The Trudgen Stroke

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The American Red Cross "Swimming and Diving" copyright 1938

"John Trudgen went to Buenos Ayres in 1863. While there he learned "to
trudge" from the natives."

"Briefly, it is a combination of the hand-over-hand method of
employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of the
legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs.
Theoretically, this unbalanced thrust should result in uneven
propulsion,but in actual practice,if the momentum is properly employed
in a substantial glide, progress is almost continuous. The breath is
taken, as usual, during the highest point of the stroke, which, in
this case, is during the pull of the single arm. The exhalation takes
place during the combined stroke of the other arm and of the legs."

Yes, folks, that is how they wrote in 1938. The arms while underwater
are straight. (pictures were included in the book) The legs were done
in the side stroke fashion. The head and shoulders were out of the
water during the stroke. So, maybe the two older folks I saw swimming
similar to this were doing the Trudgeon. Now, I just have to get up
the nerve to ask them....

Pat in TX

We still teach sidestroke, including that kick, in the YMCA swimming
program and the YMCA lifeguard class.

-S-

Steve Freides said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Pat said:

The American Red Cross "Swimming and Diving" copyright 1938

"John Trudgen went to Buenos Ayres in 1863. While there he learned "to
trudge" from the natives."

"Briefly, it is a combination of the hand-over-hand method of employing the
arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of the legs which by
adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from the overarm side
stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the other, the arm pull is
combined with a scissors of the legs.

I don't think the scissors kick came from the natives. They were already
using a flutter kick, but the scissor kick was the civilized thing in
england, so they changed to the "Trudgen" stroke but kept the scissor
kick. Kind of like riding side-saddle.

Steve Curtis said:

Steve Freides said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Only for trolls.

I said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Steve Curtis replied:

Quoted message said:

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

I further reply:

I imagine some lifeguard teacher has done it in their class but I highly
doubt a sanctioned competition. Sidestroke, along with the heads-up
versions of front crawl and breastroke, are all taught as rescue strokes
only to the best of my knowledge. Sidestroke is taught because it
mimics, to some extent and for some circumstances, the type of thing
you'd have to do while moving a victim to safety, e.g., the kick can be
useful in a deep water spinal injury rescue.

The YMCA lifeguard course entrance test includes a 500 yard swim as
follows:

200 free

100 breast - both to test general swimming fitness

100 side stroke using only the front hand

100 elementary backstroke kick only - both these for rescue purposes

There's other stuff you have to be able to do as well, e.g., tread two
minutes without using your hands.

Not that you asked, but I thought I'd put sidestroke into a larger
context for anyone interested. We also teach it at the Shark level in
the kids swimming program.

-S-

mwsmith said:

Steve Curtis wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We still teach sidestroke, including
that kick, in the YMCA swimming
program and the YMCA lifeguard
class.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has there ever been a sanctioned
competitive sidestroke event?

Quoted message said:

Only for trolls.

Pot, kettle, black.

Quoted message said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Page 123 of the book: "The overarm side stroke came into general use in
England at about the same time that interest in competitive swimming
quickened. The search for speedier strokes may or may not have been a
factor in its evolution, but certain this style of swimming was used by most
of the swimming champions over a period of years which extended almost to
the turn of the century (turn from 1800s to 1900s)."

"In the earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by Nuttall,
Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years.
With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Only for trolls.

Answer is Yes, there has been.

Steve Freides said:

The YMCA lifeguard course entrance test includes a 500 yard swim as
follows:

Quoted message said:

100 side stroke using only the front hand

My granddaughter swims a pretty good IM but she said this felt really
strange when she took her life guard test. :-)

--
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX
http://davidclary.com

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Page 123 of the book: "The overarm side stroke came into general use in
England at about the same time that interest in competitive swimming
quickened. The search for speedier strokes may or may not have been a
factor in its evolution, but certain this style of swimming was used by most
of the swimming champions over a period of years which extended almost to
the turn of the century (turn from 1800s to 1900s)."

