Re: Sit and reach and Running

Prisoner at War said:

Hey, I noticed that too! That the torso, particular the lower back,
seems to be a big factor in flexibility on the toe-touch and sit-and-
reach...sure, you still feel it mainly in the legs, the hamstrings and
buttocks, but when my back is properly warmed up and loosened I think
I increase overall flexibility by like a good ~35%!!

The spine does not have that much flexibility unless you are a circus
freak. The discs are not that soft and are surrounded by small muscles
and connecting tissues that is extremely susceptible to bending. As
one ages they become less able to adjust to compression.

When taking on a forward bend you may round the back to reach those
toes. But for many people, with time this we result in back pain as
weaker discs are compromised in the posterior spine. Practice this
extreme rounding on a regular basis and eventually something will give.
After all we are only talking about concentric sheets of collagen
fibers. They do not have the power to regenerate. Any damage is
permanent.

In yoga we go to great lengths to protect the spine in forward bends.
One trick is to hold the hands behind the back in reverse namaste or by
simply holding the elbows. The point is to allow the erect spine open
at the chest to come forward with out compromising the breath.

All of the bend happens as the hips/pelvis rotates forward against the
hamstring and psoas muscles. After taking a bend to the "maximum",
stretching the leg muscles, then it is possible to round the spine
gently without compromising the breath. Sometimes I think of the
breath as biofeedback. When it becomes difficult to breath I am doing
something wrong.

For many of us we may not immediately be able to touch the floor or
even our knees. Back in my stiff days I would practice forward bends
by coming forward over a piano bench with a stack of books and a towel
to rest my forehead. By resting the forehead in any pose, one relaxes
and can hold the stretch longer.

Also consider "L" pose. Simple put the hands on the wall at hip height
and step back until the spine is elongated. Hold this as long as you
can. Watch that the feet are parallel and evenly touching the ground.
Pull up the quad muscles to intensify the stretch. Try to find focus
to avoid boredom.
--
~Stu

Stu said:

The spine does not have that much flexibility unless you are a circus
freak. The discs are not that soft and are surrounded by small muscles
and connecting tissues that is extremely susceptible to bending. As
one ages they become less able to adjust to compression.

I'm concerned about my lower back, since I have a herniated disc there
and I am getting older but doing stuff like deadlifts and squats (295-
lbs. is my max for both moves). I think I'm helping things out by
doing back stretches, and I try to be careful about stretching -- no
bouncing like when young and no sudden movements, etc. -- but I can
almost swear that loosening the back helps tremendously with
flexibility, especially on something like the toe-touch!

Quoted message said:

When taking on a forward bend you may round the back to reach those
toes. But for many people, with time this we result in back pain as
weaker discs are compromised in the posterior spine. Practice this
extreme rounding on a regular basis and eventually something will give.

That's just my fear! "Runner's World" magazine advises against the
traditional toe-touch or sit-n-reach, while some books like
"Stretching Anatomy" claim it's okay for most folks if done properly
(the whole debate reminds me of squat and deadlift disclaimers)....

Quoted message said:

After all we are only talking about concentric sheets of collagen
fibers. They do not have the power to regenerate. Any damage is
permanent.

Damn! 'Cause the jelly is totally gone from that herniated disc of
mine, and now my left elbow area has got a permanent weakness to it,
too...I think I'll give up running and weight-lifting in another ten
or twenty years and devote myself exclusively to yoga-type stuff....

Quoted message said:

In yoga we go to great lengths to protect the spine in forward bends.
One trick is to hold the hands behind the back in reverse namaste

Yo, I was just trying this in the gym yesterday and kinda depressed
that I couldn't! Not even close...I was nowhere at the point where I
could envision accomplishing it with a bit of effort...of course, back
in high school this was nothing at all...damn, old age really
sucks....

Quoted message said:

or by
simply holding the elbows. The point is to allow the erect spine open
at the chest to come forward with out compromising the breath.

I'll try this latter move -- though I can't exactly reach my elbows
just yet, I can at least imagine being able to do so with some
practice. It's fun to stretch, and I'm so sorry I stopped regular
sessions long ago....

