Carbo loading

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.

I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.

I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.

At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my
hourly carb deficit.

I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.

Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.

So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

Joseph

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I remember reading that the average person has 2200 to 2500 calories stored.
Now, if you are training hard and not replacing them then you will have
less. If you carbo load then you have the potential to increase this
number.

As far as racing goes, the rule of thumb I use is that you want to replace
between 20g of carbohydrate (training) and 60 g of carbohydrate (racing) per
hour. This seems to be the limit you can absorb... but a recent study found
that having different size molecules could dramatically increase this
(several types of sugar).

You are right to think about this, but don't over think it. Use your long
rides to experiment with what products and what amounts work best for you.
I think it is backwards to base your pace on the calories you have, instead
I would base my calories on my pace.

You should check out some 24 hour mountain bike racing forums and sites
because they have the same concerns. Hammer has a lot of information as
well and some nice products, but go a little overboad in my opinion.

TM said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.

Quoted message said:

I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.

Quoted message said:

I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.

Quoted message said:

At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my
hourly carb deficit.

Quoted message said:

I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?

Quoted message said:

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.

Quoted message said:

So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I remember reading that the average person has 2200 to 2500 calories stored.
Now, if you are training hard and not replacing them then you will have
less.  If you carbo load then you have the potential to increase this
number.

As far as racing goes, the rule of thumb I use is that you want to replace
between 20g of carbohydrate (training) and 60 g of carbohydrate (racing) per
hour.  This seems to be the limit you can absorb... but a recent study found
that having different size molecules could dramatically increase this
(several types of sugar).

You are right to think about this, but don't over think it.  Use your long
rides to experiment with what products and what amounts work best for you.
I think it is backwards to base your pace on the calories you have, instead
I would base my calories on my pace.

You should check out some 24 hour mountain bike racing forums and sites
because they have the same concerns.  Hammer has a lot of information as
well and some nice products, but go a little overboad in my opinion.

I've read most everything at Hammer, and other sites as well.

Your 60g is about 240 kcal which is probably right about what can be
absorbed by an average sized person. I'm 220lbs, so I figure I can
absorb more.

As far as pacing based on available calories, or the other way around,
there is no way I can replace anywhere near as many colories as I can
expend. For example at about 65% effort it is still 750kcal/hour.
Adding effort it easily goes over 1000 kcal/hour. Previous experience
has shown that at that rate, I sooner or later run out of juice, no
matter how much I eat. So I have to figure out what is a doable pace
for the amount of fuel I can process.

Joseph

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

TM said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.

Quoted message said:

I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.

Quoted message said:

I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.

Quoted message said:

At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my
hourly carb deficit.

Quoted message said:

I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?

Quoted message said:

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.

Quoted message said:

So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I remember reading that the average person has 2200 to 2500 calories
stored.
Now, if you are training hard and not replacing them then you will have
less. If you carbo load then you have the potential to increase this
number.

As far as racing goes, the rule of thumb I use is that you want to replace
between 20g of carbohydrate (training) and 60 g of carbohydrate (racing)
per
hour. This seems to be the limit you can absorb... but a recent study
found
that having different size molecules could dramatically increase this
(several types of sugar).

You are right to think about this, but don't over think it. Use your long
rides to experiment with what products and what amounts work best for you.
I think it is backwards to base your pace on the calories you have,
instead
I would base my calories on my pace.

You should check out some 24 hour mountain bike racing forums and sites
because they have the same concerns. Hammer has a lot of information as
well and some nice products, but go a little overboad in my opinion.

I've read most everything at Hammer, and other sites as well.

Your 60g is about 240 kcal which is probably right about what can be
absorbed by an average sized person. I'm 220lbs, so I figure I can
absorb more.

As far as pacing based on available calories, or the other way around,
there is no way I can replace anywhere near as many colories as I can
expend. For example at about 65% effort it is still 750kcal/hour.
Adding effort it easily goes over 1000 kcal/hour. Previous experience
has shown that at that rate, I sooner or later run out of juice, no
matter how much I eat. So I have to figure out what is a doable pace
for the amount of fuel I can process.

