Tube Patching Question

Bob who? said:

I was patching some tubes today and read the following in the instructions.

Quoted message said:

"...the patch starts the vulcanization immediately but the complete vulcanization is achieved only
after the tire runs on the road."

Quoted message said:

What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I wait before using my now patched
tubes, etc?

First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a patched
tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the best method of
pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

Unless the patch is fairly well cured, rolling on the road only helps lift the patch... from the
inside to outside starting at the hole.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.1.htmlOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a
patched tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the best
method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

That's dissappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be vulcanizded have failed the frying pan
test. Still, they normally stick and stay stuck very well.

Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

Thanks ~PB

RE/

Quoted message said:

What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I wait before using my now patched
tubes, etc?

Dunno from "vulcanizing", but my own incompetance is sometimes a factor - either through
misplacement of the patch or not noticing additional punctures.

To guard against that, I patch a tube empty, let it sit overnite, pump it up so it's swollen a
little more than it would be inside the tire, then just hang it up where I hang my spare tires.

There's always a tube like that hanging there and when I patch a flat at home, I just take swap one
one that's hanging and still has air in it.

On the road, my prejudice is to swap in a spare tube and fix the flat at home.

--
PeteCresswell

AGRIBOB said:

I was patching some tubes today and read the following in the instructions.

"...the patch starts the vulcanization immediately but the complete vulcanization is achieved only
after the tire runs on the road."

What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I wait before using my now patched
tubes, etc?

You can ride them straight away. Not much choice if it's your second flat of the day and you've used
your spare tube!

AGRIBOB asked:

<<<snip> How long can I wait before using my now patched tubes, etc? >>

If your tube is properly patched, you can ride it immediately. All that "curing" [censored] is [censored].
Just make sure to sandpaper the hell out of it and that the glue is totally dry before you put
the patch on.

Robert

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:43:16 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<RE/ <>What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I wait before <>using my now
patched tubes, etc? < <Dunno from "vulcanizing", but my own incompetance is sometimes a factor -
either <through misplacement of the patch or not noticing additional punctures. < <To guard against
that, I patch a tube empty, let it sit overnite, pump it up so <it's swollen a little more than it
would be inside the tire, then just hang it <up where I hang my spare tires.

I basically do the same thing. Patch, inflate and hang the patched tube up. If it makes through a
day or so, I deflate and fold it and add it to the group that goes out on rides.

Neat idea with the teflon pan. I've also missed a snakebite now and then and had no way to re-patch
because of the mis-application. I'm not as adventurous as some of you who went right out and tested
Jobst's suggestion, but now I know what to try next time.

<There's always a tube like that hanging there and when I patch a flat at home, I <just take swap
one one that's hanging and still has air in it. < <On the road, my prejudice is to swap in a spare
tube and fix the flat at home.

I hear ya, just that my spare tube often has a patch or three on it<g>.

all the best,

c.porter

(Pete Cresswell) said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

What ramifications does the above statement hold? How long can I wait before using my now patched
tubes, etc?

Dunno from "vulcanizing", but my own incompetance is sometimes a factor - either through
misplacement of the patch or not noticing additional punctures.

To guard against that, I patch a tube empty, let it sit overnite, pump it up so it's swollen a
little more than it would be inside the tire, then just hang it up where I hang my spare tires.

There's always a tube like that hanging there and when I patch a flat at home, I just take swap one
one that's hanging and still has air in it.

On the road, my prejudice is to swap in a spare tube and fix the flat at home.

Same here, but I got caught by the flat from hell this past week. I was on a no-hurry ride, and got
a fairly quick-deflating flat. I swapped in a known-good tube after checking thoroughly for (and
failing to find) the puncture's cause, pumped it up...and it hissed down immediately. Popped the
tire back off, pumped the tube...and it had punctured in the same place as the one that was removed.
I *closely* inspected the corresponding part of the tire, and found nothing, the same as the first
time, both visually, with a rag, and with my fingers. So, I patched the first tube, put it in with
the tube flipped around, pumped...and got halfway home before that one was punctured in the same
place again. Repeat process; patch the flatted tube in the pack, swap it in, get home...and hiss
down in the driveway. Even with a strong light and the big magnifier, I still can't find the cause
of the punctures. I'm just going to scrap that tire as cursed, and not worry about it.

