ice axe length

In message <[email hidden]>, pp
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Hi

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking but
am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been told
that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3 inches from
the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this. Is there a way
I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ... maybe 5'9"

TIA
Phil

http://www.alpine-guides.com/winter%20walking%20article.htm

http://www.escape2.co.uk/advice/choosing_ice_axes.htm

Regards,

--
Neil Pugh

pp said:

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking but
am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been told
that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3 inches from
the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this. Is there a way
I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ... maybe 5'9"

"The correct length" actually leaves quite a bit of room for variation,
as one can see in the various arguments going on about longer vs.
shorter, and while each side raises points that sound convincing the
fact is people negotiate steep icy ground successfully with either if
they get familiar with them and practice technique.

If you get a 60cm or 65cm one at your height it's very unlikely to be
too long, and I (at 5'8"😉 get away with a 50 (bought as a mixed climbing
/walking axe) so it certainly won't be too short (I wouldn't mind a 55
if I ever replace mine). The important thing is to get happy with
whatever you get and practice at using it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"pp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking
but am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been
told that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3
inches from the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this.
Is there a way I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ...
maybe 5'9"

When an article mentioning ice axe length was published in The Scottish
Mountaineer, it led to a long debate about what the correct length might be.

If you want to read it, the article is at
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/nl/43d.html
and the remarks at
http://www.mountaineering-scotland.org.uk/pitch-in/iceaxes.html

Peter Clinch said:

pp said:

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking but
am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been told
that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3 inches from
the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this. Is there a way
I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ... maybe 5'9"

"The correct length" actually leaves quite a bit of room for variation,
as one can see in the various arguments going on about longer vs.
shorter, and while each side raises points that sound convincing the
fact is people negotiate steep icy ground successfully with either if
they get familiar with them and practice technique.

If you get a 60cm or 65cm one at your height it's very unlikely to be
too long, and I (at 5'8"😉 get away with a 50 (bought as a mixed climbing
/walking axe) so it certainly won't be too short (I wouldn't mind a 55
if I ever replace mine). The important thing is to get happy with
whatever you get and practice at using it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I'm of an age where my first axe was long enough to be a walking
stick. As soon as I progressed to ice climbing in the early 60's, it
and it's companion were cut down to 55cms. I only walk now and I take
one of these and that is perfectly adequate for my 5ft 10 height.

An axe is not a walking stick. It's main purpose for a walker is to
arrest slips - these are going to occur on steep ground and as the axe
must always be uphill of you, a shorter axe is easier to handle
because of the slope.

It is interesting to interrelate walking poles and axes. There was an
extensive discussion on this about a year ago here. I'm only a fairly
recent convert to poles and do find them useful in most snow
conditions, but they must never be considered as a replacement for an
axe as a safety device - there is no way that you can reliably stop a
slide if you have a pole strapped to each wrist. The danger I have
perceived is continuing on with the poles onto ground where an axe is
the necessary safety precaution - particularly when descending.

Rob

Rob G said:

An axe is not a walking stick. It's main purpose for a walker is to
arrest slips

I would dispute that, saying its main use is to ensure that slips don't
happen in the first place.

Quoted message said:

It is interesting to interrelate walking poles and axes. There was an
extensive discussion on this about a year ago here. I'm only a fairly
recent convert to poles and do find them useful in most snow
conditions, but they must never be considered as a replacement for an
axe as a safety device - there is no way that you can reliably stop a
slide if you have a pole strapped to each wrist.

Self arrest using a pole works the same way as using an axe, only less
effectively and more awkwardly. Whether you can reliably stop is a
function of slope (angle and snow/ice consistency) as well as what
you're using as a brake. I've had to self-arrest twice over the years,
and on both occasions it was with a pole (I was skiing, and the skis
made life more awkward than the poles TBH). While there are places an
axe will stop you that a pole won't, if you slip on water ice then an
axe won't actually be much use and there are plenty of places a pole
/will/ stop you, so one needs to get out of the "an axe is safe, a pole
isn't" frame of mind.

