😉

Yes 🙂

obRee said:

... Any thoughts on the viability of L4 sessions on a daily basis.

Concerns about CTL and training load aside, I've gotta believe you've underestimated your FTP if you can bang out solid L4 sessions five days in a row. Yeah I suppose it's possible at the lower end of L4 but sooner or later that's going to get tough mentally or physically if you stick to that plan. Remember, the best training mix in the world is a failure if you burn out on it and hang up the bike, can you really stick with that program for the weeks or months it takes to see real fitness gains?

-Dave

I've gotta believe you've underestimated your FTP if you can bang out solid L4 sessions five days in a row.
-Dave[/QUOTE]I did a 20min test this past Saturday and got 363w, ie FTP of 345w. I have been doing L4 sessions at 340 and above everyday since then. Today was 349w and 348w, Having said that I relooked at the Test file and saw my Avg H/R was only 155 and I can usually TT at low 160's so maybe not as hard as I thought ??

Piotr said:

Flat at 60 CTL or flat at 120 CTL? 😉

'zactly. 🙂

Of course, it'll take several months of doing that workout every single day to reach that level, so... I guess I'll stand by my comment. Still, that'd be *my* concern based on the type of events I'm training for, and not necessarily a concern for the OP since we don't have the necessary details there.

Quoted post said:

I did a 20min test this past Saturday and got 363w, ie FTP of 345w. ... my Avg H/R was only 155 and I can usually TT at low 160's so maybe not as hard as I thought ??

Another argument for using something other than the 20 minute *0.95 method for estimating FTP. That method assumes among other things that you've gone absolutely as hard as possible for 20 minutes. There's a lot of reasons not to blindly trust the 95% of 20 minutes method including your particular AWC to CP relationship (check velo-fit.comcritical power.pdfOpen ↗ if that doesn't make sense) but based on how you felt during the 20 minute test and how you've performed in the week since it seems safe to say your FTP is a bit higher than you've estimated.

I've done 3 day blocks of pure L4 (~95% of FTP) when I was well rested and that third day was really hard to finish. I can't imagine 5 straight days and if I managed that I doubt I'd be considering repeating that week after week.

I also agree with Frenchyge and Piotr, ~70 TSS per day, 5 days a week and say 2 on bike rest days at ~35 TSS and you'd be getting 420 TSS per week, keep that up for 3 or more months and your CTL will approach 60 TSS/day. That's pretty low, especially if you're targeting longer events in the higher categories which seems likely based on your FTP estimate.

Good luck,
-Dave

frenchyge said:

'zactly. 🙂

Joking aside, let's remember that properly determined FTP is a 1 hr TT. Let's also remember that CTL is the capacity to train ("the more you train, the more you can train"😉. Having established that, I believe that a 1 hr TT at 60 CTL and 1 hr TT at 120 CTL are two different beasts. It is my contention that doing 2 x 20's does not adequately prepare one for a 1 hr TT (an FTP test proper).

Last year I could not hold 95% of CP20 for 1 hr. No way! It could be that I'm a bit anaerobically inclined thus skewing my CP20 result, but it is also likely that my relatively low CTL didn't allow me to finish a 1 hr effort at my projected FTP.

Thus I conclude that a higher CTL raises the FTP ceiling, e.g. the possibility of attaining a higher FTP, by teaching our bodies to cope with that type of effort much better. That my story, but I'm open to correction. 🙂

daveryanwyoming said:

I also agree with Frenchyge and Piotr, ~70 TSS per day

Well jeepers Dave, give the guy some warm-up and cool down time, will ya? 🙂 40 minutes at 1.0 IF is going to be 66 TSS but I have not done a 2x20 (or 4x10 or 5x8) session indoors this winter that has come out less than 90 TSS due to the warm-up and cool down and other screwing around.

Steve_B said:

Well jeepers Dave, give the guy some warm-up and cool down time, will ya? 🙂 40 minutes at 1.0 IF is going to be 66 TSS but I have not done an 2x20 (or 4x10 or 5x8) session indoors this winter that has come out less than 90 TSS due to the warm-up and cool down and other screwing around.

I just get out of a hot bath, jump on the bike, and start my interval. 😄

Piotr said:

It is my contention that doing 2 x 20's does not adequately prepare one for a 1 hr TT (an FTP test proper).

When I was focusing on 40k TT's years ago, I noticed that the transition from 2x20's to a full hour practice effort was not that hard but there was some adjustment to be made. Of course, my CTL was stupid high at that point too. 😉

Piotr said:

Thus I conclude that a higher CTL raises the FTP ceiling, e.g. the possibility of attaining a higher FTP, by teaching our bodies to cope with that type of effort much better. That my story, but I'm open to correction. 🙂

To quote Rick Murphy, "FTP is how fast you can go, CTL is how long you can go fast."

Steve_B said:

To quote Rick Murphy, "FTP is how fast you can go, CTL is how long you can go fast."

Now I remember seeing that quote. Could've saved a lot of typing time. 🙄🙂

Steve_B said:

Well jeepers Dave, give the guy some warm-up and cool down time, will ya? 🙂 40 minutes at 1.0 IF is going to be 66 TSS but I have not done a 2x20 (or 4x10 or 5x8) session indoors this winter that has come out less than 90 TSS due to the warm-up and cool down and other screwing around.

Then you're a lot more efficient with your training time than I am. First I highly doubt he's hitting an IF of 1.0 for five straight days of 2x20 work and TSS falls fast as you drop IF. But really you're hitting 90 TSS for a 2x20 L4 session with WU, CD and rest? I generally end up with something in the 60 to 80 range depending on how I warmup, cooldown and what I hold during the efforts. You must warmup and cooldown a bit higher than I do or do you warmup a lot longer and get more than an hour total?

Anyway, I still don't think a 5 day a week L4 strategy makes a lot of sense for many riders but to each their own.....

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Then you're a lot more efficient with your training time than I am. First I highly doubt he's hitting an IF of 1.0 for five straight days of 2x20 work and TSS falls fast as you drop IF. But really you're hitting 90 TSS for a 2x20 L4 session with WU, CD and rest? I generally end up with something in the 60 to 80 range depending on how I warmup, cooldown and what I hold during the efforts. You must warmup and cooldown a bit higher than I do or do you warmup a lot longer and get more than an hour total?

Anyway, I still don't think a 5 day a week L4 strategy makes a lot of sense for many riders but to each their own.....

-Dave

I've done five but at least one was LL4. Personally I'm on four pretty consistently (about 3-4 hrs weekly) this year - up from three last year. I'll cut that back to three once I can get outside again. Two is just a tease 😄

Didn't Dr Andy C do really well in some fairly longish races despite and average training time of on 1 hr per day. I know thats not the perfect training scenario but it can work, can't it. I don't have a power meter so don't fully understand CTL, ATL etc nevertheless the topic is quite interesting. Would a diet of purely 2 x 20's with perhaps one 2hr ride on the weekend mean you could still be competitive in a 2-3hr hour race?

Ade Merckx said:

Didn't Dr Andy C do really well in some fairly longish races despite and average training time of on 1 hr per day. I know thats not the perfect training scenario but it can work, can't it. I don't have a power meter so don't fully understand CTL, ATL etc nevertheless the topic is quite interesting. Would a diet of purely 2 x 20's with perhaps one 2hr ride on the weekend mean you could still be competitive in a 2-3hr hour race?

Yes, I read that too, but we may be getting into a discussion of 3 years vs. 20 years of racing experience vs. no experience w/pure talent. 🙂 I went to a talk with Max Testa where he reminisced about young Oscar Freire not touching a bike until early season and still winning early season races. 😕