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trials class system

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20 December 2007
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  1. is there a class system for trials unicycling? I propose setting up a
    standard system for grading the difficulty of a line in a similar way
    that climbers grade routes and rapids are classed. i am thinking a
    class 1-10 system where class one would be the equivelant of riding
    along a 2 foot wide path with drops of 30cm or less working up to class
    ten with round skinnies and 100cm hops.
    does anybody think this is a good idea? anyone want to help write this
    system?

    thanks
    uni_jim

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  2. uni_jim said:

    is there a class system for trials unicycling? I propose setting up a
    standard system for grading the difficulty of a line in a similar way
    that climbers grade routes and rapids are classed. i am thinking a
    class 1-10 system where class one would be the equivelant of riding
    along a 2 foot wide path with drops of 30cm or less working up to class
    ten with round skinnies and 100cm hops.
    does anybody think this is a good idea? anyone want to help write this
    system?

    thanks
    uni_jim

    I don't think this is a good idea because it is just based on hop
    height pretty much, nothing technical.

    --
    mornish

    aim:kiloornish
    email: mornish AT gmail DOT com'myspace' (www.myspace.com/mornish)

    spencer said:

    just think of it like a roller coaster.


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  3. that was only to give a general outline of the idea. the actual system
    would be about the overall difficulty. I have ridden lines that didn't
    get any higher than a foot, but were harder than anything i have ever
    tried.

    --
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  4. I don't want to presume, but it sounds like you maybe haven't read the
    rules that already exist for Trials.

    http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
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  5. I think this is a great idea, though hard to set up.

    If you go to ten and keep sub level rankings, like in climbing (a, b,
    c, d), eventually there will need to be 11, 12, 13, etc.

    johnfoss said:

    I don't want to presume, but it sounds like you maybe haven't read the
    rules that already exist for Trials.

    http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/

    And trials is where?

    --
    skilewis74

    Ride everywhere and never just ride anywhere. If you can ride where you
    are going within a hour, do it, and if you can do a trick 50-75% of the
    time do it along the way.
    Bob Bernquist on how to improve significantly.

    yunisyko said:

    it's all about balls. i lose them often and then get em back.


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  6. I really don't think you can quantify trials skill. It is hard enough to
    quantify freestyle or street skill, but at least those have easy to
    identify benchmarks of difficulty.

    With trials, there are no definitive skills that quantify overall
    ability and can be easily compared and associated with overall skill
    level.

    you can compare singular achievements, and basics, but trails is about
    putting skills to the test and learning on the go, not just
    accomplishing basic skills.

    I think I am doing a poor job at trying to explain whats in my mind, so
    more simply:

    You can't conclusively define riders trials skill, based on individual
    achievements or even the sum of those achievements.

    --
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  7. Trial levels... it sounds quite good. This is not rules for trials
    comps, but like the ten basic freestyle levels.

    1. *Newbie*
    - 10cm side hop
    - Static gap 2ft
    - Ride across a 4x8
    - Jump up and down stairs without correctional hops.

    2.*Beginner*
    - 35cm side hop
    - Static gap 3ft
    - Clean a "wedge" line.
    - Ride across a 2x4
    - Crank-grab 50cm
    - Jump across round smooth rocks no more that 1 ft high and 2.5ft
    apart

    3. *Intermediate*
    - 60cm side hop
    - Static gap 4.5ft
    - Ride across a 2x4 with an incline of 10 degrees
    - Ride across a the skinny end of a 2x4
    - 30cm side hop to 2x4 skinny and ride
    - Jump across 4 consecutive "rungs" of a ladder, 6" diameter and 2ft
    apart.
    - Pedal grab 80cm
    - Jump up an incline of 30 degrees
    - Still stand for 10 seconds
    - Jump across rocks, that are still flat-ish, no more than 18" high and
    3.5ft apart

    4. *Expert*
    - 85cm side hop
    - Jump 70cm to 2x4 skinny and ride
    - Static gap 6ft
    - Ride across a rail 3" in diameter for 2 meters suspended 2ft high.
    - Jump across 4 consecutive post, 4" in diameter and 2ft apart
    - Jump across 4 consecutive "rungs" of a ladder, 6" diameter and 4ft
    apart
    - Pedal-grab to rail and jump over and across
    - Ride twisted skinnies 3" wide and 4ft high.
    - Jump up an incline of 45 degrees
    - Jump up a post 60cm high, 4" in diameter
    - Pedal-grab up a post 80cm high and 4" in diameter
    - Still stand for 20 seconds
    - Jump 70cm, without a pre-hop, from an irregular surface, to an
    irregular surface

    5.*Pro *
    - 105cm side hop
    - Static gap 7ft
    - Gap from one rail road track to other and ride.
    - Pedal grab up a rail 1.5" and ride it.
    - Jump across two "rungs" of a ladder, 6" in diameter and 6ft apart
    - Jump across 4 consecutive posts, 2" in diameter and 2ft apart
    - Still stand for 40 seconds
    - Jump 90cm, without a pre-hop, from an irregular surface to an
    irregular surface
    - castrate all street riders who say that trials is just "leg
    strength"

    6. *Godly*
    - Have the name Ryan Atkins

    Feel free to add or modify. This is just basic, so chime in if you
    think some parts aren't fair.