As previously suggested, the main point is to stop you falling over in
the first place, and there are places on more benign ground where a pole
can actually do that more easily than an axe (point in and stand on the
basket on the uphill side being an obvious case in point). On our July
Norway trip we didn't take axes and used a pole each for all of our
security on steep snow needs, and they were fine for the job.

Quoted message said:

The danger I have
perceived is continuing on with the poles onto ground where an axe is
the necessary safety precaution - particularly when descending.

Absolutely. One needs to keep careful tabs on when poles aren't up to
the job if you lose your footing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Rob G said:

An axe is not a walking stick. It's main purpose for a walker is to
arrest slips

I would dispute that, saying its main use is to ensure that slips don't
happen in the first place.

Quoted message said:

It is interesting to interrelate walking poles and axes. There was an
extensive discussion on this about a year ago here. I'm only a fairly
recent convert to poles and do find them useful in most snow
conditions, but they must never be considered as a replacement for an
axe as a safety device - there is no way that you can reliably stop a
slide if you have a pole strapped to each wrist.

Self arrest using a pole works the same way as using an axe, only less
effectively and more awkwardly. Whether you can reliably stop is a
function of slope (angle and snow/ice consistency) as well as what
you're using as a brake. I've had to self-arrest twice over the years,
and on both occasions it was with a pole (I was skiing, and the skis
made life more awkward than the poles TBH). While there are places an
axe will stop you that a pole won't, if you slip on water ice then an
axe won't actually be much use and there are plenty of places a pole
/will/ stop you, so one needs to get out of the "an axe is safe, a pole
isn't" frame of mind.

As previously suggested, the main point is to stop you falling over in
the first place, and there are places on more benign ground where a pole
can actually do that more easily than an axe (point in and stand on the
basket on the uphill side being an obvious case in point). On our July
Norway trip we didn't take axes and used a pole each for all of our
security on steep snow needs, and they were fine for the job.

Quoted message said:

The danger I have
perceived is continuing on with the poles onto ground where an axe is
the necessary safety precaution - particularly when descending.

Absolutely. One needs to keep careful tabs on when poles aren't up to
the job if you lose your footing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter

Without starting to argue about semantics and pedantry, I would be
interested in your thoughts on how an axe "prevents slips occurring in
the first place" in a walking situation. If by a "slip" you are
thinking of a "slide", then I would agree with you but what I am
meaning is the initial situation where the footing goes and you fall
into the slope and, if the axe has been placed properly, any further
movement down the slope is arrested. I cannot see how the axe
prevents such a slip (loss of footing) in the first place.

Does your website on walking poles include any guidance on how to use
them as a brake?. The mind boggles as to how this can be done. One
has attached to each wrist a thin aluminium tube which is 1000 to
1200mm long (compare with one sturdy ice axe 550mm long attached
possibly by a long trace) and you have to manouevre these flailing
shafts as you fall such that presumably you can get a hand, with the
other pole attached to it, near the bottom of the other so the
leverage is minimal, and drive it into the snow. That would strike me
as difficult in the extreme unless extensively practiced and that is
not what most of us can do nowadays with so little snow.

What does worry me is that this is being stated as an effective
procedure in a thread about buying an ice axe by, one assumes, someone
who doesn't have an axe and is unfamiliar with walking on snow, and
could well take the comment from a regular contributor to this forum
as being acceptable practice. I would put it that the use of a walking
pole as a safety device when snow walking is not acceptable practice
and is would be dangerous to say the least if attempted by someone
without as much experience as Peter . I've got 45 years winter
experience and I would not like to attempt to stop myself with a
walking pole.

It may well be considered that any advise given on usernet forums is
given freely, without prejudice and with the attitude that is up to
the receiver to use his judgement as to whether it is acceptable
advise or not. I don't think this is realistic as the OP wouldn't be
asking for advise if he didn't mean to act upon it. We therefore have
a "Duty of Care" to anyone who would use any advise we give to ensure
that it does not put them in a situation which is dangerous.