Joseph

Yes. I agree, to the point where it seems you are saying that you are going
to pace your race by calculations and not effort. I don't believe
calculations are useful that way. I think they are necessary for a fueling
strategy, but pace comes from trial and error in training. In other words,
calculate how to get the most fuel in your system before the race and how
much you can replace successfully each hour. Pace based on your experience
and real perceived effort, it's so complicated a science that it is best
understood as an art.

In short, I would hate to see you racing based on a math problem and finish
below your true potential.

Also, I've seen people be unhappy with their results and blame fueling
issues when it is really just the best they could do. Don't fall into that
trap and good luck!

TM said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

TM said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my
hourly carb deficit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading that the average person has 2200 to 2500 calories
stored.
Now, if you are training hard and not replacing them then you will have
less. If you carbo load then you have the potential to increase this
number.

Quoted message said:

As far as racing goes, the rule of thumb I use is that you want to replace
between 20g of carbohydrate (training) and 60 g of carbohydrate (racing)
per
hour. This seems to be the limit you can absorb... but a recent study
found
that having different size molecules could dramatically increase this
(several types of sugar).

Quoted message said:

You are right to think about this, but don't over think it. Use your long
rides to experiment with what products and what amounts work best for you.
I think it is backwards to base your pace on the calories you have,
instead
I would base my calories on my pace.

Quoted message said:

You should check out some 24 hour mountain bike racing forums and sites
because they have the same concerns. Hammer has a lot of information as
well and some nice products, but go a little overboad in my opinion.

I've read most everything at Hammer, and other sites as well.

Your 60g is about 240 kcal which is probably right about what can be
absorbed by an average sized person. I'm 220lbs, so I figure I can
absorb more.

As far as pacing based on available calories, or the other way around,
there is no way I can replace anywhere near as many colories as I can
expend. For example at about 65% effort it is still 750kcal/hour.
Adding effort it easily goes over 1000 kcal/hour. Previous experience
has shown that at that rate, I sooner or later run out of juice, no
matter how much I eat. So I have to figure out what is a doable pace
for the amount of fuel I can process.

Joseph

Yes.  I agree, to the point where it seems you are saying that you are going
to pace your race by calculations and not effort.  I don't believe
calculations are useful that way.  I think they are necessary for a fueling
strategy, but pace comes from trial and error in training.  In other words,
calculate how to get the most fuel in your system before the race and how
much you can replace successfully each hour.  Pace based on your experience
and real perceived effort, it's so complicated a science that it is best
understood as an art.

In short, I would hate to see you racing based on a math problem and finish
below your true potential.

Also, I've seen people be unhappy with their results and blame fueling
issues when it is really just the best they could do.  Don't fall into that
trap and good luck!

Art indeed! My previous efforts have been more seat-of-the-pants, and
I while I have been satisfied with the results, I felt they were sub
optimal. Particularly in the longer races, where I ran out of energy.
I also started out too fast, so that complicates the issue.

My idea is to mathematically guestimate a suitable pace, and then try
that pace on training rides, and adjust based on who knows what. I
want a pace that looks good on paper for long distance, and is tested
in shorter distances, rather than a pace that is tested on shorter
distances and just hoped for in terms of long distance.

Even the best laid plans can fall by the wayside underway, so this is
mor eor less just to give my pacing strategy a general nudge one way
or the other.

Joseph

Art indeed! My previous efforts have been more seat-of-the-pants, and
I while I have been satisfied with the results, I felt they were sub
optimal. Particularly in the longer races, where I ran out of energy.
I also started out too fast, so that complicates the issue.

My idea is to mathematically guestimate a suitable pace, and then try
that pace on training rides, and adjust based on who knows what. I
want a pace that looks good on paper for long distance, and is tested
in shorter distances, rather than a pace that is tested on shorter
distances and just hoped for in terms of long distance.

Even the best laid plans can fall by the wayside underway, so this is
mor eor less just to give my pacing strategy a general nudge one way
or the other.