    --
    Danni

    leo said:

    Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.

    'My Trials Course'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64079)
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  8. Danni said:

    Trial levels... it sounds quite good. This is not rules for trials
    comps, but like the ten basic freestyle levels.

    6. *Godly*
    - Have the name Ryan Atkins

    haha, but you forgot Tom Pec, Joe Hodges and Mark Fabian.

    Peter M

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    Jerrick said:


    I wonder if more people will start putting some themes into their uni
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  9. One of the big problems with having a level system in trials, like
    standard skills, is that the approach is so different. Standard
    skill levels are only really possible because the terrain is 100%
    predictable and is the same everywhere in the world (ie. flat).

    Much closer to trials are the grading systems in climbing, where you
    grade the route difficulty, not the technique difficulty. With
    experience on different routes, climbers get a sense for what
    constitutes a certain grade and then they judge the difficulty of other
    routes based on how a certain grade feels to them. Climbing has a
    big advantage over trials in establishing such a grading system because
    routes are permanent features that get climbed enough times and
    described enough in guidebooks to establish a consensus grade.

    In the earlier drafts of the unitrials rules, (prior to about 2003),
    course setters were supposed to rate the difficulty of obstacles and
    establish point ratings, where harder lines received more points. We
    did away with this because it was hard to do consistently around the
    world. Now every trials line in a competition is worth one point- much
    easier to administrate.

    However, one outcome of that was a difficulty rating system called the
    U-System, which was inspired by the V-System for rating bouldering
    problems in climbing. You can see it here on page 16:
    http://tinyurl.com/2ne3x3

    The idea was to have an open-ended rating system with examples of
    different obstacles at each level. The idea is *not* to "accomplish"
    U1, or U5, etc. in the same way as standard skills, by doing all the
    example obstacles at a certain level. The point is that the rider
    uses the examples to get a personal sense for how hard a U3 level
    problem, say, feels to them. Then, when they are out riding something
    else (including obstacles you couldn't possibly describe or include in
    a skill level), they can rate it's difficulty based on their sense of
    the U system ratings.

    This system sort of died because unlike climbing most trials lines are
    obscure and rarely done exactly the same way by many riders, and none
    to date are described in guidebooks.

    But it would be a good way to communicate about trials difficulty in
    different places in the world, and to track the improvement of the
    sport over time. The advantage is that unlike competitions, where
    you can only look back and say that a certain person won, with a rating
    system you could look back and see the actual skills progression. For
    example in 2002 there were only maybe 2 or 3 riders in the world who
    could do U8 lines, whereas today there are dozens of riders who can do
    that.

    Kris

    --
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  10. Probailer2 said:

    haha, but you forgot Tom Pec, Joe Hodges and Mark Fabian.

    Peter M

    If I remember correctly, is was Atkins you owned all you Europeans. Go
    Canada!

    --
    Danni

    leo said:

    Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.

    'My Trials Course'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64079)
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  11. Danni said:

    If I remember correctly, is was Atkins you owned all you Europeans. Go
    Canada!

    yep, atkins all the way, but for a class system, i dont really see a
    need for it unless your in a competition and in that case they already
    have a system for that dont they?

    --
    Spoonthumb

    2nd Place )---hickflip-'O,

    tugboat said:

    You won't get hurt if you land it...

    Brian O. said:

    Maybe Santa will let you guide his sleigh on that thing come Christmas.

    Uni For Christ
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    if your reading this your UGLY
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  12. danger_uni said:

    One of the big problems with having a level system in trials, like
    standard skills, is that the approach is so different. Standard
    skill levels are only really possible because the terrain is 100%
    predictable and is the same everywhere in the world (ie. flat).

    Much closer to trials are the grading systems in climbing, where you
    grade the route difficulty, not the technique difficulty. With
    experience on different routes, climbers get a sense for what
    constitutes a certain grade and then they judge the difficulty of other
    routes based on how a certain grade feels to them. Climbing has a
    big advantage over trials in establishing such a grading system because
    routes are permanent features that get climbed enough times and
    described enough in guidebooks to establish a consensus grade.

    In the earlier drafts of the unitrials rules, (prior to about 2003),
    course setters were supposed to rate the difficulty of obstacles and
    establish point ratings, where harder lines received more points. We
    did away with this because it was hard to do consistently around the
    world. Now every trials line in a competition is worth one point- much
    easier to administrate.

    However, one outcome of that was a difficulty rating system called the
    U-System, which was inspired by the V-System for rating bouldering
    problems in climbing. You can see it here on page 16:
    http://tinyurl.com/2ne3x3

    The idea was to have an open-ended rating system with examples of
    different obstacles at each level. The idea is *not* to "accomplish"
    U1, or U5, etc. in the same way as standard skills, by doing all the
    example obstacles at a certain level. The point is that the rider
    uses the examples to get a personal sense for how hard a U3 level
    problem, say, feels to them. Then, when they are out riding something
    else (including obstacles you couldn't possibly describe or include in
    a skill level), they can rate it's difficulty based on their sense of
    the U system ratings.

