SST Intensity

jsocia said:

[font=Arial]...[/font][font=Arial]Lately, every time I'm on the trainer I always shoot for my last personal best for each duration... [/font]

Personally, that's a path to burnout for me. Chasing records is really hard mentally and physically and there's a lot of evidence that it's neither necessary nor recommended for continued progress. But then I'd kill to be able to put out your power numbers, so maybe you're made of tougher stuff 🙂

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Personally, that's a path to burnout for me. Chasing records is really hard mentally and physically and there's a lot of evidence that it's neither necessary nor recommended for continued progress. But then I'd kill to be able to put out your power numbers, so maybe you're made of tougher stuff 🙂

-Dave

Thanks Dave. Well that's exactly what prompted my inquiry... meeting my daily goals is starting to cause a little bit of anxiety. I know you're on to something about mental burnout, and that's my fear as well. I think for the long run I should ease up on the throttle a wee bit... but some sort of pride or ego thing is kinda getting the best of me... I think I just needed to hear the voice of reason from another source. Thanks again...

jsocia said:

[font=Arial]In regards to SST and training in general, should most or all of the efforts be a maximal effort for the given duration?[/font]

No, the 'sweet spot' is closer to a moderate effort than a maximal one. For me, it usually feels pretty easy at the beginning, but requires some focus to maintain by the very end of the ride. At the end it feels like I've done some work, but I'm not in pain.

The goal is the ability to do higher volumes rather than teeth-gritting intensity.

jsocia said:

[font=Arial]In regards to SST and training in general, should most or all of the efforts be a maximal effort for the given duration? I generally do some combination of the following in a 2 or 3 day blocks (lately 3 day blocks more often than not) followed by 1 day off, before hitting another block:[/font]

[font=Arial]1 X 120 ~340[/font]
[font=Arial]1 X 90 ~355[/font]
[font=Arial]2 X 60 ~360[/font]
[font=Arial]3-4 X 30 ~375[/font]
[font=Arial]2-3 X 20[/font] [font=Arial]~395[/font]

[font=Arial]8 X 5 ~ 445 (not too often this time of year, but a couple times a month... just for frame of reference)[/font]

[font=Arial]Lately, every time I'm on the trainer I always shoot for my last personal best for each duration... or at least for the first few intervals depending the breakup of the workload. I'm interested in what my fellow SST'ers thoughts are? [/font]

[censored]: that's an awful lot of power!

When I'm training on a real FTP focus (versus CTL), I do regularly shoot for power PB's but not every workout and definitely not every interval thereof! Maybe the 1st interval on Tue/Wed/Sun. After those, I just do what I can.

Right now (with races still 4 months away), I'm looking at CTL first, FTP 2nd and so am not pushing the individual workouts quite that hard (probably 95% ). I'm more concerned about getting CTL right up to my pre-season norms and FTP just within 'striking distance of the summit'. 🙂

Just wondering what your weekly training time and TSS loads are? CTL?

rmur17 said:

Just wondering what your weekly training time and TSS loads are? CTL?

Weekly training time is usually in the neighborhood of 10 hours, not sure about calculating TSS and CTL though...

frenchyge said:

For me, it usually feels pretty easy at the beginning...

For the longer efforts of 60-120 minutes, that's how they always start out, but in order to maintain power for the duration they usually end up being 'teeth-gritting intensity' for the last third or so.

frenchyge said:

No, the 'sweet spot' is closer to a moderate effort than a maximal one. For me, it usually feels pretty easy at the beginning, but requires some focus to maintain by the very end of the ride. At the end it feels like I've done some work, but I'm not in pain.

I was going to post a thread asking "how sweet is the sweet in SST?" ... I'll post here, but if it's too OT, can move it.

My question follows on from the above. I see people with these kinds of figures, or doing a 2 hour SS ride ... that would be out of the question for me. 2 hour tempo, OK, but if I apply even the lower end of Coggan's figures, 1 hour at say high L3 would be Bloody Hard Work - though not quite teeth grittingly hard.

Maybe I'm just a wimp, maybe I'm older than I thought (54). But if I really want higher volumes in the SS, I need to come down to 82-85% of FT or even lower on subsequent days.

SST is supposed to be harder than just tempo isn't it?

FWIW, on my Tacx trainer, my FT is around 230-240W for 65 Kg. Currently doing my 2 x 20's at 210/220, SS around 200/210.

Thanks in advance for any help/input.

B

bing181 said:

I was going to post a thread asking "how sweet is the sweet in SST?" ... I'll post here, but if it's too OT, can move it.

My question follows on from the above. I see people with these kinds of figures, or doing a 2 hour SS ride ... that would be out of the question for me. 2 hour tempo, OK, but if I apply even the lower end of Coggan's figures, 1 hour at say high L3 would be Bloody Hard Work - though not quite teeth grittingly hard.

Maybe I'm just a wimp, maybe I'm older than I thought (54). But if I really want higher volumes in the SS, I need to come down to 82-85% of FT or even lower on subsequent days.

SST is supposed to be harder than just tempo isn't it?

