Light wheels?

Quoted message said:

Hi,
I'm wondering if I can usefully improve my bike with a nice
wheelset. Currently I'm running old fashioned and inexpensive 36-spoke
wheels- the rear's a 700c with a cheap hub and a fairly chunky Rigida
rim. The front's an ageing Campy Tipo on a Weinmann concave (and is a
27"/630mm). I feel this ought to offer plenty of potential for an
upgrade, but I don't know what these actually weigh, and don't have a
decent set of scales so stripping them to actually find out would be
of limited value.
The bike's built on a 531c frame and weighs about 9Kg or so, I think.
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe". Assuming these would make a difference, is it
necessary to spend this much money to get close, or are we well into
diminishing returns territory?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
W.

they do look nice, wheels. will they make a different s? probably.
though more in feel than X amount quicke.

as to is it worth it? well it's your money

roger

Quoted message said:

Hi,
I'm wondering if I can usefully improve my bike with a nice
wheelset. Currently I'm running old fashioned and inexpensive 36-spoke
wheels- the rear's a 700c with a cheap hub and a fairly chunky Rigida
rim. The front's an ageing Campy Tipo on a Weinmann concave (and is a
27"/630mm). I feel this ought to offer plenty of potential for an
upgrade, but I don't know what these actually weigh, and don't have a
decent set of scales so stripping them to actually find out would be
of limited value.
The bike's built on a 531c frame and weighs about 9Kg or so, I think.
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe". Assuming these would make a difference, is it
necessary to spend this much money to get close, or are we well into
diminishing returns territory?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
W.

These are track specific wheels, 21mm width, laced with 28 bladed
spokes in an exotic pattern. They would be wasted on a bike for
general riding, and they would hamper puncture repair out on the road.
Depends what you want them for. You'd get a noticable improvement by
going for modern components that are suited for the road, say 32 hole
CXP22s wired 3x onto Campag Veloce, shod in 23mm road tyres. It would
save your pocket as well.

David Lloyd

Quoted message said:

The bike's built on a 531c frame and weighs about 9Kg or so, I think.
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <
http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html > or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe". Assuming these would make a difference, is it
necessary to spend this much money to get close, or are we well into
diminishing returns territory?

First off, I'm guessing you've got an elderly frame so check the spacing
on your frame and fork[1][2]. You may want to cold set your frame. A
nice steel frame (as yours is) can be easily cold set to take pretty much
anything, or just have a hub that's one size up forced in.

Modern front hubs will squeeze into 96mm forks but I'm not sure whether
this is wise (I'm running a 96mm hub in 91mm forks on the fixed so it
does work. I'd not be confident that a 100mm hub would fit or would be
safe even if it did).

Front wheel/fork spacings
91 mm Low-end front hubs.
96 mm Older front hubs, especially French.
100 mm Modern front hubs.

Rear wheel/frame spacings
110 mm Rear older track, coaster brake and other single-speed hubs.
114 mm Rear 3-4-speed.
120 mm Rear 5-speed, Ultra 6, newer track hubs.
126 mm Rear 6- and 7-speed (road).
130 mm Rear 7-speed (MTB) and 8- 9- and 10-speed (road).

I suspect that the Velos Track wheels had 120mm spacing and aren't
intended to run normal gears. In practice you may be able to do this,
but it'd probably the warrantly. They're also rather expensive, and I'm
not sure that track hubs would have good enough (any?) sealings to
protect the bearings from the cack on the roads.

In terms of bling, value and weight, Shimano's road wheelsets are amongst
the best. The Mavic Ksyrium range beat them at bling, but maybe lose out
on value. Roval wheels are worth a looksie too.

At the cheaper end, Decathlon have some wheels that are probably 1700 and
something grammes[3] for less than £100 but

If you want something that can be more easily maintained you can't go
wrong with some Open Pro rims, expensive butted spokes and a hub of your
choice.

As to the difference a light wheelset makes, it's something you only
notice when you accelerate hard. Hills are another area where they will
benefit you (by a teeny amount). I'm riding relatively heavy wheels at
the moment and the bike is nowhere near as lively as it would be with
lighter hoops. There's no difference just trundling around, but when the
power goes down I miss that little extra something.

[1] <www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_n-o.html#old>
[2] <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sp-ss.html#spacing>
[3] The label said 2700-and something grams, but no wheel is that heavy.
I couldn't find them on their -appalling- website either.

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

David Lloyd said:

Quoted message said:

<Quoting me>
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe".
Any thoughts?

Quoted message said:

These are track specific wheels, 21mm width, laced with 28 bladed
spokes in an exotic pattern. They would be wasted on a bike for
general riding, and they would hamper puncture repair out on the road.

I was under the impression they were a "crossover" design, with
reasonably well sealed bearings that would be OK for road use. Not as
robust as a proper road wheel but intended to be lighter.

Why would they make punture repair difficult? I can see that the
weird spoke setup would make truing harder, but the rim's pretty
standard, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Depends what you want them for. You'd get a noticable improvement by
going for modern components that are suited for the road, say 32 hole
CXP22s wired 3x onto Campag Veloce, shod in 23mm road tyres. It would
save your pocket as well.

