endless helmet discussions

ryancycles said:

My two cents worth!
I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
other type of bike for that matter.)
Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
there.

[censored] Ryan

True, this is an endless discussion as everyone has an opinion.

If I showed p for an advertised "group" ride and was told that I "HAD"
to wear a helmet then it's BYE BYE....I'll ride alone. Much like an
earlier posting where a guy was given a load of [censored] for wearing a
T-shirt and not a "cycle" jersey. I don't own one of those as they
are WAY too expensive and overrated.

I'll ride alone in both cases thank you very much.

ryancycles said:

My two cents worth!
I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
other type of bike for that matter.)
....

[censored] Ryan

I used to wear helmets all the time too, back about 5 years ago, before
I had any recumbents.

Then I did for the first 2 or 3 years I was riding recumbents only, just
out of habit.

Then I realized that I wasn't real likely to hit my head on the
recumbents. They can't be tipped forward from braking, and if I hit
anything hard enough to tip a LWB over forward, I doubt a bicycle helmet
is going to spare me much damage anyway.

Also--there's no helmet I've ever found that's as comfortable as riding
without a helmet.

--------

It's rather odd if you consider the history of it: safety bicycles were
introduced as an answer to the problem of penny-farthings tipping over
forward. ....And yet even today, many of the most-severe injuries people
get on modern safety bicycles are STILL head injuries, resulting from
tipping over forward or otherwise falling and landing on their heads.
~

"ryancycles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My two cents worth!
I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
other type of bike for that matter.)
Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
there.

[censored] Ryan

Ahh, the Dutch. They have rather enlightened drug and prostitution laws too.
Some damn fine lowracers come from there.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

ryancycles aka censored 'Recumbent Godfather' Ryan said:

My two cents worth!
I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
other type of bike for that matter.)
Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
there.

If you want to sell bicycle helmets, what better way than to start a
fear campaign backed by an invalid study (the infamous and discredited
Thompson, Rivara, Thompson)? The sad part is that the helmet fear
campaign has turned off many potential cyclists, since it implies that
cycling is a much more dangerous activity than it really is. Creditable
studies have shown the fewer cyclists increases the danger for those who
still ride, so the overall effect of the helmet fear/promotion campaign
may well have been making cycling more dangerous in the US.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

ryancycles said:

My two cents worth!
I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
other type of bike for that matter.)
Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
there.

[censored] Ryan

I think one reason would be that, in Holland, one would not have to
deal with American drivers.

Lewis.

*****

Ozark Bicycle said:

Edward Dolan said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

ryancycles aka [censored] "Recumbent Godfather" Ryan wrote:
> My two cents worth!
> I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
> recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
> other type of bike for that matter.)
> Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
> DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
> and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
> thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
> wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
> helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
> than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
> with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
> wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
> there.
If you want to sell bicycle helmets, what better way than to start a fear
campaign backed by an invalid study (the infamous and discredited
Thompson, Rivara, Thompson)? The sad part is that the helmet fear campaign
has turned off many potential cyclists, since it implies that cycling is a
much more dangerous activity than it really is. Creditable studies have
shown the fewer cyclists increases the danger for those who still ride, so
the overall effect of the helmet fear/promotion campaign may well have
been making cycling more dangerous in the US.

Here is the indomitable Mr. Sherman proving yet once again that 2 + 2 = 5. I
wish I could do these slight of hands, but I never acquired the knack. Maybe
you have to go to an engineering school like he did in order to get to this
state of bamboozlement.

Sherman is just regurgitating the same old AHZ boilerplate BS. Sherman
is incapable of independent thought.

Still trying to attract customers with "0% attitude", Zarkie?

Ozark Bicycle is incapable of not being jealous of those who get more
respect than he does.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile of
dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

On Dec 19, 9:06 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Edward Dolan said:

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> ryancycles aka [censored] "Recumbent Godfather" Ryan wrote:
>> My two cents worth!
>> I think it's a valid argument that head injuries are less likely on a
>> recumbent. I've never worn a helmet while riding a recumbent (or any
>> other type of bike for that matter.)
>> Since I've become a snowbird a couple of years ago I've been riding a
>> DF bike down in sunny Venice Fl. I've run into a couple of bike clubs
>> and was asked if I'd like to join, but helmets were mandantory. NO
>> thanks, one of the great pleasures of riding a bike to my mind is the
>> wind blowing through my non-existent hair. Could some one of the
>> helmet proponents explain to me why in Holland, which has more bikes
>> than any other country, no one wears a helmet? One would think that
>> with their semi-socialistic government everyone would be required to
>> wear helmets and body armor. Perhaps some common sense still exists
>> there.
> If you want to sell bicycle helmets, what better way than to start a fear
> campaign backed by an invalid study (the infamous and discredited
> Thompson, Rivara, Thompson)? The sad part is that the helmet fear campaign
> has turned off many potential cyclists, since it implies that cycling is a
> much more dangerous activity than it really is. Creditable studies have
> shown the fewer cyclists increases the danger for those who still ride, so
> the overall effect of the helmet fear/promotion campaign may well have
> been making cycling more dangerous in the US.
Here is the indomitable Mr. Sherman proving yet once again that 2 + 2 = 5. I
wish I could do these slight of hands, but I never acquired the knack. Maybe
you have to go to an engineering school like he did in order to get to this
state of bamboozlement.

Quoted message said:

Sherman is just regurgitating the same old AHZ boilerplate BS. Sherman
is incapable of independent thought.

Still trying to attract customers with "0% attitude", Zarkie?

Ozark Bicycle is incapable of not being jealous of those who get more
respect than he does.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Ozark Bicycle said:

Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile of
dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Quoted message said:

I think one reason would be that, in Holland, one would not have to
deal with American drivers.