"In the earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by Nuttall,
Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years.
With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

I think that was before sanctioning became an issue. FINA didn't appear
until about 1908.

mwsmith said:

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

We still teach sidestroke, including that
kick, in the YMCA swimming program
and the YMCA lifeguard class.

Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Page 123 of the book: "The overarm side stroke came into general use in
England at about the same time that interest in competitive swimming
quickened. The search for speedier strokes may or may not have been a
factor in its evolution, but certain this style of swimming was used by most
of the swimming champions over a period of years which extended almost to
the turn of the century (turn from 1800s to 1900s)."

"In the earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by Nuttall,
Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years.
With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

I think that was before sanctioning became an issue. FINA didn't appear
until about 1908.

No.

Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association of
Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.

_ said:

mwsmith said:

Pat said:

> We still teach sidestroke, including that
> kick, in the YMCA swimming program
> and the YMCA lifeguard class.
Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

Page 123 of the book: "The overarm side stroke came into general use in
England at about the same time that interest in competitive swimming
quickened. The search for speedier strokes may or may not have been a
factor in its evolution, but certain this style of swimming was used by most
of the swimming champions over a period of years which extended almost to
the turn of the century (turn from 1800s to 1900s)."

"In the earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by Nuttall,
Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years.
With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

I think that was before sanctioning became an issue. FINA didn't appear
until about 1908.

No.

Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association of
Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.

No.

FINA didn't exist until 1908.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association
of
Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.

No.

FINA didn't exist until 1908.

IIRC, the question was if competitive swimmers ever used the side stroke,
not "did competitive swimmers use the side stroke in the USA" (or in any
specific country). So, the answer is still "yes", it was used in
competition.

Pat in TX

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association
of
Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.

No.

FINA didn't exist until 1908.

IIRC, the question was if competitive swimmers ever used the side stroke,
not "did competitive swimmers use the side stroke in the USA" (or in any
specific country). So, the answer is still "yes", it was used in
competition.

Pat in TX

Yes, but your quote was about the Trudgen stroke, the overarm
sidestroke, which is not sidestroke.

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association
of
Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.

No.

FINA didn't exist until 1908.

IIRC, the question was if competitive swimmers ever used the side stroke,
not "did competitive swimmers use the side stroke in the USA" (or in any
specific country). So, the answer is still "yes", it was used in
competition.

Pat in TX

Of course it was. The first strokes used in modern competitve swimming
were breastsroke and sidestroke. As an organised sport swimming began
around 1840. The first 5 Olympics pre-date the establishment of FINA, and
swimming races were conducted and competitions were sanctioned for decades
well before that - even in the USofA, which got its first set of rules from
the SAGB in the 1880's.

The ASA publication "Swimming" from 1915 has several chapters on the then
extant state and the development of the racing strokes; of which the
following quote:

"One can easily trace the relationship between the successive varieties,
for only slight changes took place in passing from the breast to the side,
then in turn to the single-over-arm, double-over-arm, trudgeon[1], early
crawl, and finally the latter's present namesake."

quite clearly shows that these strokes had been used during races conducted
under the sanction of ASA and its progenitors (the SAGB and MSA).

[1] The spelling of trudgeon as shown is that used by the author (L. de B.
Handley) and many other notable swimmers and authorities on swimming of the
time, such as Hodgson, Martin, Unwin, Waterman, etcetera.

Quoted message said:

Yes, but your quote was about the Trudgen stroke, the overarm sidestroke,
which is not sidestroke.

Let me see what the book says about the overarm sidestroke....

page 117
"Evidence of the origin and subsequent development of this style of
swimming leaves little room for doubt that it was a direct outgrowth of
breast stroke swimming."

"For historical proof of this Ralph Thomas must again be cited as authority.
In his book he states that prior to 1840 all evidence indicates that for
swimming on the side the breast stroke was employed. At approximately that
date the stroke of the arms was changed to the alternate relay pull and very
shortly therafter (1840-1844) the scissors of the legs was evolved and the
style of swimming called by him the English side stroke came into general
use."