That sounds like good advice, but the Veloce hubs seem to be cassette
only. I don't see a fixed option like the Cane Creeks.
From what I recall, Campy don't do a "track" hub that's suitable for
road use at the moment.

I must admit I'd prefer a cheaper, more traditionally built wheel,
but I wonder if I'd see any real gains without spending even more on
specialised parts and a custom build?

Riding is "light commuting"- mostly on rural roads in reasonable
condition. Sorry, should have included that.

Cheers,
W.

David Lloyd said:

Quoted message said:

Hi,
I'm wondering if I can usefully improve my bike with a nice
wheelset. Currently I'm running old fashioned and inexpensive
36-spoke
wheels- the rear's a 700c with a cheap hub and a fairly chunky Rigida
rim. The front's an ageing Campy Tipo on a Weinmann concave (and is a
27"/630mm). I feel this ought to offer plenty of potential for an
upgrade, but I don't know what these actually weigh, and don't have a
decent set of scales so stripping them to actually find out would be
of limited value.
The bike's built on a 531c frame and weighs about 9Kg or so, I
think.
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track
<http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe". Assuming these would make a difference, is
it
necessary to spend this much money to get close, or are we well into
diminishing returns territory?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
W.

These are track specific wheels, 21mm width, laced with 28 bladed
spokes in an exotic pattern. They would be wasted on a bike for
general riding, and they would hamper puncture repair out on the road.

? Anyway, track hubs don't tend to be sealed well - so no good for the road
for that reason.

Quoted message said:

Depends what you want them for. You'd get a noticable improvement by
going for modern components that are suited for the road, say 32 hole
CXP22s wired 3x onto Campag Veloce, shod in 23mm road tyres. It would
save your pocket as well.

They would be decent wheels - but not necessarily better or lighter, or much
lighter, than what W has already.

Get an electronic kitchen scale is my first bit of advice. Useful for
cooking and mailing as well as weighing bike bits!

~PB

I said:

Anyway, track hubs don't tend to be sealed well - so no good for
the road for that reason.

I see that comment doesn't apply to the wheels in question, so please
ignore.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

David Lloyd said:

Quoted message said:

<Quoting me>
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe".
Any thoughts?

These are track specific wheels, 21mm width, laced with 28 bladed
spokes in an exotic pattern. They would be wasted on a bike for
general riding, and they would hamper puncture repair out on the road.

I was under the impression they were a "crossover" design, with
reasonably well sealed bearings that would be OK for road use. Not as
robust as a proper road wheel but intended to be lighter.

Why would they make punture repair difficult? I can see that the
weird spoke setup would make truing harder, but the rim's pretty
standard, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Depends what you want them for. You'd get a noticable improvement by
going for modern components that are suited for the road, say 32 hole
CXP22s wired 3x onto Campag Veloce, shod in 23mm road tyres. It would
save your pocket as well.

That sounds like good advice, but the Veloce hubs seem to be cassette
only. I don't see a fixed option like the Cane Creeks.
From what I recall, Campy don't do a "track" hub that's suitable for
road use at the moment.

I must admit I'd prefer a cheaper, more traditionally built wheel,
but I wonder if I'd see any real gains without spending even more on
specialised parts and a custom build?

Riding is "light commuting"- mostly on rural roads in reasonable
condition. Sorry, should have included that.

Cheers,
W.

I see - you're looking for fixed gear. D'oh! Why didn't I realise
that. Being track wheels the Cane Creeks are bolt-on, not QR, hence
the difficulty in on-the-road repare, but that really is just for the
unprepared amongst us. I really must get my track bike out and give it
a go.

David Lloyd

Quoted message said:

Hi,
Thanks for the reply.

David Lloyd said:

Quoted message said:

<Quoting me>
I'm wondering if something like Cane Creek Volos Track <http://www.canecreek.com/volos-track-clincher-wheels.html> or maybe
something a little less exotic(!) would "transform the bike" or just
"help a little, maybe".
Any thoughts?

These are track specific wheels, 21mm width, laced with 28 bladed
spokes in an exotic pattern. They would be wasted on a bike for
general riding, and they would hamper puncture repair out on the road.

I was under the impression they were a "crossover" design, with
reasonably well sealed bearings that would be OK for road use. Not as
robust as a proper road wheel but intended to be lighter.

Why would they make punture repair difficult? I can see that the
weird spoke setup would make truing harder, but the rim's pretty
standard, isn't it?

Quoted message said:

Depends what you want them for. You'd get a noticable improvement by
going for modern components that are suited for the road, say 32 hole
CXP22s wired 3x onto Campag Veloce, shod in 23mm road tyres. It would
save your pocket as well.

That sounds like good advice, but the Veloce hubs seem to be cassette
only. I don't see a fixed option like the Cane Creeks.
From what I recall, Campy don't do a "track" hub that's suitable for
road use at the moment.