FWIW, on my Tacx trainer, my FT is around 230-240W for 65 Kg. Currently doing my 2 x 20's at 210/220, SS around 200/210.

Thanks in advance for any help/input.

B

I'd suggest the sweet spot is actually more of a sweet range, from upper L2 to FTP. Now you could definitely do upper L2 for 2 hours. If you couldn't, it's either because you're just starting out and/or FTP is overestimated.

jsocia said:

For the longer efforts of 60-120 minutes, that's how they always start out, but in order to maintain power for the duration they usually end up being 'teeth-gritting intensity' for the last third or so.

hmmm .. I won't claim to go *that* hard on 'em - at not least not regularly but I get your drift.

The first half of the effort should feel moderate, progressing to hard by the 3/4 point and very hard or higher for the last quarter. I do enjoy pushing for 2-hr PB's on the CT for example ... right now they are '2008' PB's rather than all-time but good all the same.

AWESOME NUMBERS, DO YOU RACE? WHAT CATGORY?

jsocia said:

[font=Arial]In regards to SST and training in general, should most or all of the efforts be a maximal effort for the given duration? I generally do some combination of the following in a 2 or 3 day blocks (lately 3 day blocks more often than not) followed by 1 day off, before hitting another block:[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]

[font=Arial]1 X 120 ~340[/font]
[font=Arial]1 X 90 ~355[/font]
[font=Arial]2 X 60 ~360[/font]
[font=Arial]3-4 X 30 ~375[/font]
[font=Arial]2-3 X 20[/font] [font=Arial]~395[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]

[font=Arial]8 X 5 ~ 445 (not too often this time of year, but a couple times a month... just for frame of reference)[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]

[font=Arial]Lately, every time I'm on the trainer I always shoot for my last personal best for each duration... or at least for the first few intervals depending the breakup of the workload. I'm interested in what my fellow SST'ers thoughts are? [/font]

jeff828 said:

AWESOME NUMBERS, DO YOU RACE? WHAT CATGORY?

[font=Arial]This past season was my first year racing Expert MTB, usually placed in the top 5. The prior season I raced Sport as a first year racer and placed 1st overall for the season in one series, and 2nd in another. Regarding the numbers, I'd estimate my FTP to be about 50 watts higher now than the peak of the previous season. Last season I had made the mistake of focusing too much of my training around very intense 1-4 minute efforts, and was lacking in sustainable power.[/font]

jsocia said:

Thanks Dave. Well that's exactly what prompted my inquiry... meeting my daily goals is starting to cause a little bit of anxiety. I know you're on to something about mental burnout, and that's my fear as well. I think for the long run I should ease up on the throttle a wee bit... but some sort of pride or ego thing is kinda getting the best of me... I think I just needed to hear the voice of reason from another source. Thanks again...

What Dave said. I would add that it's important not to get in the habit of looking at a workout where you didn't set a record as a failure, but get the feeling of acomplishment and reward from completing each workout completely and with focus. You really don't even have to kill yourself out there each time. Think of each day as a building block and a step towards your larger goals. Sometimes you stumble along the way, but as long as your moving forward, you're making progress.

Oh, and the reason why I revived this thread was a question for you. I see you're doing Coggan-ish type of workouts. Are you still working with Dave Morris?

bbrauer said:

Oh, and the reason why I revived this thread was a question for you. I see you're doing Coggan-ish type of workouts. Are you still working with Dave Morris?

[font=Arial]Never actually worked with Morris, but I did use his strength training and block training methods with great success for building up lots of power for shorter intense efforts. This year I've been focusing on extending that power into longer durations.

I'm still strength training as well, primarily single-leg squats with a Bosu ball and Smith-Machine to improve some muscle imbalance that was causing Patella-Femoral syndrome in my left leg. But I've also noticed increased muscle endurance from this training as well...

As far as Morris style training with 2-3 day blocks of 1-4 minute L5-L7 efforts, I'll pick that back up about 6 weeks out from race day. I'll continue with the SST style workouts as well, but only 1-2 days a week.
[/font]

Are you using a CT or powermeter outdoors? How are you know you are doing these numbers?

I would love to see a guy putting out 355 watt for 90 minutes? What kind of terrrain are you riding on to produce these watts. I find it difficult on flat terrain to generate anywhere near those numbers when doing 30 - 35 mph....

Have you thought about doing TT?

-Js

jsocia said:

[font=Arial]In regards to SST and training in general, should most or all of the efforts be a maximal effort for the given duration? I generally do some combination of the following in a 2 or 3 day blocks (lately 3 day blocks more often than not) followed by 1 day off, before hitting another block:[/font]

[font=Arial]1 X 120 ~340[/font]
[font=Arial]1 X 90 ~355[/font]
[font=Arial]2 X 60 ~360[/font]
[font=Arial]3-4 X 30 ~375[/font]
[font=Arial]2-3 X 20[/font] [font=Arial]~395[/font]

[font=Arial]8 X 5 ~ 445 (not too often this time of year, but a couple times a month... just for frame of reference)[/font]

[font=Arial]Lately, every time I'm on the trainer I always shoot for my last personal best for each duration... or at least for the first few intervals depending the breakup of the workload. I'm interested in what my fellow SST'ers thoughts are? [/font]

jsirabella said:

I would love to see a guy putting out 355 watt for 90 minutes? What kind of terrrain are you riding on to produce these watts. I find it difficult on flat terrain to generate anywhere near those numbers when doing 30 - 35 mph....