Joseph

Another point. Your calculations aren't taking into consideration fat and
what percent of your energy is coming from it versus glycogen (variable
according to effort and trainable over time). You see how messy this gets?
You need to figure out how many calories you can successfully digest at your
race pace, but beyond that you may be barking up the wrong tree as far as
determining that pace. Heart rate or watts may serve you better in
understanding what pace your body can handle for what length of time. One
of those is what I would use for what its worth.

email hidden said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:
http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf

TM said:

Art indeed! My previous efforts have been more seat-of-the-pants, and
I while I have been satisfied with the results, I felt they were sub
optimal. Particularly in the longer races, where I ran out of energy.
I also started out too fast, so that complicates the issue.

My idea is to mathematically guestimate a suitable pace, and then try
that pace on training rides, and adjust based on who knows what. I
want a pace that looks good on paper for long distance, and is tested
in shorter distances, rather than a pace that is tested on shorter
distances and just hoped for in terms of long distance.

Even the best laid plans can fall by the wayside underway, so this is
mor eor less just to give my pacing strategy a general nudge one way
or the other.

Joseph

Another point.  Your calculations aren't taking into consideration fat and
what percent of your energy is coming from it versus glycogen (variable
according to effort and trainable over time).  You see how messy this gets?
You need to figure out how many calories you can successfully digest at your
race pace, but beyond that you may be barking up the wrong tree as far as
determining that pace.  Heart rate or watts may serve you better in
understanding what pace your body can handle for what length of time.  One
of those is what I would use for what its worth.

I did take into account how much comes from fat and how much from
carbs. It's of course just an estimate. I've worked my way back from a
combination of watts and HR (as a proxy for VO2max) to determine the
CHO caloric expenditure at different paces. I've pretty much figured
that under 5 hours I can do whatever I want in a race. No worries
about fuel, as long as I eat a bit. There are other issues with going
too hard in this case, but running out of gas isn't one of them.

The problem with long races is running out of gas. When the race rolls
around, I'll be using average HR to pace, making on the fly
adjustments for drift, temp, etc.

If I can safely assume I won't run out of gas I'll up the pace to 75%
or so, otherwise I have to keep it down at 70%. Not that big a diff,
but over 24 hours it adds up.

Joseph

email hidden said:

Hi All,

Because I have nothing better to do, I've been pondering fueling
requirements for rides of different durations and intensities.

I know more or less how may Watts and thus kcal are required for me to
ride certain types of terrain at certain speeds.

I figure I can assimilate about 400kcal/hour of ingested carbs while
riding. This based on a 16mg/min/kg figure I found, plus a little
margin.

At a given intenisty, I know more or less what percent of VO2max this
requires, and thus have an idea of how much energy is derived from
fat, and how much from carbs. Then I can subtract the 400 to figure my
hourly carb deficit.

I haven't found any good numbers for how many kcal are stored in the
form of glycogen in the muslces and liver. I've just extrapolted from
a few numbers here and there I've seen as averages for average sized
folks. So I'm using 20kcal per kg of lean body weight.

Does anyone have better numbers for this? I also wonder how great an
effect carbo-loading would have in terms of available kcal. Everything
I see is about how many mmol/kg of glycogen is found in the muscles.
This doesn't tell me much, as I can't figure out what the molar mass
is of glycogen, and anyway is the kg the mass of the muscles? If
"normal" concentrations are 110 mmol/kg or so, and a successful carbo-
loading session boosts this to 190mmol/kg, what does that mean in
terms of available kcal?

This year there are 4 specific events I am concentrating on. One is
less than 2 hours which I can go all out without worrying about
running empty, another is about 4.5 hours which is borderline if I go
all out. The next is 24 hours which by necessity must be taken at a
more relaxed pace, probably in the range of 65-75% VO2max. With a
better idea of how many kcal I have in my body, I will be better able
to chose a reasonable pacing strategy. The same for a 16 hour event a
little later.

So how do I figure out how many kcal I have stored, and how many more
can be crammed in by carbo-loading?