Rob

Rob

Rob G said:

Without starting to argue about semantics and pedantry, I would be
interested in your thoughts on how an axe "prevents slips occurring in
the first place" in a walking situation.

if it's the sort of ground where you're walking without using your hands
at all then it's a fair point, but OTOH that's not usually the sort of
place you'll be taking off, and where a pole will actively prevent a
slip to start with.

Quoted message said:

thinking of a "slide", then I would agree with you but what I am
meaning is the initial situation where the footing goes and you fall
into the slope and, if the axe has been placed properly, any further
movement down the slope is arrested. I cannot see how the axe
prevents such a slip (loss of footing) in the first place.

By being a point of direct support, so you don't fall.

Quoted message said:

Does your website on walking poles include any guidance on how to use
them as a brake?. The mind boggles as to how this can be done.

It doesn't, but the answer is the same way as with an axe.

Quoted message said:

has attached to each wrist a thin aluminium tube which is 1000 to
1200mm long (compare with one sturdy ice axe 550mm long attached
possibly by a long trace) and you have to manouevre these flailing
shafts as you fall such that presumably you can get a hand, with the
other pole attached to it, near the bottom of the other so the
leverage is minimal, and drive it into the snow. That would strike me
as difficult in the extreme unless extensively practiced and that is
not what most of us can do nowadays with so little snow.

It's bloody awkward, but the two times I've done it in anger were with
no prior practice aside from with an axe. I was sliding down slopes and
not slowing down, I had poles in my hands and I set to work using them
to arrest my slide. It worked on both occasions.

Quoted message said:

What does worry me is that this is being stated as an effective
procedure

For some values of "effective". There is, as I previously suggested, a
spectrum of safety with steep water ice impossible to stop on with
anything at one end ground either flat or fluffy enough at the other
that you couldn't slide down it if you wanted to. Somewhere between
those two extremes are a place where a pole becomes useless and an axe
will work, and the steeper and slippier it is, the more the axe will be
important.

Quoted message said:

in a thread about buying an ice axe by, one assumes, someone
who doesn't have an axe and is unfamiliar with walking on snow, and
could well take the comment from a regular contributor to this forum
as being acceptable practice. I would put it that the use of a walking
pole as a safety device when snow walking is not acceptable practice
and is would be dangerous to say the least if attempted by someone
without as much experience as Peter . I've got 45 years winter
experience and I would not like to attempt to stop myself with a
walking pole.

Did lots of snow walking in Norway back in July, we didn't have axes
with us, nor did anyone else we met. Quite a few poles in evidence
though. Lots of skiing is done without axes on steep snow, and no
shortage of people slipping and falling doing that, so how come that's
"not acceptable practice"?
Never have I said that a pole is a substitute for an axe, simply that on
more benign ground it is adequate, and being an intrinsically better
walking stick is actually /better/ on benign ground where a slip is
unlikely to lead anywhere except a cold backside.
A pole is considerably less effective on steep ground where you are
wanting to use your hands to help support you.

Quoted message said:

It may well be considered that any advise given on usernet forums is
given freely, without prejudice and with the attitude that is up to
the receiver to use his judgement as to whether it is acceptable
advise or not. I don't think this is realistic as the OP wouldn't be
asking for advise if he didn't mean to act upon it. We therefore have
a "Duty of Care" to anyone who would use any advise we give to ensure
that it does not put them in a situation which is dangerous.