Lewis.

*****

Or American /lawyers/, who (by my estimates) spread considerably more
misery than American drivers do.....
~

I see you aren't disputing the amount of respect you get, you
regurgitating, imitative, parroting little troll.

Tom 'I wanna be like Jobst' Sherman said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile of
dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I see you aren't disputing the amount of respect you get, you
regurgitating, imitative, parroting little troll.

Tom 'I wanna be like Jobst' Sherman said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile of
dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Dear OB,

You have a store, eh? Schmuckness certainly isn't the way to get customers.
Based on your recent posts, I predict a blow out sale just before your URL
goes back on the block, and you move back in with mommy.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

gotbent said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I see you aren't disputing the amount of respect you get, you
regurgitating, imitative, parroting little troll.

Quoted message said:

Tom 'I wanna be like Jobst' Sherman said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile of
> dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Dear OB,

You have a store, eh? Schmuckness certainly isn't the way to get customers.
Based on your recent posts, I predict a blow out sale just before your URL
goes back on the block, and you move back in with mommy.

Wow! See ya same time bext year, Getbent.

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gotbent said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I see you aren't disputing the amount of respect you get, you
regurgitating, imitative, parroting little troll.

Quoted message said:

On Dec 19, 9:47 pm, Tom "I wanna be like Jobst" Sherman
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile
> > of
> > dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

Quoted message said:

> I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

Quoted message said:

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when
> temperature
> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Dear OB,

You have a store, eh? Schmuckness certainly isn't the way to get
customers.
Based on your recent posts, I predict a blow out sale just before your
URL
goes back on the block, and you move back in with mommy.

Wow! See ya same time bext year, Getbent.

That's GOTBENT, you pathetic putz.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

gotbent said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gotbent said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I see you aren't disputing the amount of respect you get, you
> regurgitating, imitative, parroting little troll.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Dec 19, 9:47 pm, Tom "I wanna be like Jobst" Sherman
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > Sherman, the only thing which gets less respect than you is a pile
>> > of
>> > dogshit on the road, and even that is a close call. Clear enough?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I see Zarkie is using Usenet well to attract potential customers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when
>> temperature
>> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
>> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear OB,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You have a store, eh? Schmuckness certainly isn't the way to get
customers.
Based on your recent posts, I predict a blow out sale just before your
URL
goes back on the block, and you move back in with mommy.

Quoted message said:

Wow! See ya same time bext year, Getbent.

That's GOTBENT, you pathetic putz.

It's "GETBENT" to me, pudpuller.

gotbent aka 'FVTR said:

Ahh, the Dutch. They have rather enlightened drug and prostitution laws too.

Where are the free markets fanatics in the US when you really need them?

Quoted message said:

Some damn fine lowracers come from there.

Be careful not to drool on your keyboard:
<http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/html/picturepopup.php?picture=images%2Ffotos%2Fnme%2Ffoto-001.jpg&quality=87&size=100%25&type=0&show_info_tags=1&sort=1&repeat=&taal=en>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

check out this site re medical literature on bicycle head injuries
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

i punched in bicycle head injuries--got literature and studies throught the
world

i started to wear a helmet at least when i ride in the streets of the
bronx,,i really am not sure it's going to make a safer ride and i really do
not want any more tickets--my area of the bronx is infested with cops

fwiw

peter

fwiw

ilaboo said:

check out this site re medical literature on bicycle head injuries
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Problem with PubMed is you typically only get abstracts and you don't
get critique. So you see, for example, Thompson, Ribara & Thompson's
1989 Magnum Opus "A case controlled study of the effectiveness of
bicycle safety helmets" says there's an 85% reduction in Nastiness and
you think, "hey, that's a big number, in a respectable peer reviewed
journal!" and it turns up again in the Cochrane Review, so it must be
good, and so on.

But actually read it and you find the figure comes from a method which
boils down to comparing poor kids riding alone or with peers on busy
urban streets and affluent kids riding with their parents in parks and
assuming all of the difference is down to the latter group wearing
helmets...

In short, PubMed online is a start, but nothing more. There's
considerably more detail including critique at www.cyclehelmets.org

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

peter

i agree it is only a start but at least it's something

idealy is to get access to emergency room data and ic9 codes

point is that there are studies and data is collected continuosly.

most of us believe that helmets do gives us an edge in a very dangerous
world--the streets

peter

ilaboo said:

i agree it is only a start but at least it's something

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing... it can lean you to an
entirely false conclusion.

Quoted message said:

point is that there are studies and data is collected continuosly.

if you look at studies based on continual data gathering (typically
whole population studies, as governments collect and collate road
traffic accident data) then you get to see the picture that helmets
don't appear to make any clear difference to serious head injuries.

Quoted message said:

most of us believe that helmets do gives us an edge in a very dangerous
world--the streets

For some values of "most": in many countries, including those with the
lowest serious head injury rates, helmet wearing amongst
transportational cyclists is very much in the minority.
And what "most of us believe" isn't necessarily what happens, and if you
look at the whole population studies you can see pretty good evidence
that a helmet doesn't actually increase your chances. if it did, they'd
be making a clear dent in the figures, but they don't.

I used to believe a helmet gave me an edge, but I was challenged to look
at the research closely (not just a few selected abstracts, but the
whole papers, which is relatively easy as I've got a medical research
library a few minutes from my desk with full access to many publications
the general public can only get abstracts for). I went in to prove what
an idiot the guy challenging me was, but came out realising the evidence
I had counted on until then was at best half baked.

There is no clear evidence I've seen that helmets really do give an edge
on the streets, and I've looked quite hard. That is why I stopped
wearing one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/