USADA streak broken

DirtRoadie said:

http://www.competitor.com/article/?Guid=1012c702-8522-4891-a3ac-4ba0f...

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA. Those who voted to destroy Landis reputation and career out
to be held personally responsible for their actions.

Indeed there are a lot of dope users in the pack. But knowing they are
there does not lead to changing things by simply pointing fingers at
people without real proof and then inventing "real proof" as if such
carelessness should be OK with the public.

Quoted message said:

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA.

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

On Dec 18, 9:34 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA.

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

Dumbass,

USADA, WADA, and Chateney-Malabry are quasi-governmental
agencies and arguably have a duty of care which some
shyster lawyer could argue has been breached. There is
a difference between Fraud suing USADA and ASO suing, say,
Vino, or Telekom suing Sinkabitch. (I think a team
whose sponsor disappears is hurt more than ASO is hurt by
the riders. If no one shows up to watch the Tour next July,
you ccan tell me I was wrong.) That said, although
I'd kind of like to see Fraud beat the rap, I wouldn't
like to see him getting millions of bucks out of USADA for
doing what they are more or less chartered to do.

In an ideal world, the outcome of this fiasco would be
better practices at the labs rather than financial damages.
However, that is unlikely to happen. Both because there
is no real incentive for the labs to become un-sloppy,
and because they can't admit there's a sloppiness
problem or they're afraid they'll lose cases. That's
what happens when you make science experiments serve
as judicial prosecutions. Look at all the prosecutors
who won't drop charges even after it's been shown that
crime labs (for real crimes) relied on actually faked
or unreliable evidence (a stepp beyond random LNDD
sloppiness).

Ben

On Dec 18, 11:21 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'd kind of like to see Fraud beat the rap, I wouldn't
like to see him getting millions of bucks out of USADA for
doing what they are more or less chartered to do.

So, Ben, do you think that USADA was chartered to accept rumors as
sufficient proof of guilt? Even the USADA admitted that the level of
certainty wasn't there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted post said:

I'd kind of like to see Fraud beat the rap, I wouldn't
like to see him getting millions of bucks out of USADA for
doing what they are more or less chartered to do.

So, Ben, do you think that USADA was chartered to accept rumors as
sufficient proof of guilt? Even the USADA admitted that the level of
certainty wasn't there.

No, it wasn't "rumor." It was sloppy lab work. If USADA
investigates somebody based on Magilla's comments in rbr,
that will be rumor. I don't believe WADA/USADA was
selectively discriminating against Floyd in particular.
I think their charter is to frame riders fair and square.

There are a non-trivial number of people rotting in
US prisons who were convicted for real crimes on
evidence that stinks worse than the evidence against
Floyd. (Plus, people in Gitmo who've never been tried
at all.) That doesn't mean Floyd should walk, or not
walk. I'm just pointing it out to show that people
aren't always consistent in what level of judicial
unfairness they are willing to hold the prosecuting
bodies accountable for.

Ben

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Plus, people in Gitmo who've never been tried at all.)

By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA.

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

Wait, you don't think the current or proposed penalties of remitting
winnings, losing two years (unpaid) at their mayfly-duration vocation,
and the massive post-suspension damage to the rider's reputation and
ability to work is enough?

What next, amputation?

TK's point is that if Floyd does win on appeal, all that stuff will have
still happened to him, possibly excepting the repuation. Oh, and maybe
they'll have a third TdF podium ceremony to un-strip him of the jersey.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

Ryan Cousineau said:

Quoted post said:

On Dec 18, 11:01 am, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA.

Quoted message said:

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

Wait, you don't think the current or proposed penalties of remitting
winnings, losing two years (unpaid) at their mayfly-duration vocation,
and the massive post-suspension damage to the rider's reputation and
ability to work is enough?

What next, amputation?

Uh oh....Lance...!

R

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:rcousine-BFD1CE.18370318122007@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

With any luck at all if the ADA is defeated on appeal Floyd will also
win the right to sue for millions of dollars both the French lab and
the USADA.

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

Wait, you don't think the current or proposed penalties of remitting
winnings, losing two years (unpaid) at their mayfly-duration vocation,
and the massive post-suspension damage to the rider's reputation and
ability to work is enough?

What next, amputation?

TK's point is that if Floyd does win on appeal, all that stuff will have
still happened to him, possibly excepting the repuation. Oh, and maybe
they'll have a third TdF podium ceremony to un-strip him of the jersey.

And all of that isn't nearly bad enough - besides you have absolutely
ignorant fools such as many on this site that seem to think that rumors of
doping is all that it should take to cause these horrible results.

