Competent person

On 25/11/2007 18:31, the anonymous Brian G said,

Quoted message said:

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself
at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person"
to maintain my bikes?

I wouldn't have thought you will have any more repercussions than
someone with no formal qualifications in the appropriate area who
maintains their own car. (Holds hand up!)

I'm of the opinion that bits of paper don't count[1] - it's the ability
to do exactly what you've done that matters, which is to look at the
subject, understand how it's meant to work, then make it work. In the
old days, that type of person would be an "engineer", but these days
that seems to be a derogatory title.

[1] even though I have one :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

"Brian G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had a thought this morning as I was re-assembling a rear wheel I had been
servicing. I'm not a trained nor qualified mechanic, in that I've never
worked in the bike trade (or any trade) and I don't have any HNCs or NVQs
or whatever in the mechanic line. On the other hand I've been maintaining
and servicing my bicycles for many years; I rarely put a part on a bike
without either reading the instructions or examiing it carefully to see how
it works; and I keep reasonably up to date by reading and by watching this
NG and other sources.

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause injury.
I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself at risk of
some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person" to maintain
my bikes?

This post is, of course, anonymous, just in case ;-)

--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

A quasi legal definiton of competent
Someone who has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other
qualities.

Perhaps the experience, knowledge and qualities attributes would suffice.

MJP

Quoted message said:

I had a thought this morning as I was re-assembling a rear wheel I had
been servicing. I'm not a trained nor qualified mechanic, in that I've
never worked in the bike trade (or any trade) and I don't have any HNCs
or NVQs or whatever in the mechanic line. On the other hand I've been
maintaining and servicing my bicycles for many years; I rarely put a
part on a bike without either reading the instructions or examiing it
carefully to see how it works; and I keep reasonably up to date by
reading and by watching this NG and other sources.

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself
at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person"
to maintain my bikes?

No you'll be fine. If you build your own car you'll need an SVA and
everyone gets an MOT once a year - but as for bicycles your free to
build one up from scratch, if you like, the test is that if you have
the confidence to ride it then it must be all right. Which is a good
thing because from my experience, if you want a job doing really well
you usually have to do it yourself. I wouldn't say I've had unsafe
work from the local bike shops, but they must be constrained by time
and profits and no one cares so much about how your bike performs,
sounds and reliably lasts as you.

Here's another hypothetical, say I'm not a good wheel builder, but
none the less decide to sell a few wheels over the internet or
something. If a customer bought a wheel which then collapsed
resulting in injury, surely then you'd be in trouble under some part
of the law - fit for purpose maybe?

Regards,

Duncan

Brian G said:

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself
at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person"
to maintain my bikes?

No.

If you don't look after your bike properly then you must take the consequences, but the
essentials are so (relatively) basic that you would have to be really stupid to be
negligent.[1]

If you were _negligent_ in your duty of care towards others _and_ damage occurred then
yes. But the definition of /negligence/ is _not_ failing to be perfect. The standard is
variable and depends on, amongst other things, what a reasonable person would expect and
how foreseeable and connected the consequences are.

Suppose you were asked, as a bit of a bike buff, to check the kid next doors bike:
If you take on the job you'd be expected to spot a handlebar stem too high up. What
does somebody expect you to do in two minutes - certainly not clean the frame to look for
signs of cracking. Now what /exactly/ were you asked to do? Was it (a) Is the bike safe
(b) safe and functional (c) safe and functional and suitable for the child? This is why
as 'an expert' you need to control the agenda and not be distracted from it. BUT in
practice there are no reliable witnesses to who said what so don't worry about giving
'free advice'. BUT if you start to adjust and get it wrong that evidence could be used in
court. (eg you raised the saddle too far and it later broke.) HOWEVER for somebody with
some experience and _diligence_ you're simply not going to be making basic mistakes so
don't worry. If you're concerned about this then be methodical and be prepared to explain
your method.

Finally, suppose despite all the adjustments you still can't (for sake of argument) get
the brakes to work, or you're not happy about (for sake of argument) the state of the
tyres. You must tell it like it is. "I'm afraid you'll have to go down the LBS" or "I
don't think you should ride it in that condition".

[1] That's not to say there aren't plenty of ignorant and stupid people about but you (and
I suspect 99.9% of URCers) clearly don't fall into that category.

--
Peter Fox
Beer, dancing, cycling and lots more at www.eminent.demon.co.uk

Do you have insurance against being kicked to death by a donkey?

Relax.

Garry from Cork said:

Do you have insurance against being kicked to death by a donkey?

Relax.

Whatever you're drinking, I hope you're enjoying it.

--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

Brian G said:

Garry from Cork said:

Do you have insurance against being kicked to death by a donkey?

Quoted message said:

Relax.

Whatever you're drinking, I hope you're enjoying it.

--
Brian Gwww.wetwo.co.uk

More to the point, does the donkey man have insurance?

But quibbling aside, Garry from Cork is making a good and serious
point
In another NG (diving) someone was hypothesising the need for
insurance, not just for a diving accident per se, where you and the
victim (whose rellies then sue) are in a sense "in it together", but
for something like dropping a tank onto a promising ballet dancer's
foot ruining their career. Obviously you need insurance. But do you
carry insurance in case you drop a crate of guiness on same dancer's
foot whilst walking home from the off-licence.

It's easy to get carried away with what could conceivably happen, and
what is likely. And more to the point, are you going to individually
insure each and every unlikely risk, and no doubt miss the unlikely
risk which does happen?