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a
patched tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the
best method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

That's dissappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be vulcanizded have failed the frying pan
test. Still, they normally stick and stay stuck very well.

Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

Because the people designing the labels and choosing the terminology do not understand the product.
Vulcanizing is, specifically and solely, a heat-bonding process that melts one of the two substances
in order to bond the two together, like a solder joint in metal. Some solvent-based cements are
supposed to schieve something similar to this by a solvent weld, but in my experience, it doesn't
occur most of the time. The adhesive that is carried in the cement's solvent is what ends up doing
the bonding, from what I've seen.

I still have a genuine vulcanizing clamp out in the garage somewhere, but I haven't been able to
find vulcanizing patches for about 20 years now.

RE/

Quoted message said:

Even with a strong light and the big magnifier, I still can't find the cause of the punctures. I'm
just going to scrap that tire as cursed, and not worry about it.

Call me obsessive, but I glue a little bit of patch on one side of each tube at the valve stem. When
I mount a tube this little bit of color goes on the same side as the tire maker's logo.

Then, when I yank the tube, if I know where the tube's leaking I can ballpark the area on the tire
casing and take an extra-good look at it.
--
PeteCresswell

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:13:09 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email hidden]> thus amends himself:

Quoted message said:

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a
patched tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the
best method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

That's dissappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be vulcanizded have failed the frying pan
test. Still, they normally stick and stay stuck very well.

Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

Because the people designing the labels and choosing the terminology do not understand the product.

As pertains to patching a tube or a tire...

Quoted message said:

Vulcanizing is, specifically and solely, a heat-bonding process that melts one of the two
substances in order to bond the two together, like a solder joint in metal. Some solvent-based
cements are supposed to schieve something similar to this by a solvent weld, but in my experience,
it doesn't occur most of the time. The adhesive that is carried in the cement's solvent is what
ends up doing the bonding, from what I've seen.

(Vulcanizing more generally applies to heating the rubber to melt, form and cure it.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

<"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
<"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:13:09 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]> thus amends himself:

Quoted message said:

Pete Biggs said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a
> patched tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the
> best method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.

That's dissappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be vulcanizded have failed the frying
pan test. Still, they normally stick and stay stuck very well.

Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

Because the people designing the labels and choosing the terminology do not understand the
product.

As pertains to patching a tube or a tire...

Quoted message said:

Vulcanizing is, specifically and solely, a heat-bonding process that melts one of the two
substances in order to bond the two together, like a solder joint in metal. Some solvent-based
cements are supposed to schieve something similar to this by a solvent weld, but in my
experience, it doesn't occur most of the time. The adhesive that is carried in the cement's
solvent is what ends up doing the bonding, from what I've seen.

(Vulcanizing more generally applies to heating the rubber to melt, form and cure it.)

Vulcanizing is NOT melting. It is a chemical reaction. Natural rubber (from trees) is cured
by sulfur and heat. The old patched required lighting the patch and applying and clamping it
to the tube.

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:56:18 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> may have

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

Even with a strong light and the big magnifier, I still can't find the cause of the punctures.
I'm just going to scrap that tire as cursed, and not worry about it.

Call me obsessive, but I glue a little bit of patch on one side of each tube at the valve stem.
When I mount a tube this little bit of color goes on the same side as the tire maker's logo.

Then, when I yank the tube, if I know where the tube's leaking I can ballpark the area on the tire
casing and take an extra-good look at it.

There's this little stub of a tire crayon that I use for the same purpose...

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

RE/

Quoted message said:

There's this little stub of a tire crayon that I use for the same purpose...

*Tire* crayon? You mean I don't need to use this smelly old Sharpie laundry marker to draw a black
line around the puncture on a black tube and then try to see it when I place the patch?

Actually, I did try a couple plumber's crayons I had laying around - but they didn't work...
--
PeteCresswell

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:08:14 GMT, "Larry Silkaitis"

may have said:

<"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
<"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:13:09 GMT, Werehatrack <[email hidden]> thus amends himself:

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:13:01 -0000, "Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>[email hidden] wrote:
>> First: It is not true that the common patches vulcanize. If you want to try it, just heat a
>> patched tube by pressing the patch against a fairly hot Teflon coated frying pan. This is the
>> best method of pulling off an old REMA patch. Vulcanized patches do not come off.
>
>That's dissappointing. My Velox patches that appeared to be vulcanizded have failed the frying
>pan test. Still, they normally stick and stay stuck very well.
>
>Why is cement sometimes called "vulcanizing rubber solution"?