Which is why I specifically suggested an axe to him, probably 60-65cm
would be okay and to make sure he got practice at using it. I would
also suggest poles in benign territory where you won't be going anywhere
as they take a lot of the fatigue away from post holing, and fatigue is
one thing that's led to many accidents over the years. If in doubt,
have the axe in your hand rather than a pole, but there's plenty of
places where there's no doubt you won't go anywhere. "Snow walking"
covers a lot of ground.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Rob G said:

Without starting to argue about semantics and pedantry, I would be
interested in your thoughts on how an axe "prevents slips occurring in
the first place" in a walking situation.

if it's the sort of ground where you're walking without using your hands
at all then it's a fair point, but OTOH that's not usually the sort of
place you'll be taking off, and where a pole will actively prevent a
slip to start with.

Quoted message said:

thinking of a "slide", then I would agree with you but what I am
meaning is the initial situation where the footing goes and you fall
into the slope and, if the axe has been placed properly, any further
movement down the slope is arrested. I cannot see how the axe
prevents such a slip (loss of footing) in the first place.

By being a point of direct support, so you don't fall.

Quoted message said:

Does your website on walking poles include any guidance on how to use
them as a brake?. The mind boggles as to how this can be done.

It doesn't, but the answer is the same way as with an axe.

Quoted message said:

has attached to each wrist a thin aluminium tube which is 1000 to
1200mm long (compare with one sturdy ice axe 550mm long attached
possibly by a long trace) and you have to manouevre these flailing
shafts as you fall such that presumably you can get a hand, with the
other pole attached to it, near the bottom of the other so the
leverage is minimal, and drive it into the snow. That would strike me
as difficult in the extreme unless extensively practiced and that is
not what most of us can do nowadays with so little snow.

It's bloody awkward, but the two times I've done it in anger were with
no prior practice aside from with an axe. I was sliding down slopes and
not slowing down, I had poles in my hands and I set to work using them
to arrest my slide. It worked on both occasions.

Quoted message said:

What does worry me is that this is being stated as an effective
procedure

For some values of "effective". There is, as I previously suggested, a
spectrum of safety with steep water ice impossible to stop on with
anything at one end ground either flat or fluffy enough at the other
that you couldn't slide down it if you wanted to. Somewhere between
those two extremes are a place where a pole becomes useless and an axe
will work, and the steeper and slippier it is, the more the axe will be
important.

Quoted message said:

in a thread about buying an ice axe by, one assumes, someone
who doesn't have an axe and is unfamiliar with walking on snow, and
could well take the comment from a regular contributor to this forum
as being acceptable practice. I would put it that the use of a walking
pole as a safety device when snow walking is not acceptable practice
and is would be dangerous to say the least if attempted by someone
without as much experience as Peter . I've got 45 years winter
experience and I would not like to attempt to stop myself with a
walking pole.

Did lots of snow walking in Norway back in July, we didn't have axes
with us, nor did anyone else we met. Quite a few poles in evidence
though. Lots of skiing is done without axes on steep snow, and no
shortage of people slipping and falling doing that, so how come that's
"not acceptable practice"?
Never have I said that a pole is a substitute for an axe, simply that on
more benign ground it is adequate, and being an intrinsically better
walking stick is actually /better/ on benign ground where a slip is
unlikely to lead anywhere except a cold backside.
A pole is considerably less effective on steep ground where you are
wanting to use your hands to help support you.

Quoted message said:

It may well be considered that any advise given on usernet forums is
given freely, without prejudice and with the attitude that is up to
the receiver to use his judgement as to whether it is acceptable
advise or not. I don't think this is realistic as the OP wouldn't be
asking for advise if he didn't mean to act upon it. We therefore have
a "Duty of Care" to anyone who would use any advise we give to ensure
that it does not put them in a situation which is dangerous.

Which is why I specifically suggested an axe to him, probably 60-65cm
would be okay and to make sure he got practice at using it. I would
also suggest poles in benign territory where you won't be going anywhere
as they take a lot of the fatigue away from post holing, and fatigue is
one thing that's led to many accidents over the years. If in doubt,
have the axe in your hand rather than a pole, but there's plenty of
places where there's no doubt you won't go anywhere. "Snow walking"
covers a lot of ground.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Thanks Peter - my concern is similar to last year's discussion on this
topic, that we make it quite clear here that OK walking poles can stop
you if you really know what you are doing and are on easy slopes, but
that the ice axe is a must if the slope is for instance steep or
convex - ie NOT benign !