You could look up Miche. I think you'll find them to be road worthy.

Quoted message said:

I must admit I'd prefer a cheaper, more traditionally built wheel,
but I wonder if I'd see any real gains without spending even more on
specialised parts and a custom build?

No need to talk about custom builds. I swapped from a pair of poorly
built CPX14s on Chorus to a pair of Campag Scirrocos. The reduced
spoke count, front radial pattern and exotic rear pattern made for a
eye-openingly grin-worthy ride. If you drop from 36 spokes to 32 you
might feel a positive difference in drag. Finding an outlet for such
wheels in fixed gear might be a bit more tricky than for straight
geared road wheels.

Quoted message said:

Riding is "light commuting"- mostly on rural roads in reasonable
condition. Sorry, should have included that.

Best go for robust wheels for commuting, IMHO. Track wheels,
especially expensive ones, will be engineered to suit purpose, lossing
as much strength as physically possible. Pistes are not riddled with
pot-holes and stray half bricks.

David Lloyd

Hi,

Mark T said:

First off, I'm guessing you've got an elderly frame so check the spacing
on your frame and fork[1][2].

Yes, the rear's 126mm, the front 100. Could be cold set if necessary
or a narrower hub could be spaced to suit.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the Velos Track wheels had 120mm spacing and aren't
intended to run normal gears.

Indeed. I'm assuming I can space them to suit, and the bike's already
been Fixed. I should probably have been explicit about this but I
thought it was reasonably clear from the wheelset I was asking about.

Quoted message said:

.... They're also rather expensive,

Light wheels seem to be expensive!

Quoted message said:

In terms of bling, value and weight, Shimano's road wheelsets are amongst
the best. The Mavic Ksyrium range beat them at bling, but maybe lose out
on value. Roval wheels are worth a looksie too.

But all are for geared bikes. I see Mavic do a track wheelset
("ellipse"... that doesn't bode well for staying true! :-) with sealed
bearings but they arn't much cheaper and weigh the best part of 2Kg.

Quoted message said:

If you want something that can be more easily maintained you can't go
wrong with some Open Pro rims, expensive butted spokes and a hub of your
choice.

I came across HubJub offering LeVeL hubs on Mavic CXP33s for similar
money (about £170/rear). They seem to be about 1.7 Kg or so for a
"pair", assuming I can get a reasonable front match for a little less
than the cost of the rear.

Quoted message said:

... I'm riding relatively heavy wheels at
the moment and the bike is nowhere near as lively as it would be with
lighter hoops. There's no difference just trundling around, but when the
power goes down I miss that little extra something.

I guess it's that little extra something- how big is it and how much
does it cost- that I'm wondering about..! :-)

Cheers,
W.

Quoted message said:

I see - you're looking for fixed gear. D'oh! Why didn't I realise
that.

Heh, I just realised that too 🙂

As to the lock nut thingies, quick release levers can be used instead. A
lot of people think it's a Bad Idea thobut, and QRs do make it a wee bit
harder to get optimum chain tension.

Quoted message said:

I came across HubJub offering LeVeL hubs on Mavic CXP33s for similar
money (about £170/rear). They seem to be about 1.7 Kg or so for a
"pair", assuming I can get a reasonable front match for a little less
than the cost of the rear.

If you're going the design-your-own wheelset route, consider also Open Pro
rims - even lighter than CXP33s. Any bike shop worth taking your business
to will be more than happy to order whatever components you desire and
build the wheel up, so you've got almost limitless choice. This won't make
your decision any easier tho :-)

Mark T said:

Quoted message said:

I came across HubJub offering LeVeL hubs on Mavic CXP33s for similar
money (about £170/rear). They seem to be about 1.7 Kg or so for a
"pair", assuming I can get a reasonable front match for a little less
than the cost of the rear.

If you're going the design-your-own wheelset route, consider also
Open Pro rims - even lighter than CXP33s.

Open Pro's are probably the better option, seem robust enough for Audax use
(I have them, several friends who do far more miles than me have them).
Numerous wheel builders use them.

I don't know if any of the hubs which On-One do might suit ? Whilst their
off-road hubs will be 135, they do the Pompino with a narrow rear hub.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

<[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming I can space them to suit

Judging by the diagram on the Cane Creek site, that wouldn't be easy. They
use a proprietary axle with press-fit bearings and endcaps.

James Thomson

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> a écrit:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, track hubs don't tend to be sealed well - so no
good for the road for that reason.

Quoted message said:

I see that comment doesn't apply to the wheels in question,
so please ignore.

Even if it did apply (and many track hubs use cartridge bearings these days)
I think you're overstating the issue. Certainly, seals are a benefit for
hubs used in all weathers, but not very long ago nearly all road hub seals
were rudimentary. Classic Campag Record track hubs used the same simple
dustcap and plain cone as their road hubs, and both would last for many,
many years of road use with an occasional strip and re-grease. I've got
plenty of road miles on classic Record and modern Dura-Ace track hubs,
neither of which are sealed.

James Thomson