Quoted message said:

All of the bend happens as the hips/pelvis rotates forward against the
hamstring and psoas muscles. After taking a bend to the "maximum",
stretching the leg muscles, then it is possible to round the spine
gently without compromising the breath. Sometimes I think of the
breath as biofeedback. When it becomes difficult to breath I am doing
something wrong.

That's a very interesting concept...I never thought of it that way...I
just figured something was wrong with my breathing -- as ridiculous as
that sounds -- but I never considered that it could be an indication
of wrong technique!

When struggling under a bench press, I almost always fail due to
breathing technique -- either an outright lack of breath, or breathing
out too fast or too slow, or just breathing out or in when I shouldn't
be...proper breathing contributes 100% -- yep, ***a full hundred
percent*** -- to the success of my lift at certain crucial "sticking
points" in the arc of a movement, oftentimes...amazing...I wonder if
my lifting stats would go up as a result of yoga...most likely...I'd
like to get started with yoga for real one day...maybe that'll be my
New Year's Resolution! I'll do yoga on my off-days, when I'm
recuperating from strength training workouts, which I do every other
day....

Quoted message said:

For many of us we may not immediately be able to touch the floor or
even our knees. Back in my stiff days I would practice forward bends
by coming forward over a piano bench with a stack of books and a towel
to rest my forehead. By resting the forehead in any pose, one relaxes
and can hold the stretch longer.

You're right about simply relaxing and leaving the body in a certain
position. I actually have a split machine that locks in the legs at
various user-selected angles...time to take that out of the closet!

Quoted message said:

Also consider "L" pose. Simple put the hands on the wall at hip height
and step back until the spine is elongated. Hold this as long as you
can. Watch that the feet are parallel and evenly touching the ground.
Pull up the quad muscles to intensify the stretch. Try to find focus
to avoid boredom.
--
~Stu

Interesting, thought-provoking post...I believe strength and speed and
endurance are incomplete without flexibility...what a pity time's
working against me now!

Prisoner at War <[email hidden]> wrote in news:47ba02f5-2298-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I'm concerned about my lower back, since I have a herniated disc there
and I am getting older but doing stuff like deadlifts and squats (295-
lbs. is my max for both moves).

Well just STOP IT you dumbass!

Your friend,
Bill Rogers

Stu said:

In yoga we go to great lengths to protect the spine in forward bends.
One trick is to hold the hands behind the back in reverse namaste or by
simply holding the elbows.

I was thinking of my lesson last night in terms of that and yes, we do
seem to take effort to protect the back. In forward bends we reach up
first then go forward from the hips holding the core muscles to provide
support. In standing forward fold we think about tipping the pelvis back
which will increase the stretch on the legs and reduce it on the back.
The back and head stay more relaxed.

An introduction to forward folds I was told was to use a table to rest
the hands on and go to 90 degrees rather than lower. This reminds me
a little of a preparation we have for Down Dog where we walk away from
the wall keeping nose and hands (above head) in contact. The people who
clean the mirrors at our gym must love us ;-)

Child Pose is a moderate back stretch, but it is moderate and the back
is elongating in that position. Cat and Cow are also low load back
movements. Whenever we twist we ensure the back is long and straight
and are told that it is important not to hunch up.

Some of the back bends we do are pretty extreme though including Cobra
although we are told in Cobra to drive mainly from the back muscles with
little pressure in the hands. Camel done to the extent my teacher does
it is quite a sharp bend, though mainly aimed as a thigh stretch.

I plan to look in my next karate class at how others are doing forward
bends and compare. It's good to think of things like the back so I'm
glad I'm now aware of it.

A generally stronger back and core is helpful in life at reducing back
pain or preventing it so, especially with a desk based job, I'm glad I
do this kind of exercise. I'm one of a couple of people in the office
who have one of those fit-balls to sit on. Much easier to adjust than
the complex chairs :-)

Quoted message said:

The point is to allow the erect spine open
at the chest to come forward with out compromising the breath.

We were concentrating on breathing last night using the Uiji(?) breath -
a room full of nasal breathing Darth Vaders. It's interesting.

Thanks

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <[email hidden]>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twilight Zone