Having been in a situation last winter where I was quite happily
walking along this broad ridge (Ben a' Ghlo), the descent suddenly
steepened and the snow slope I was on became convex, and I became
aware that I wasn't as stable or sure of my footing as I would like.
I didn't change to the axe because of the hassle, and the ice and snow
squall at that particular time, and in thinking about it afterwards I
realise that that was raising the hazard level. There is a danger I
now see of going to far with the poles only and then losing it, or
having considerable difficulty on a dangerous slope changing over.
Something to be watch and be aware of.

Rob

Rob

Rob G said:

There is a danger I
now see of going to far with the poles only and then losing it, or
having considerable difficulty on a dangerous slope changing over.
Something to be watch and be aware of.

From http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/hmn4.htm, an account of
finding oneself without a pole, rather than with a pole but not an axe,
but exactly the same basic problem...

"Despite this being just past midsummer, at these high levels (often
over 1000m) there's still a lot of old snow to cross. The flat sections
aren't much of a bother, but sometimes it's sloping banks with a
distinctly unpleasant run out of boulders or a loch with nowhere easy to
get out, so take your choice between smashing yourself up a bit or
getting hypothermia. Hmmmm... The first traverse like this wasn't
especially big, perhaps 50m, and Roos set to it without too much concern
so I followed. After about a half of it I paused: I had to keep the
uphill hand down on the snow pretty much the whole time I was kicking
steps so it was getting pretty numb, and my gloves were in the pack.
Along with the poles, which would have made life easier and much safer
too, but taking the pack off and extracting it all would have been more
dangerous than carrying on, so I carried on. Once on the far side I
awarded myself a good supply of Bloody Stupid Points as I warmed up my
hand, and resolved the next time I'd actually think in advance and do
some preparation."

Subsequent snow traverses used the poles, and gloves.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Thanks everyone for the advice. There's a lot there to think about!
Phil

"pp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking
but am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been
told that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3
inches from the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this.
Is there a way I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ...
maybe 5'9"

TIA
Phil

So easy to get into that situation.

Like the idea of BSP's - are they like those ones you get on your
driving licence occasionally (could be called BSP's too !), and
accumulate to say 12 and then you get zapped ?

Rob

Peter Clinch said:

Rob G said:

There is a danger I
now see of going to far with the poles only and then losing it, or
having considerable difficulty on a dangerous slope changing over.
Something to be watch and be aware of.

From http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/hmn4.htm, an account of
finding oneself without a pole, rather than with a pole but not an axe,
but exactly the same basic problem...

"Despite this being just past midsummer, at these high levels (often
over 1000m) there's still a lot of old snow to cross. The flat sections
aren't much of a bother, but sometimes it's sloping banks with a
distinctly unpleasant run out of boulders or a loch with nowhere easy to
get out, so take your choice between smashing yourself up a bit or
getting hypothermia. Hmmmm... The first traverse like this wasn't
especially big, perhaps 50m, and Roos set to it without too much concern
so I followed. After about a half of it I paused: I had to keep the
uphill hand down on the snow pretty much the whole time I was kicking
steps so it was getting pretty numb, and my gloves were in the pack.
Along with the poles, which would have made life easier and much safer
too, but taking the pack off and extracting it all would have been more
dangerous than carrying on, so I carried on. Once on the far side I
awarded myself a good supply of Bloody Stupid Points as I warmed up my
hand, and resolved the next time I'd actually think in advance and do
some preparation."

Subsequent snow traverses used the poles, and gloves.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Phil
Can I enquire as to whether you are Scotland or England based and what
sort of walking you are going to do ? If this is a purchase 'just-in-
case' and it is for what Peter would call 'benign walking' ie
relatively straightforward stuff that is not challenging gravity too
seriously, then almost any axe will do. It's the application of the
axe that is the key, not the style or length particularly. It's only
when you start to become technical in any manner that the
characteristics of the tool start to become important.

