OT: Tips for a Ghost Bike

vey said:

Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
removal.
If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
it should be relatively safe.

I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php

Quoted message said:

vey said:

Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

Quoted message said:

On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
removal.
If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
it should be relatively safe.
I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php

What is a ghost bike?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:46:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vey said:

Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

Quoted message said:

On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
removal.
If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
it should be relatively safe.
I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php

What is a ghost bike?

Dear Andrew,

A memorial to a dead bicyclist, more stylized than the flowers and
shrines often set up at the site of fatal road accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

One objection to such roadside memorials is that they serve to
distract (as opposed to warn) drivers at what must be arguably the
worst possible spot.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:46:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vey <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
> rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

Quoted message said:

On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
removal.
If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
it should be relatively safe.
I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php

What is a ghost bike?

Dear Andrew,

A memorial to a dead bicyclist, more stylized than the flowers and
shrines often set up at the site of fatal road accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

One objection to such roadside memorials is that they serve to
distract (as opposed to warn) drivers at what must be arguably the
worst possible spot.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, I planned to add a SLOW DOWN sign to the memorial. I only
want it there for two months. Otherwise it becomes part of the landscape
and has no meaning.

vey said:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:46:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> vey <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
>> rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?
[email hidden] wrote:
> On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
> removal.
> If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
> it should be relatively safe.
> I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
> http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php
What is a ghost bike?

Dear Andrew,

A memorial to a dead bicyclist, more stylized than the flowers and
shrines often set up at the site of fatal road accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

One objection to such roadside memorials is that they serve to
distract (as opposed to warn) drivers at what must be arguably the
worst possible spot.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, I planned to add a SLOW DOWN sign to the memorial. I only
want it there for two months. Otherwise it becomes part of the landscape
and has no meaning.

Dear Vey,

I do understand the impulse, but traffic departments tear their hair
out over such things.

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed. To be
blunt, a roadside memorial is bad approach. It's not as effective, but
roughly the same as leaving a random orange cone in a traffic
lane--dangerous, impermanent, and ultimately futile.

If the site does indeed require improvement for safety, then talk to
the traffic department and get something lasting (not two months) and
useful--a real traffic sign set up _before_ the site of the accident,
paint stripes, a guard-rail, a lower posted speed limit, speed bumps,
a traffic signal, a street light, permanent speed-cop patrol, wider
lanes, prohibition of bicycles, or whatever it takes.

Otherwise, as you put it, the roadside memorial is just another part
of the landscape that has no meaning, except that it could cause
another accident and some road crew eventually has to clean up the
neglected mess.

Yes, talking to the traffic department is a huge pain and takes an
enormous amount of time and may produce only the result that the
professionals disagree with you that the road needs to be slowed at
that spot.

But which would you rather have as your own memorial? A lasting safety
improvement, or two months of roadside distraction? You have good
intentions, so I hope that you get the most bang for your buck.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

vey said:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:46:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>> vey <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
>>> rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?
> [email hidden] wrote:
>> On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
>> removal.
>> If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
>> it should be relatively safe.
>> I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master did.
>> http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php
> What is a ghost bike?
Dear Andrew,

A memorial to a dead bicyclist, more stylized than the flowers and
shrines often set up at the site of fatal road accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

One objection to such roadside memorials is that they serve to
distract (as opposed to warn) drivers at what must be arguably the
worst possible spot.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, I planned to add a SLOW DOWN sign to the memorial. I only
want it there for two months. Otherwise it becomes part of the landscape
and has no meaning.

Dear Vey,

I do understand the impulse, but traffic departments tear their hair
out over such things.

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed. To be
blunt, a roadside memorial is bad approach. It's not as effective, but
roughly the same as leaving a random orange cone in a traffic
lane--dangerous, impermanent, and ultimately futile.