Page 121
"overarm side stroke--There has been some confusion in recent years
concerning the name which properly applies to this style of swimming. It has
been termed variously; the single overhand, single overarm, English overarm,
English side stroke and overarm side stroke. It is most frequently referred
to as the English overarm stroke largely because of its origin. It is true
that it had its origins and greatest development in England but as there is
no other overarm side stroke it is referred to in England simply by that
name should be so termed."

"The overarm side stroke is a natural variation of the side stroke and,
doubtless, came into use at almost the same time. Thomas gives its date of
origin as 1855 but it must have been used experimentally years before then,
since the only change involved was to recover the upper arm over the
surface, instead of beneath it, to reduce resistance. It was first
described as a distinct style of swimming by Ralph Harrington in 1861. The
overarm side stroke came into general use in England at about the same time
that interest in competitive swimming quickened. The search for speedier
strokes may or may not have been a factor in its evolution, but certainly
this style of swimming was used by most of the swimming champions over a
period of years which extended almost to the turn of the century. In the
earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponenents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by
Nuttall, Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years."

"With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

Interesting, eh?

Pat in TX

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but your quote was about the Trudgen stroke, the overarm sidestroke,
which is not sidestroke.

Let me see what the book says about the overarm sidestroke....

page 117
"Evidence of the origin and subsequent development of this style of
swimming leaves little room for doubt that it was a direct outgrowth of
breast stroke swimming."

"For historical proof of this Ralph Thomas must again be cited as authority.
In his book he states that prior to 1840 all evidence indicates that for
swimming on the side the breast stroke was employed. At approximately that
date the stroke of the arms was changed to the alternate relay pull and very
shortly therafter (1840-1844) the scissors of the legs was evolved and the
style of swimming called by him the English side stroke came into general
use."

Page 121
"overarm side stroke--There has been some confusion in recent years
concerning the name which properly applies to this style of swimming. It has
been termed variously; the single overhand, single overarm, English overarm,
English side stroke and overarm side stroke. It is most frequently referred
to as the English overarm stroke largely because of its origin. It is true
that it had its origins and greatest development in England but as there is
no other overarm side stroke it is referred to in England simply by that
name should be so termed."

"The overarm side stroke is a natural variation of the side stroke and,
doubtless, came into use at almost the same time. Thomas gives its date of
origin as 1855 but it must have been used experimentally years before then,
since the only change involved was to recover the upper arm over the
surface, instead of beneath it, to reduce resistance. It was first
described as a distinct style of swimming by Ralph Harrington in 1861. The
overarm side stroke came into general use in England at about the same time
that interest in competitive swimming quickened. The search for speedier
strokes may or may not have been a factor in its evolution, but certainly
this style of swimming was used by most of the swimming champions over a
period of years which extended almost to the turn of the century. In the
earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponenents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by
Nuttall, Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years."

"With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

Interesting, eh?

Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious
person to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that
Trudgen got it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually
swimming crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was
he thinking?

Quoted message said:

Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious person
to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that Trudgen got
it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually swimming
crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was he thinking?

You are looking back at the development of the strokes with today's
knowledge and that's not fair to people in 1856.... I find the sidestroke
useful in a few ways. For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings. For another, if I really need
to belch, sidestroke is great!

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't using
the flutter kick, according to the book.

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was used in
competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those days the
competition was simply who got to the end point first and whatever stroke
was used didn't matter.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious person
to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that Trudgen got
it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually swimming
crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was he thinking?

You are looking back at the development of the strokes with today's
knowledge and that's not fair to people in 1856.... I find the sidestroke
useful in a few ways. For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings. For another, if I really need
to belch, sidestroke is great!

Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

Quoted message said:

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't using
the flutter kick, according to the book.

The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case,
they weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Quoted message said:

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was used in
competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those days the
competition was simply who got to the end point first and whatever stroke
was used didn't matter.

You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke. You
could swim trudgeon if you wanted to. Some people do it in masters events.