Joseph

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I don't know what kcal per kg or mmol/kg are, never heard of that
stuff.

But Roger De Vlaeminck and the rest of the Brooklyn guys use to
eat a large plate of pasta and steak cooked very rare just before
a big classic.

Quoted message said:

On Feb 9, 4:45 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf

That was interesting. I found the "Energy Source During Exercise"
tables enlightening. It seems to suggest that muscle glycogen is used
prefferentially until it is used up, then the main supply of CHO
becomes the blood as regulated/produced by the liver, and limited in
amount by the absorbtion rate.

That would mean maintaing a constant pace would not be wise. Any pace
that could be ridden later on fats and blood sugar alone, would be
wasefully slow when there was muscle glycogen around.

So go fast until muscle glycogen is almost depleted, then go as fast
as is possible (which is slow) with the limited calories the liver can
pull from the intestines.

I had been thinking in terms of spreading the total available calories
evenly over the whole ride.

So fill the tanks to the brim, ride at a fast aerobic pace until
empty, then slog along as best possible to the finish.

Toward the end of the paper there is a table showing glycogen stores
in terms of g/kg for various circumstances. It says 21g/kg stored
glycogen in the muscles for a high CHO diet. It also shows 36g/kg for
a carbo-loaded scenario. the kg must be muscle, but what really
matters is that it is almost twice as much.

This suggests that if under normal circumstances I have 2500kcal
stored, I might be able to bump that to as many as 4000. That would
make a big difference in terms of how long I could keep up the fast
aerobic pace before dogging it.

Joseph

email hidden said:

That was interesting. I found the "Energy Source During Exercise"
tables enlightening. It seems to suggest that muscle glycogen is used
prefferentially until it is used up, then the main supply of CHO
becomes the blood as regulated/produced by the liver, and limited in
amount by the absorbtion rate.

I don't think your interpretation is warranted. I think it's more like
renewal theory.

Quoted message said:

On Feb 10, 2:12 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

That was interesting. I found the "Energy Source During Exercise"
tables enlightening. It seems to suggest that muscle glycogen is used
prefferentially until it is used up, then the main supply of CHO
becomes the blood as regulated/produced by the liver, and limited in
amount by the absorbtion rate.

I don't think your interpretation is warranted. I think it's more like
renewal theory.

So blood glucose vs muscle glycogen is more or less even until
glycogen is depleted. But what about higher levels of exertion that
require more fuel than the blood stream can deliver? Then it tends
toward more glycogen being used. Or am I confusing the rate of CHO
absorbtion with the rate the liver can deliver?

Joseph

email hidden said:

So blood glucose vs muscle glycogen is more or less even until
glycogen is depleted. But what about higher levels of exertion that
require more fuel than the blood stream can deliver? Then it tends
toward more glycogen being used. Or am I confusing the rate of CHO
absorbtion with the rate the liver can deliver?

I think you're confused. There's always conversion of glycogen to
glucose going on, and there are several pathways. There's also
oxidative conversion of fat into glucose. You're focusing on only one
pathway and trying to match your CHO intake to your glycogen depletion
for that single path.

Quoted message said:

email hidden said:

So blood glucose vs muscle glycogen is more or less even until
glycogen is depleted. But what about higher levels of exertion that
require more fuel than the blood stream can deliver? Then it tends
toward more glycogen being used. Or am I confusing the rate of CHO
absorbtion with the rate the liver can deliver?

I think you're confused. There's always conversion of glycogen to
glucose going on, and there are several pathways. There's also
oxidative conversion of fat into glucose. You're focusing on only one
pathway and trying to match your CHO intake to your glycogen depletion
for that single path.

For non-fatties, there's probably significant utilization of protein
after a while too, though I don't recommend starvation.
Maybe you know--if fat burns in a carbohydrate flame, does protein burn
in a fat flame?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Quoted message said:

On Feb 11, 10:06 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

So blood glucose vs muscle glycogen is more or less even until
glycogen is depleted. But what about higher levels of exertion that
require more fuel than the blood stream can deliver? Then it tends
toward more glycogen being used. Or am I confusing the rate of CHO
absorbtion with the rate the liver can deliver?