If the site does indeed require improvement for safety, then talk to
the traffic department and get something lasting (not two months) and
useful--a real traffic sign set up _before_ the site of the accident,
paint stripes, a guard-rail, a lower posted speed limit, speed bumps,
a traffic signal, a street light, permanent speed-cop patrol, wider
lanes, prohibition of bicycles, or whatever it takes.

Otherwise, as you put it, the roadside memorial is just another part
of the landscape that has no meaning, except that it could cause
another accident and some road crew eventually has to clean up the
neglected mess.

Yes, talking to the traffic department is a huge pain and takes an
enormous amount of time and may produce only the result that the
professionals disagree with you that the road needs to be slowed at
that spot.

But which would you rather have as your own memorial? A lasting safety
improvement, or two months of roadside distraction? You have good
intentions, so I hope that you get the most bang for your buck.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Many, many people have tried to do as you say. In this area, they are
greeted by shrugs.

Since shrugs is all people get here, people begin to get frustrated.

They start holding rallies. I went to one last night. They do what they
can do to get the attention of officials. Still it doesn't seem to grab
hold. It seems to be a waiting game . . . who can wait out the other.
Meanwhile people die.

All we can do, when we are this powerless, is non-violent things that
certain people may find obnoxious. Talking does not work.

I live in a "better" part of town. A judge lives across the street from
me. An attorney lives next to me. No brown or black people live in my
neighborhood. So usually (for whatever reason) when I [censored], people
usually listen because I don't get emotional, I just recite the facts.

Yet, I have [censored] to the "traffic people" you mention with no good
results. Shrugs is all I get and people keep dying. So it is time to get
serious.

Time to pump up the volume.

If you have a better idea, I am all ears.

Eric Vey
Winter Park, FL

vey said:

Quoted message said:

vey said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:46:22 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>
>>> vey <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
>>>> rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?
>> [email hidden] wrote:
>>> On or between the sidewalks is the public right of way and subject to
>>> removal.
>>> If you can get permission from a local property owner (fence owner),
>>> it should be relatively safe.
>>> I would suggest not getting the owner angry like the fence master
>>> did.
>>> http://www.whatshouldiputonthefence.com/index.php
>> What is a ghost bike?
> Dear Andrew,
>
> A memorial to a dead bicyclist, more stylized than the flowers and
> shrines often set up at the site of fatal road accidents:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike
>
> One objection to such roadside memorials is that they serve to
> distract (as opposed to warn) drivers at what must be arguably the
> worst possible spot.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Dear Carl, I planned to add a SLOW DOWN sign to the memorial. I only
want it there for two months. Otherwise it becomes part of the
landscape and has no meaning.

Dear Vey,

I do understand the impulse, but traffic departments tear their hair
out over such things.

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed. To be
blunt, a roadside memorial is bad approach. It's not as effective, but
roughly the same as leaving a random orange cone in a traffic
lane--dangerous, impermanent, and ultimately futile.

If the site does indeed require improvement for safety, then talk to
the traffic department and get something lasting (not two months) and
useful--a real traffic sign set up _before_ the site of the accident,
paint stripes, a guard-rail, a lower posted speed limit, speed bumps,
a traffic signal, a street light, permanent speed-cop patrol, wider
lanes, prohibition of bicycles, or whatever it takes.

Otherwise, as you put it, the roadside memorial is just another part
of the landscape that has no meaning, except that it could cause
another accident and some road crew eventually has to clean up the
neglected mess.

Yes, talking to the traffic department is a huge pain and takes an
enormous amount of time and may produce only the result that the
professionals disagree with you that the road needs to be slowed at
that spot.

But which would you rather have as your own memorial? A lasting safety
improvement, or two months of roadside distraction? You have good
intentions, so I hope that you get the most bang for your buck.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think you understand, Carl. It isn't one intersection, but the
whole city that causes the deaths. The City wants to "fix" the
infrastructure, one intersection at a time at enormous cost. But that
won't work so long as their citizens drive like maniacs.

Quoted message said:

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed.