    This system sort of died because unlike climbing most trials lines are
    obscure and rarely done exactly the same way by many riders, and none
    to date are described in guidebooks.

    But it would be a good way to communicate about trials difficulty in
    different places in the world, and to track the improvement of the
    sport over time. The advantage is that unlike competitions, where
    you can only look back and say that a certain person won, with a rating
    system you could look back and see the actual skills progression. For
    example in 2002 there were only maybe 2 or 3 riders in the world who
    could do U8 lines, whereas today there are dozens of riders who can do
    that.

    Kris

    I read your U system many times, and based it on my competition. All
    side hops do not exceed 36", while there are nuts doing 44". Perhaps
    you need a new U level?

    While your rules do apply in trials comps, they aren't like the 10
    freestyle levels. A 36" hop is fairly common nowadays, but few can do
    skinnies really well. I think that it's time to change things in the U
    system, or make a new 5 or 10 level system

    --
    Danni

    leo said:

    Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.

    'My Trials Course'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64079)
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  13. Danni said:

    A 36" hop is fairly common nowadays, but few can do skinnies really
    well. I think that it's time to change things in the U system, or make
    a new 5 or 10 level system

    i agree, i can hit 32" almost every single time but ican only still
    stand for about 8 seconds...and my skinnys suck...i think that trials
    now since we have all these people nailing these huge hops should start
    getting more techincal and so should the rules...

    --
    Spoonthumb

    2nd Place )---hickflip-'O,

    tugboat said:

    You won't get hurt if you land it...

    Brian O. said:

    Maybe Santa will let you guide his sleigh on that thing come Christmas.

    Uni For Christ
    'GET LOST' (www.lost.eu/6c7c7)
    if your reading this your UGLY
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  14. I don't think there should be any rules.

    For competitions, I like the points system. But I say let us trials
    riders be more concerned with self accomplishment than ranking.

    --
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  15. Spoonthumb said:

    i agree, i can hit 32" almost every single time but ican only still
    stand for about 8 seconds...and my skinnys suck...i think that trials
    now since we have all these people nailing these huge hops should start
    getting more techincal and so should the rules...

    The U rules are out of date. Like KH said, the level has grown
    substantially in the last few years. Maybe do some minor changes here
    and there and add a level?
    It doesn't effect me whatsoever since I'm not very good yet, but it's
    nice to get involved. It's also nice to know where you are in the
    trials scale, what areas need improving etc.

    --
    Danni

    leo said:

    Without cocks you wouldn't even have a family forum.

    'My Trials Course'
    (http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64079)
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  16. Hops versus skinnies is one of the hardest things to get right in a
    rating system. It's true that the riding standard for hops has
    gotten way higher while small technical riding has lagged. I think
    that's partly why Ryan dominated at the last UNICON- there are a lot of
    big moves riders but way fewer at the top level for technical trials.

    In climbing there's a similar conundrum between rating gymnastic
    overhanging routes with bigger holds, and low angle technical balancy
    routes. They both get the same rating system, but way more climbers
    can get up 5.13 overhanging routes compared to 5.13 routes that are
    less than vertical.

    Ultimately I think it comes down to establishing a consensus on what
    constitutes the perfectly balanced trials rider in terms of skills- the
    standard for a rating system.

    Is a rider who can hop 40" but can't gap to a 2" round beam and ride
    along it a balanced rider in terms of skills? I would probably say
    they are not.

    For comps I think that course setters focusing on technical rather than
    big moves might help a lot in terms of evening this out over time.

    It would be great if someone could go through the U-system spreadsheet
    and give me some detailed feedback in terms of where you think it could
    be improved. We now need more examples at the U8 level and also to
    define U9.

    Kris

    --
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  17. skilewis74 said:

    And trials is where?

    Page 65. 2006 Rulebook. But Kris Holm's version is more up to date,
    though I think it's not 100% the same as what the IUF will be coming
    out with in the 2008 rulebook. We usually go with his suggestions for
    Trials stuff (he basically wrote it all).

    Chexjc said:

    I don't think there should be any rules.

    Does that mean you don't think there should be competitions? You can't
    have a competition without rules. You can't even play hide-and-seek.
    How high are you going to count? Players need to know...

    But listen to Kris, he's probably thought more about this than anyone
    else.

    --
    johnfoss

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  18. Danni said:

    If I remember correctly, is was Atkins you owned all you Europeans. Go
    Canada!

    I know, I was at FLUCK...
    But still, the riders I mentioned are allso realy good.

    Peter M

    --
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    Sponsored by www.municycle.com

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    Jerrick said:


    I wonder if more people will start putting some themes into their uni
    design. Except Koxx, they already have the drug theme covered.


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