I think you're confused. There's always conversion of glycogen to
glucose going on, and there are several pathways. There's also
oxidative conversion of fat into glucose. You're focusing on only one
pathway and trying to match your CHO intake to your glycogen depletion
for that single path.

I've got of course unlimted fat, but based on the range of paces I'm
considering, that will never account for more than 30% of my fuel. I
see now I was confused about how that works. The fat is first
converted to glucose and introduced to the blood, where it is
indistinguishable from glucose from other sources. For some reason I'd
been thinking of fat as local like muscle glycogen.

Fat I have enough of. Ingested CHO is of a limited supply, maybe 350
kcal/hr. At the start there is a limited amount of muscle glycogen,
which is partially replensihed underway. I don't get what percentages
the load is spread around. And how the partial replenishment underway
works.

Is it say for a given period 3g og muscle glycogen get expended and 1g
gets replenished until we get to zero? And at the same time blood
glucose is being expended at some constant rate?

Or for the practical aspect, given a fixed number of calories
available in the form of stored glycogen at the start of the race, and
a fixed number of calories that can be ingested underway, do you think
it is reasonable to try to pace such that (total from all sources)
calories are expended at at constant rate for the whole 24 hour race?
Ideally at a pace that would result in hitting the wall at 24.5 hours?

Joseph

Quoted message said:

email hidden said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:
http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf

Interesting-looking article, but long. Is it worth reading?

Thanks,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

On Feb 9, 4:45 am, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.

Quoted message said:

I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:
http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf

Interesting-looking article, but long.  Is it worth reading?

Thanks,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

I thought it was. But a large part of it goes over basic biochemistry
stuff you had in school. A nice refresher for those of us who were
absent that day.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

On Feb 9, 4:45 am, "[email hidden]"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
> doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.
I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:
http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf

Interesting-looking article, but long. Is it worth reading?

Thanks,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

I thought it was. But a large part of it goes over basic biochemistry
stuff you had in school. A nice refresher for those of us who were
absent that day.

Joseph

I was there, but how much do you think I remember 35 years later?

Thanks!
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

Quoted message said:

Mark & Steven Bornfeld said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> On Feb 9, 4:45 am, "[email hidden]"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> PS: I know this probably should be filed under who-cares and/or it-
>> doesn't-matter-anyway, but humour me please.
> I don't really care and it doesn't matter anyway but there's some
> stuff in the latter half of this that reviews the literature:
>http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/JOE/joe_sep05.pdf
Interesting-looking article, but long. Is it worth reading?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks,
Steve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Quoted message said:

I thought it was. But a large part of it goes over basic biochemistry
stuff you had in school. A nice refresher for those of us who were
absent that day.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

I was there, but how much do you think I remember 35 years later?

Thanks!
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDShttp://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Reminds me of a funny story about some guys I grew up with in
Brooklyn. One guy was a sort of happy-go-lucky kid who was known as a
bit of a clown, and not very good in school. Eventually he got his act
together and went to medical school. When he was finished, a mutual
friend said to me, "So how about that? John's going to be a doctor.
Well, he sure as Hell isn't going to be MY doctor!"

I was just kidding about being absent. I just never took any advanced
classes so my knowledge is limited to high school anyway, and I figure
anyone who is a successful dentist has de facto demonstrated an abilty
to study and remember stuff beyond my powers of recollection!

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Reminds me of a funny story about some guys I grew up with in
Brooklyn. One guy was a sort of happy-go-lucky kid who was known as a
bit of a clown, and not very good in school. Eventually he got his act
together and went to medical school. When he was finished, a mutual
friend said to me, "So how about that? John's going to be a doctor.
Well, he sure as Hell isn't going to be MY doctor!"

I was just kidding about being absent. I just never took any advanced
classes so my knowledge is limited to high school anyway, and I figure
anyone who is a successful dentist has de facto demonstrated an abilty
to study and remember stuff beyond my powers of recollection!

Joseph

I...I...guess...

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001