Where I live that's not the motive. It's to get people of all types
to think. The bikes are not placed where the rider was killed - it's
placed off the road nearby (generally on a pole on the sidewalk). I
doubt car drivers see them.

vey said:

Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

vey,

Some Ghost Bike <http://www.ghostbike.org/> thoughts:

Any white paint will do. A brush is just fine. Clean the bike first
to help with adhesion. A brisk rub down with rubbing alcohol or
another solvent will do the job. You could primer first with white
shellac (good for adhesion to chrome or bare metal) or Kilz or Binz,
but don't have to. Cheap is probably good.

The cheapest ghost bike might be in the form of a stencil, on a wall.
Some might consider that vandalism, unless you have enough money to
purchase the rights to put it there. Some might argue that a
professional billboard like this <http://tinyurl.com/yp2uhx> is less
distracting (and thus safer for drivers) than a ghost bike.

Freedom of expression. You can park a bike many places, and it's ok.
What do you think would stay longer: 1) an abandoned beater bike,
stripped of essential parts, locked to a pole, 2) an unregistered junk
car or 3) a ghost bike?

Best,
Larry

vey said:

Quoted message said:

But which would you rather have as your own memorial? A lasting safety
improvement, or two months of roadside distraction? You have good
intentions, so I hope that you get the most bang for your buck.

Um, worth repeating.

Quoted message said:

Many, many people have tried to do as you say. In this area, they are
greeted by shrugs.

Talking to the wrong people, or not using the right people to talk to
the people you're talking to.

Quoted message said:

Since shrugs is all people get here, people begin to get frustrated.

You mean, emotional?

Quoted message said:

They start holding rallies. I went to one last night. They do what they
can do to get the attention of officials. Still it doesn't seem to grab
hold. It seems to be a waiting game . . . who can wait out the other.
Meanwhile people die.

Lots of MV drivers and passengers are dying, and being injured,
sometimes horribly so. Pedestrians, too. If that makes you feel any
better...

Quoted message said:

All we can do, when we are this powerless, is non-violent things that
certain people may find obnoxious. Talking does not work.

Critical Mass? That leaves [censored]-off drivers who look for revenge,
and scapegoats.

Quoted message said:

I live in a "better" part of town. A judge lives across the street from
me. An attorney lives next to me. No brown or black people live in my
neighborhood. So usually (for whatever reason) when I [censored], people
usually listen because I don't get emotional, I just recite the facts.

Which are?

Quoted message said:

Yet, I have [censored] to the "traffic people" you mention with no good
results. Shrugs is all I get and people keep dying. So it is time to get
serious.

Quoted message said:

Time to pump up the volume.

Critical Mass? It's been done. See above. Rallies? You might get a
mention in the newspaper. If you still have a local newspaper, which
not many people read if you do still have one. Maybe 20 seconds on the
Nightly News, on one of hundreds of channels?

Quoted message said:

If you have a better idea, I am all ears.

Do what the Texas (for example) motorcyclists did when they wanted the
MMHL removed-- they hired effective (proof in the pudding) lobbyists.
Get a "Three Foot Passing Law" the Law of the Land where you live. --
D-y

vey said:

Like how is it placed so that Gov't officials don't remove it? Best
rattle paint? Is there a white fluorescent one available?

The ghost bikes in NYC are justy white kryloned/rustoleumed: frame
tires, everything.

Though I've heard of one of the bikes disappearing ("Bronx John"
Neese's at the Brooklyn foot of the Williamsburg Bridge), I haven't
heard of any coordinated mass removal of the Ghost Bikes by the city.

Politically, I'm neutral about them. They can't realistically be
considered a distraction while riding compared to the potholes,
pedistrians, cabs, flashing advertisements, grease slicks, etc etc
etc. If anything, it reminds riders to be cautious. The only downside
I can think of is that it doesn't exactly promote riding to non-
cyclists, which is exactly what would make the streets safer to ride.

/s

Quoted message said:

vey said:

If you have a better idea, I am all ears.