Rob

pp said:

Thanks everyone for the advice. There's a lot there to think about!
Phil

"pp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi

I wish to buy an ice axe (a Grivel Munro) to be used mainly for walking
but am confused by the advice on choosing the correct length. I've been
told that one way is to hold the axe and the point should be about 3
inches from the ground but I want to buy online and am unable to do this.
Is there a way I can get the correct length? I am around 5'8" tall ...
maybe 5'9"

TIA
Phil

Rob G said:

Rob

Peter Clinch said:

Rob G said:

There is a danger I
now see of going to far with the poles only and then losing it, or
having considerable difficulty on a dangerous slope changing over.
Something to be watch and be aware of.

From http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/hmn4.htm, an account of
finding oneself without a pole, rather than with a pole but not an axe,
but exactly the same basic problem...

"Despite this being just past midsummer, at these high levels (often
over 1000m) there's still a lot of old snow to cross. The flat sections
aren't much of a bother, but sometimes it's sloping banks with a
distinctly unpleasant run out of boulders or a loch with nowhere easy to
get out, so take your choice between smashing yourself up a bit or
getting hypothermia. Hmmmm... The first traverse like this wasn't
especially big, perhaps 50m, and Roos set to it without too much concern
so I followed. After about a half of it I paused: I had to keep the
uphill hand down on the snow pretty much the whole time I was kicking
steps so it was getting pretty numb, and my gloves were in the pack.
Along with the poles, which would have made life easier and much safer
too, but taking the pack off and extracting it all would have been more
dangerous than carrying on, so I carried on. Once on the far side I
awarded myself a good supply of Bloody Stupid Points as I warmed up my
hand, and resolved the next time I'd actually think in advance and do
some preparation."

Quoted message said:

So easy to get into that situation.

Like the idea of BSP's - are they like those ones you get on your
driving licence occasionally (could be called BSP's too !), and
accumulate to say 12 and then you get zapped ?

Oh yes, I've gained some BSPs in my time, usually from deciding too
late that it is time for crampons. That and starting a conversation
with PS about PS :-)
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Geal Charn above Glen Markie
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/Oct07/wh11.htm

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rob G said:

has attached to each wrist a thin aluminium tube which is 1000 to
1200mm long (compare with one sturdy ice axe 550mm long attached
possibly by a long trace) and you have to manouevre these flailing
shafts as you fall such that presumably you can get a hand, with the
other pole attached to it, near the bottom of the other so the
leverage is minimal, and drive it into the snow. That would strike me
as difficult in the extreme unless extensively practiced and that is
not what most of us can do nowadays with so little snow.

It's bloody awkward, but the two times I've done it in anger were with
no prior practice aside from with an axe. I was sliding down slopes and
not slowing down, I had poles in my hands and I set to work using them
to arrest my slide. It worked on both occasions.

I would second this. I am in no way justifying using the pole as a
replacement for an ice axe or good winter skills training, but in my opinion
you use what you have to hand and I imagine that if it is a choice between
jamming a pole in the ground as hard as you can or falling over an edge,
you'd do what you could to make it work. In the same way, you'd jam your
feet, hands and any other part of your body into anything or grab anything
that would arrest your fall/slide.

"Rob G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 14 Nov, 09:16, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote:
Having been in a situation last winter where I was quite happily
walking along this broad ridge (Ben a' Ghlo), the descent suddenly
steepened and the snow slope I was on became convex, and I became
aware that I wasn't as stable or sure of my footing as I would like.
I didn't change to the axe because of the hassle, and the ice and snow
squall at that particular time, and in thinking about it afterwards I
realise that that was raising the hazard level. There is a danger I
now see of going to far with the poles only and then losing it, or
having considerable difficulty on a dangerous slope changing over.
Something to be watch and be aware of.