If I could have my wish it would be for Chung and Amit and the others to be
treated EXACTLY the way they're treating people whom they do not know.

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

(Plus, people in Gitmo who've never been tried at all.)

By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

Dumbass,

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts. Because
they prefer you to rest comfortably in your ignorance of
what is done in your name. If all those detainees are so
bad - and I guess that some of them did do terrible things,
but we've muddled the case so bad we'll never prove it -
you'd think they could come up with some evidence against
them beyond the pain-induced ravings of tortured unstable
underlings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/books/review/Lithwick-t.html

Read it and take responsibility for it. You want this
to happen. So it's on your head. Stand up and say you
think this is right.

Ben

Ryan Cousineau said:

Quoted message said:

So you also agree that the ASO should sue riders that are found guilty
of doping to collect damages to the value of their franchise they've
suffered as a result ?

Wait, you don't think the current or proposed penalties of remitting
winnings, losing two years (unpaid) at their mayfly-duration vocation,
and the massive post-suspension damage to the rider's reputation and
ability to work is enough?

dumbass,

those are punishments for the rider, but none of those allow the ASO
to collect for any damages and to my knowledge no rider has (or ever
will) actually pay back earnings (it's already stated sinkewitz
won't).

lotto did in fact stated at one point it intended to sue vino and
astana for the worldwide publicity it lost out on when vino beat evans
in the TT of the tour.

i'm not saying battling lawsuits is the answer, but kunich is really
eager to see landis punish the ADAs. in that case whats good for the
goose in good for the gander.

what about the race organizers who do the heavy lifting and have the
biggest expenses and have worked over many years to establish a
reputation for their race and relationships with sponsors ?

On Dec 18, 10:06 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts.

I hate to point this out to you but prisoners-of-war are USUALLY held
until the end of the war before being released. They are NOT tried.

I know that someone that has never been outside of their highschool
playground might not realize this but Gitmo is a prisoner-of-war camp
IN THE USUAL sense.

Tell me, are you crying about Old Capitol Prison from the Civil War?

I suggest you actually understand history and actually learn something
before demonstrating your insane ignorance to the world at large.

On Dec 19, 2:18 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

those are punishments for the rider, but none of those allow the ASO
to collect for any damages and to my knowledge no rider has (or ever
will) actually pay back earnings (it's already stated sinkewitz
won't).

There you have the writings of someone who presents himself as an
educated man who seems to have missed that the "pay back earnings" is
a rule just put into place.

Quoted message said:

i'm not saying battling lawsuits is the answer, but kunich is really
eager to see landis punish the ADAs. in that case whats good for the
goose in good for the gander.

Sorry if you don't understand how a legal system works but that's the
breaks of the big time.

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 10:06 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 7:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

Quoted message said:

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts.

I hate to point this out to you but prisoners-of-war are USUALLY held
until the end of the war before being released. They are NOT tried.

I know that someone that has never been outside of their highschool
playground might not realize this but Gitmo is a prisoner-of-war camp
IN THE USUAL sense.

Tell me, are you crying about Old Capitol Prison from the Civil War?

I suggest you actually understand history and actually learn something
before demonstrating your insane ignorance to the world at large.

Could you two please try to stay on point? This started as a
discussion on USADA/WADA v Floyd, and somehow you've denigrated to a
discussion on the treatment of detainees at Gitmo.

While the goings-on at Gitmo may be important, they are not relevant
to bicycle racing in general or this thread in particular.

Scott said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 10:06 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 7:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts.

Quoted message said:

I hate to point this out to you but prisoners-of-war are USUALLY held
until the end of the war before being released. They are NOT tried.

Quoted message said:

I know that someone that has never been outside of their highschool
playground might not realize this but Gitmo is a prisoner-of-war camp
IN THE USUAL sense.

Quoted message said:

Tell me, are you crying about Old Capitol Prison from the Civil War?

Quoted message said:

I suggest you actually understand history and actually learn something
before demonstrating your insane ignorance to the world at large.

Could you two please try to stay on point? This started as a
discussion on USADA/WADA v Floyd, and somehow you've denigrated to a
discussion on the treatment of detainees at Gitmo.

While the goings-on at Gitmo may be important, they are not relevant
to bicycle racing in general or this thread in particular.- Hide quoted text -

Strange that you mention that to me despite the fact that it was Ben
who changed the subject.

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 10:06 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 7:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

Quoted message said:

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts.

I hate to point this out to you but prisoners-of-war are USUALLY held
until the end of the war before being released. They are NOT tried.