I don't see a ghost bike as being "serious."

First, what specifically would you like to see happen?  More courteous
driving?  Slower motorist speeds?  Fewer potholes where cyclists
ride?  Traffic light sensors that detect bikes?  Better passing
clearance from motorists?  Ticketing of aggressive motorists?

How will a white junk bike cause those things to happen?  Face it,
most people will never notice it at all.  Most of those that do will
view it as a quirky but uninteresting piece of "installation art."
Almost none will understand the symbolism you intend.

And of the tiny few that understand the symbolism - "A cyclist died
here" or whatever - what will be their reaction?  My bet is the great
majority will think "Damn!  Only a fool would ride a bike here!"

I think you're more likely to perpetuate the exaggeration of bicycling
"danger," reduce the number of cyclists, and ultimately do more harm
than good.

If you want to make a statement, I think a billboard is much more
effective.  So are public service announcements on radio and TV.  Even
bumper stickers, letters to the editor, etc.

In our town, we once had a very nice, professionally produced series
of cyclist & motorist education TV ads paid for by the most prominent
personal injury lawyer, who is a cyclist.  They showed motorists how
to safely pass cyclists, explained about cyclists merging to proper
lanes before turns, using lights for night riding, etc.  Each ad
finishing with the lawyer saying:  "And remember - cyclists have a
LEGAL right to the road."  I thought they were pretty effective.
(Disclosure:  I was the cyclist consultant on the project, and was
responsible for most of the script and about half of the narration.)

Unfortunately, interpersonal wrangling caused that law firm to
dissolve soon after, and we - the Ohio Bicycle Federation - were never
able to get rights to use the material statewide.   :-(

But again, I thought the ads were effective.  You might have better
long-term luck.

We had a couple of deaths recently in PDX -- which brought out the
ghost bikes, of course. And it caused endless hand-wringing by the
well meaning who are now calling for special bicycle boxes, raised
avenues, etc., etc., and, in fact, a new tax to pay for it all --
which can be passed by the city counsel and probably will be. This is
causing quite a bit of angst among the drivers and other folks who are
expected to pay for all these improvements (the tax would also pay for
routine pot hole filling and street fixing).

Personally, I think the proposed new bicycle infrastructure is a waste
of money. What is needed are wide streets and law abiding drivers
and bicyclists. We do not need a bunch of special markings and safe
places just for bikes. The streets will start looking like basketball
courts. BTW, we also got a new law this year that cars have to pass a
sufficient distance from bicycles, the distance being calculated by
the bicyclist's "fall zone" -- and arc from the bicyclist's center to
the ground. That would put most cars over the center line to pass a
bike, which I think is over-kill in some places. I want the world to
be safe for bicyclists, but it is getting incredibly fussy here in
PDX. I have been commuting nearly daily for 40 years in California
and Oregon (minus my current time off due to my broken leg) -- the
last 24 years in PDX, and there is no infrastructure change (apart
from bicycle skyways and separate but equal bicycle communities) that
could have prevented the accidents or close calls with cars in that
period -- all of which have had to do with inattention or agression.
-- Jay Beattie.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed.

Where I live that's not the motive. It's to get people of all types
to think. The bikes are not placed where the rider was killed - it's
placed off the road nearby (generally on a pole on the sidewalk). I
doubt car drivers see them.

Dear John,

People of all types?

People walking down sidewalks rarely kill bicyclists.

If car drivers don't see the shrine, then you're not reaching the type
of person that you want to influence most of all.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed.

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Where I live that's not the motive. It's to get people of all types
to think. The bikes are not placed where the rider was killed - it's
placed off the road nearby (generally on a pole on the sidewalk). I
doubt car drivers see them.

Quoted message said:

People of all types?
People walking down sidewalks rarely kill bicyclists.
If car drivers don't see the shrine, then you're not reaching the type
of person that you want to influence most of all.