Hywel

In message
<[email hidden]>,
Duncan Smith <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Here's another hypothetical, say I'm not a good wheel builder, but
none the less decide to sell a few wheels over the internet or
something. If a customer bought a wheel which then collapsed
resulting in injury, surely then you'd be in trouble under some part
of the law - fit for purpose maybe?

Well, yes, you would have potential liability under the Sales of goods
legislation.

More worryingly in terms of potential financial cost is the liability
for injuries caused - it's why businesses have public liability cover
--
Chris French

Duncan Smith said:

Quoted message said:

I had a thought this morning as I was re-assembling a rear wheel I had
been servicing. I'm not a trained nor qualified mechanic, in that I've
never worked in the bike trade (or any trade) and I don't have any HNCs
or NVQs or whatever in the mechanic line. On the other hand I've been
maintaining and servicing my bicycles for many years; I rarely put a
part on a bike without either reading the instructions or examiing it
carefully to see how it works; and I keep reasonably up to date by
reading and by watching this NG and other sources.

Quoted message said:

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself
at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person"
to maintain my bikes?

No you'll be fine. If you build your own car you'll need an SVA and
everyone gets an MOT once a year - but as for bicycles your free to
build one up from scratch, if you like, the test is that if you have
the confidence to ride it then it must be all right. Which is a good
thing because from my experience, if you want a job doing really well
you usually have to do it yourself. I wouldn't say I've had unsafe
work from the local bike shops, but they must be constrained by time
and profits and no one cares so much about how your bike performs,
sounds and reliably lasts as you.

I think this is similar to the endless debates about whether cyclists
"have insurance". The answer is generally that general 3rd party
insurance is widely bundled in with other policies such as house
contents, so most people will find they are already covered.

Quoted message said:

Here's another hypothetical, say I'm not a good wheel builder, but
none the less decide to sell a few wheels over the internet or
something. If a customer bought a wheel which then collapsed
resulting in injury, surely then you'd be in trouble under some part
of the law - fit for purpose maybe?

I would expect that selling for profit is excluded from such policies
as I've mentioned above, but that's just a guess.

James

Paul Boyd said:

I wouldn't have thought you will have any more repercussions than
someone with no formal qualifications in the appropriate area who
maintains their own car. (Holds hand up!)

while I agree with your sentiment ...should his bike steering,
stopping, etc. fail the repercussions are generally limited to a
grazed knee or two, should these things on your car fail.... it's a
bit more serious

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I think this is similar to the endless debates about whether cyclists
"have insurance". The answer is generally that general 3rd party
insurance is widely bundled in with other policies such as house
contents, so most people will find they are already covered.

Indeed. Eg Direct Line's cover is detailed here:

http://www.directline.com/home/HomePolicy.pdf

Section 2 G.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's another hypothetical, say I'm not a good wheel builder, but
none the less decide to sell a few wheels over the internet or
something. If a customer bought a wheel which then collapsed
resulting in injury, surely then you'd be in trouble under some part
of the law - fit for purpose maybe?

I would expect that selling for profit is excluded from such policies
as I've mentioned above, but that's just a guess.

Exclusion iii, 2

Of course all the people who don't believe you can make a bike crash claim
under this insurance probably won't believe you're insured for anything else
either...

cheers,
clive

Paul Boyd said:

On 25/11/2007 18:31, the anonymous Brian G said,

Quoted message said:

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting
myself at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called
"competent person" to maintain my bikes?

I wouldn't have thought you will have any more repercussions than
someone with no formal qualifications in the appropriate area who
maintains their own car. (Holds hand up!)

I'm of the opinion that bits of paper don't count[1] - it's the ability
to do exactly what you've done that matters, which is to look at the
subject, understand how it's meant to work, then make it work. In the
old days, that type of person would be an "engineer", but these days
that seems to be a derogatory title.

[1] even though I have one :-)

Bits of paper have some small value - they prove that you performed the
work required to obtain the bit of paper. Some holders of bits of paper
are exceptionally capable. Others are less so. Similarly, some folks
without bits of paper are exceptionally capable while other are, again,
less so. There is a correlation between capability and bits of paper
but it is not as strong a correlation as many might think.

All other things being equal, I'd probably take the person with the bit
of paper than the one without, if only because the bit of paper
demonstrates some amount of commitment to the area of study in question.

hyweldavies said:

It's easy to get carried away with what could conceivably happen, and
what is likely. And more to the point, are you going to individually
insure each and every unlikely risk, and no doubt miss the unlikely
risk which does happen?

Depends, to a large extent, on the country. In Germany it is unusual
for anyone not to have third party liability insurance for themselves.
In the UK, you get it with most household insurance, but most people
don't think about it and a claim is pretty unusual, and anyone without
household insurance won't have it anyway.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Williams
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In the UK, you get it with most household insurance, but most people
don't think about it and a claim is pretty unusual, and anyone without
household insurance won't have it anyway.

Unless they do, of course ...

Brian G said:

I had a thought this morning as I was re-assembling a rear wheel I had
been servicing. I'm not a trained nor qualified mechanic, in that I've
never worked in the bike trade (or any trade) and I don't have any HNCs
or NVQs or whatever in the mechanic line. On the other hand I've been
maintaining and servicing my bicycles for many years; I rarely put a
part on a bike without either reading the instructions or examiing it
carefully to see how it works; and I keep reasonably up to date by
reading and by watching this NG and other sources.

Now what happens if that rear wheel seizes up, or comes out of the
dropouts, or whatever, and I crash into someone and perhaps cause
injury. I'm covered by CTC 3rd party insurance, but am I putting myself
at risk of some dire outcome by not using a so-called "competent person"
to maintain my bikes?

I imagine in some people's minds, you'd be guilty
of assault with malice aforethought.

BugBear (sigh)