I know that someone that has never been outside of their highschool
playground might not realize this but Gitmo is a prisoner-of-war camp
IN THE USUAL sense.

War Criminal Kunich,

The whole point of Gitmo is that it is is not a
prisoner-of-war camp in the usual sense, and the
prisoners have been classified as "enemy combatants"
rather than prisoners of war, and the administration
has repeatedly claimed that the Geneva Convention
does not apply to them or anybody at Gitmo. You
could look it up. They do this so that "we" can
do whatever we want to the prisoners and nobody
will ever know or hear about it, especially after
the tapes are erased. "We" used to be a country
that tried not to abuse prisoners.

Scott doesn't want to hear about it. That's fine.
It is off topic, not to mention uncomfortable to
think about. But your rationalizations for it are
factually wrong. Just remember what they're doing
in your and my name. I'll shut up now.

Ben

Quoted message said:

Tell me, are you crying about Old Capitol Prison from the Civil War?

I suggest you actually understand history and actually learn something
before demonstrating your insane ignorance to the world at large.

On Dec 19, 12:35 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 10:06 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Dec 18, 7:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> By all means tell me what you actually know about Gitmo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I read the transcripts of the trials of Gitmo detainees.
It didn't take long. Because there haven't been any
trials and they won't release any transcripts.

Quoted message said:

I hate to point this out to you but prisoners-of-war are USUALLY held
until the end of the war before being released. They are NOT tried.

Quoted message said:

I know that someone that has never been outside of their highschool
playground might not realize this but Gitmo is a prisoner-of-war camp
IN THE USUAL sense.

War Criminal Kunich,

The whole point of Gitmo is that it is is not a
prisoner-of-war camp in the usual sense, and the
prisoners have been classified as "enemy combatants"
rather than prisoners of war, and the administration
has repeatedly claimed that the Geneva Convention
does not apply to them or anybody at Gitmo. You
could look it up. They do this so that "we" can
do whatever we want to the prisoners and nobody
will ever know or hear about it, especially after
the tapes are erased. "We" used to be a country
that tried not to abuse prisoners.

Scott doesn't want to hear about it. That's fine.
It is off topic, not to mention uncomfortable to
think about. But your rationalizations for it are
factually wrong. Just remember what they're doing
in your and my name. I'll shut up now.

Ben

Quoted message said:

Tell me, are you crying about Old Capitol Prison from the Civil War?

Quoted message said:

I suggest you actually understand history and actually learn something
before demonstrating your insane ignorance to the world at large.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I never said I didn't want to hear about it. The point I was making
is that Kunich, without fail, will go off topic and rant about who
knows what, whenever the urge strikes him. You made one reference to
Gitmo in the context of a discussion on justice, and that doofus
insists on changing the topic from a discussion about Landis and the
justice, or lack thereof, of the anti-doping crusaders actions, to one
of a discussion about politics. YOU opened the door for it, and
Kunich went storming right through.

Yeah, I know... RBR is overwraught w/ political discussions, but for a
brief moment it looked like there might be a thread that actually
discussed a racing-related issue. Oh, nooooo, not w/ Kunich looking
for any opportunity to TRY to convince everyone how smart he is.
Without fail I'm convinced he's the most argumentative MF'er I can
imagine. Don't believe it, try this: agree with him on something.
He'll change his position just so he can keep arguing.

Scott said:

try this: agree with him on something. He'll change his
position just so he can keep arguing.

That's just the way he's been programmed.

BTW I wish SchwartzSoft would at least update the codebase
locale bundles now and then. The standard
"By all means tell me what you actually know about x"
is getting boring and sounds a bit like Eliza.

Donald Munro <[email hidden]> wrote in news:476a2a24$0$25512
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Scott said:

try this: agree with him on something. He'll change his
position just so he can keep arguing.

That's just the way he's been programmed.

BTW I wish SchwartzSoft would at least update the codebase
locale bundles now and then. The standard
"By all means tell me what you actually know about x"
is getting boring and sounds a bit like Eliza.

I always thought of that as a lyrical meter phrase. You know, like in
Latimore's translation of The Iliad, where the phrase "and he fell and
his armor clattered thunderously upon him" is used over and over again.
The prof told us that it comes up because in Ancient Greek it was a
phrase used to keep the rhythm of the story going because it rhymed (or
something like that anyway, I slept, mostly, through Humanities 101).
For my money, the rhythm of the story would better have been preserved by
some explicit sex scenes, but then again, if those had been in there, it
would have been Achilles and Patroklos anyway, but I digress.

--
Bill Asher