Perhaps you should run somes number through this calculator - kreuzotter.deespeed.htmOpen ↗

With my height of 72 inches and weight of 174, I would need to generate 800 watts for 32.4 on a 1% grade. 350 watts on that same grade is about 22.7... much more plausible now for 90 minutes? That being said I find it difficult to believe one would have a hard time generating 350 watts at 30-35 miles an hour?

Thank you for the link to the calculator.

We are actually similar in weight but I am only 69 inches tall. I do not know the grade of the places I ride but in my WKO+ files, I only hit 30+ miles per hour in a pack during a race. Maybe the grade or wind is the factor but when I am doing 22 miles per hour, I am never in the 300 area except when approaching a hill and than seem to shoot in the 400 watt range...

During those times I am not in the 300 watt range, infact most of the time during races I seem to either be in the 200 watt range, above 400 watts or zero. That has always seem to be a dead zone for me as I am not good enough yet to train regularly in that area. I am usually in the 250 area.

I have to play with my files and the calculator.

I do not doubt that it is plausible...I would just love to see it. I know on my CT doing 260 for an hour is beyond hell for me but that is a big gain for me compared to a year ago...my goal is 4 watts/kg. I can imagine yours would be way past that...

I do not know how you compare to pro numbers but compared to the numbers in most of the riders around here in NYC and alot of the posts around here, you would be way above.

-Js

jsocia said:

Perhaps you should run somes number through this calculator - kreuzotter.deespeed.htmOpen ↗

With my height of 72 inches and weight of 174, I would need to generate 800 watts for 32.4 on a 1% grade. 350 watts on that same grade is about 22.7... much more plausible now for 90 minutes? That being said I find it difficult to believe one would have a hard time generating 350 watts at 30-35 miles an hour?

jsirabella said:

I only hit 30+ miles per hour in a pack during a race. Maybe the grade or wind is the factor but when I am doing 22 miles per hour, I am never in the 300 area except when approaching a hill and than seem to shoot in the 400 watt range...

I think if you were riding solo or on the front of the pack at those speeds, you'd see power numbers similar to what's been posted. The power requirement for riding in the pack is ~30-50% lower, except when going uphill, as you mentioned.

jsirabella said:

Thank you for the link to the calculator.

We are actually similar in weight but I am only 69 inches tall. I do not know the grade of the places I ride but in my WKO+ files, I only hit 30+ miles per hour in a pack during a race. Maybe the grade or wind is the factor but when I am doing 22 miles per hour, I am never in the 300 area except when approaching a hill and than seem to shoot in the 400 watt range...

During those times I am not in the 300 watt range, infact most of the time during races I seem to either be in the 200 watt range, above 400 watts or zero. That has always seem to be a dead zone for me as I am not good enough yet to train regularly in that area. I am usually in the 250 area.

I have to play with my files and the calculator.

I do not doubt that it is plausible...I would just love to see it. I know on my CT doing 260 for an hour is beyond hell for me but that is a big gain for me compared to a year ago...my goal is 4 watts/kg. I can imagine yours would be way past that...

I do not know how you compare to pro numbers but compared to the numbers in most of the riders around here in NYC and alot of the posts around here, you would be way above.

-Js

it might be just envy since my numbers are closer to JS, but the OP's numbers seem a bit grandiose for anybody but a national class time trialist or a solid domestic pro. The drop off from time intervals seems all wrong. A two hour interval at 80% of FTP would require FTP to be around 425. I would think 2 hours at 90% of FTP would be pretty tough and even there FTP would need to be 377. But then he claims he can nail 2 x 60s at 260, which would be a pretty tough feat for a guy with a FTP of 377. And then that presupposes he can rip off 3-4 x 20s at more than 100 % of FTP, which certainly is not sst training by any definition, unless he has power nuimbers well into the 400s

kopride said:

The drop off from time intervals seems all wrong. A two hour interval at 80% of FTP would require FTP to be around 425. I would think 2 hours at 90% of FTP would be pretty tough and even there FTP would need to be 377. But then he claims he can nail 2 x 60s at 260, which would be a pretty tough feat for a guy with a FTP of 377. And then that presupposes he can rip off 3-4 x 20s at more than 100 % of FTP, which certainly is not sst training by any definition, unless he has power nuimbers well into the 400s

He pretty much stated that those were personal bests or maximal efforts, which is a step beyond SST, IMO. If you assume his FTP is near his stated 2-3x20 wattage (395w), then his 2x60 wattage is around .9FTP. That's a hard ride, but doable. 2hrs at .86FTP isn't terribly difficult at all.