I agree entirely but this raises another issue which is perception of risk.
Clearly your perception of the risk at the time you mention was different
from the one that you had later on reflection. Interestingly I have often
found that the mind can play tricks on you as to how difficult or easy
something can be and your mental condition and other factors come into play
a lot more - I remember walking in Picos and because of having bad exposure
at one point on the walk, it clouded my normal calm outlook on slopes for
all the rest(so that what I would normally happily cope with, I felt fearful
of). I am sure we can all relate to times when we have ventured places and
done things which in hindsight werent the most sensible course of action and
hopefully we learn from those. I guess that we have to be grateful for all
the times we come back ok and make sure we have the best training to hand to
know what to do if the situation doesnt favour us.

Rob

Rob Devereux said:

In the same way, you'd jam your
feet, hands and any other part of your body into anything or grab anything
that would arrest your fall/slide.

The recommended technique is get into a push-up position, head up the
slope, which will (so it's said...) help dig your toes in to slow you up.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In message <[email hidden]>
Rob G <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I'm of an age where my first axe was long enough to be a walking
stick. As soon as I progressed to ice climbing in the early 60's, it
and it's companion were cut down to 55cms. I only walk now and I take
one of these and that is perfectly adequate for my 5ft 10 height.

I'm about 5'7 and I started off with a longer walking axe of about 65cm
but always found it awkward and was much happier when I changed over to
a shorter mountaineering axe of 50-55cm.

Quoted message said:

An axe is not a walking stick. It's main purpose for a walker is to
arrest slips - these are going to occur on steep ground and as the axe
must always be uphill of you, a shorter axe is easier to handle
because of the slope.

The axe should be used to prevent a slip if at all possible. Arrest is a
last resort.

Quoted message said:

It is interesting to interrelate walking poles and axes. There was an
extensive discussion on this about a year ago here. I'm only a fairly
recent convert to poles and do find them useful in most snow
conditions, but they must never be considered as a replacement for an
axe as a safety device - there is no way that you can reliably stop a
slide if you have a pole strapped to each wrist.

I ski-tour and find myself on quite steep slopes with poles in both
hands and a pair of skis on my feet. However when crossing slopes I
seldom have my poles strapped to my wrist because one hand has to be on
the top of the lower pole and the other hand on a lower grip of the
upper pole. If you look at ski-touring poles you will see that they
usually are modified or customised with a grip or tape about 1/3 of
their length so that you can adapt to different angles of slope. If you
start to slide the best thing is to discard one pole and use the other
for an arrest. If practised it can work, but not as good as using an
axe. Sometimes on steep icy slopes I'll swap to a ski-touring ice-axe
(usually of a lighter weight construction than a mountaineering axe) in
the uphill hand and a pole in the downhill hand.

Quoted message said:

The danger I have perceived is continuing on with the poles onto
ground where an axe is the necessary safety precaution - particularly
when descending.

Agreed. When walking with an axe it is best to stow it (if
required) between your shoulder blades and the rucksack so that it is
very easy to take out with one hand and without stopping and removing
your sack. That way you are less tempted to carry on just a little
further without. If you use this method you'll notice that the ice-axe
loops on the rucksack are not needed.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In message <[email hidden]>
Rob G <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Does your website on walking poles include any guidance on how to use
them as a brake?. The mind boggles as to how this can be done. One
has attached to each wrist a thin aluminium tube which is 1000 to
1200mm long (compare with one sturdy ice axe 550mm long attached
possibly by a long trace) and you have to manouevre these flailing
shafts as you fall such that presumably you can get a hand, with the
other pole attached to it, near the bottom of the other so the
leverage is minimal, and drive it into the snow. That would strike me
as difficult in the extreme unless extensively practiced and that is
not what most of us can do nowadays with so little snow.

Don't attach them to your wrist if there is a likeliehood that you'll
need to use them for arrest. How do you think ski-tourers cope?

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"