Do any of us, honestly, look, slow, care or change driving behavior when
we see a cross and flowers by the roadway?
I don't.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:42:36 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed.

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Where I live that's not the motive. It's to get people of all types
to think. The bikes are not placed where the rider was killed - it's
placed off the road nearby (generally on a pole on the sidewalk). I
doubt car drivers see them.

Quoted message said:

People of all types?
People walking down sidewalks rarely kill bicyclists.
If car drivers don't see the shrine, then you're not reaching the type
of person that you want to influence most of all.

Do any of us, honestly, look, slow, care or change driving behavior when
we see a cross and flowers by the roadway?
I don't.

Dear Andrew,

You and I may not, but traffic departments find that there is indeed a
gawk effect at new shrines.

It's much less than the gawk effect at an actual accident, but they
worry about it.

I agree that there is probably no positive effect.

It's unlikely that such shrines influence the careless or reckless
driver who is presumably their intended target--if he isn't paying
enough attention to avoid hitting a real bicyclist out in the street,
he's not likely to notice a white bicycle or its painted image on the
side of the road.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A Muzi said:

Do any of us, honestly, look, slow, care or change driving behavior when
we see a cross and flowers by the roadway?
I don't.

Life is for the living. Or is it the lemmings?

You look at where some of the crosses with flowers are, marking places
where or near where people died on (Texas) highways around here, and
think, "how the f*** could someone screw up bad enough to get killed
_there_?".

Change the laws, make it a driver's fault if they hit a cyclist,
almost no matter what, which is what the three-foot law in effect
does, and get it enforced by the cops. Screw the memorials, reduce the
need for them in the first place.

(written in reaction to the widespread understanding by motorists that
they can hit a cyclist and almost always get away with it) (yes it
happened to me) --D-y

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

You want people to slow down at a spot where someone was killed.

Where I live that's not the motive. It's to get people of all types
to think. The bikes are not placed where the rider was killed - it's
placed off the road nearby (generally on a pole on the sidewalk). I
doubt car drivers see them.

Dear John,

People of all types?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

People walking down sidewalks rarely kill bicyclists.

Most drivers in my city walk sometimes too.

Quoted post said:

A Muzi said:

Do any of us, honestly, look, slow, care or change driving behavior when
we see a cross and flowers by the roadway?
I don't.

Life is for the living. Or is it the lemmings?

You look at where some of the crosses with flowers are, marking places
where or near where people died on (Texas) highways around here, and
think, "how the f*** could someone screw up bad enough to get killed
_there_?".

Change the laws, make it a driver's fault if they hit a cyclist,
almost no matter what, which is what the three-foot law in effect
does, and get it enforced by the cops. Screw the memorials, reduce the
need for them in the first place.

(written in reaction to the widespread understanding by motorists that
they can hit a cyclist and almost always get away with it) (yes it
happened to me)

I have told my wife the magic phrase that avoids prosecution:

"I didn't see him!"

This is in response to an occasion last summer in which an iPod'd bike
rider decided that the other side of the street would be the best
place to ride, and made that move right as my wife was coming abreast
of his rear wheel. My wife, cautious around bikes due to my hair-
raising tales of riding my bike on the roads, nailed the brakes and
turned the wheel, such that the car spun 180 degrees. The bike rider
never looked back, she claimed. She was frazzled when she got home -
"I could have KILLED him!" she lamented. I said, with no preamble,
that if she ever hits or runs over a bicyclist, to say "I didn't see
him" in order to get a free pass.

I don't ride on the street any more. I used to commute regularly by
bike. But the increased use of cell phones while driving made drivers
even less attentive than before, and after several close calls (pardon
the pun,) I started driving to work again.

E.P.

LF wrote:

[..]

Quoted message said:

When I see a piece (of Grafitti) that I like, it makes me happy. I enjoy
discovering them on rides, and may even go out of my way to see one that
I know.
<http://tinyurl.com/23yzjx> <http://tinyurl.com/yuh6j2>

Those are great.