Because the people designing the labels and choosing the terminology do not understand the
product.

As pertains to patching a tube or a tire...

Quoted message said:

Vulcanizing is, specifically and solely, a heat-bonding process that melts one of the two
substances in order to bond the two together, like a solder joint in metal. Some solvent-based
cements are supposed to schieve something similar to this by a solvent weld, but in my
experience, it doesn't occur most of the time. The adhesive that is carried in the cement's
solvent is what ends up doing the bonding, from what I've seen.

(Vulcanizing more generally applies to heating the rubber to melt, form and cure it.)

Vulcanizing is NOT melting. It is a chemical reaction. Natural rubber (from trees) is cured by
sulfur and heat. The old patched required lighting the patch and applying and clamping it to
the tube.

It's in molten form during at least some part of the process if I recall correctly. The heat level
needed produces that effect. Afterwards, if memory serves, the temp for remelting it is higher.
Since synthetic rubber is a different matter, though, the whole "vulcanizing" term is really not
applicable to modern products. My recollection is that the old vulcanizing patches were both cured
and fused by the heat, but I know that the last few times I tried to use one during the '60s, they
didn't bond worth a damn. The people at the parts stores advised switching to cold patches. I think
the bottom line is that the hot patches only worked with the old tubes. As such, "vulcanizing" is
*really* an obsolete concept.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

I've never been able to succesfully patch a tube. (I've used a liquid cement type kit) I have it
patched slightly inflate it to check it. Then I re-install the tire. When I get to about 80psi, it
lets go. What am I doing wrong? (I always end up replacing the tube)

"Jonathan Kaplan" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've never been able to succesfully patch a tube. (I've used a liquid cement type kit) I have it
patched slightly inflate it to check it. Then I re-install the tire. When I get to about 80psi, it
lets go. What am I doing wrong? (I always end up replacing the tube)

Can't tell what you're doing wrong without knowing exactly what you're doing. Personally, I haven't
had a patch fail in many years.

Jonathan Kaplan said:

I've never been able to succesfully patch a tube. (I've used a liquid cement type kit) I have it
patched slightly inflate it to check it. Then I re-install the tire. When I get to about 80psi, it
lets go. What am I doing wrong? (I always end up replacing the tube)

Are you roughing the tube with sandpaper before putting the glue on? Also, the glue has to be
totally dry before the patch is applied. Jobst Brandt covers the subject exhaustively in the FAQ at:

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.1.htmlOpen ↗

--Josh

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 00:50:04 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> may have

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

There's this little stub of a tire crayon that I use for the same purpose...

*Tire* crayon? You mean I don't need to use this smelly old Sharpie laundry marker to draw a black
line around the puncture on a black tube and then try to see it when I place the patch?

Exactly. They exist in yellow and white, they're opaque, they don't dry out in geologically
significant periods of time, and they mark on tires and tubes very nicely.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I did try a couple plumber's crayons I had laying around - but they didn't work...

Wrong stuff; too hard, useful for steel and such but not rubber, as you discovered.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Jonathan Kaplan said:

I've never been able to succesfully patch a tube. (I've used a liquid cement type kit) I have it
patched slightly inflate it to check it. Then I re-install the tire. When I get to about 80psi, it
lets go. What am I doing wrong? (I always end up replacing the tube)

Cleanliness, usually

The scraper included is not to 'texture' the tube. It is intended for cleaning. Wrap the tube across
the back of your hand and scuff it so as to remove the dirt and crud. Better yet, wipe the area with
a volatile solvent that can evaporate without a residue.

Then do not touch the area with your fingers. Spread the cement in an area slightly larger than the
patch as thinly as will still just be all wet. Allow it to dry ( fifteeen to thirty seconds). Then
make a motion to tear the patch. The backing will lift and you can remove it, taking care to not
touch the clean surface with your fingers. Press the patch firmly over the injury for a moment and
you're ready to go.

Some patches have a clear top cover. That shows you where a patch stitcher has been if you use one.
(Looks like a dull
1/4 inch wide pizza cutter). If the clear cover removes easily, remove it. Harms nothing to leave
it in place.

See also the FAQ which is thorough. draco.acs.uci.eduindex.htmlOpen ↗
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971