"making cycling irresistable"

Zebee Johnstone said:

new paper published in Transport Reviews http://www.tsu.ox.ac.uk/trj/
about how cycling was made common in the Netherlands.

http://www.recumbentblog.com/images/pucher-paper.pdf

From the abstract:

The key to achieving high levels of cycling appears to be
the provision of separate cycling facilities along heavily
traveled roads and at intersections, combined with traffic
calming of most residential neighborhoods. Extensive
cycling rights of way in the Netherlands, Denmark,
and Germany are complemented by ample bike parking,
full integration with public transport, comprehensive
traffic education and training of both cyclists and
motorists, and a wide range of promotional events
intended to generate enthusiasm and wide public support
for cycling. In addition to their many pro-bike policies
and programs, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany make
driving expensive as well as inconvenient in central
cities through a host of taxes and restrictions on car
ownership, use, and parking. Moreover, strict land use
policies foster compact, mixed-use developments that
generate shorter and thus more bikeable trips. It is
the coordinated implementation of this multi-faceted,
mutually reinforcing set of policies that best explains
the success of these three countries in promoting cycling.

The "at intersections" is very important, why the hell don't the
powers that be here read that bit then?

As is the comprehensive traffic education, policies to make driving more
inconvenient, and compact land-use policies. We need some work done on these
as well. Just putting in bike lanes won't bring the bikes out. I see plenty
of empty bike lanes in my neck of the woods.
--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:20:30 GMT

PeteSig said:

As is the comprehensive traffic education, policies to make driving more
inconvenient, and compact land-use policies. We need some work done on these
as well. Just putting in bike lanes won't bring the bikes out. I see plenty
of empty bike lanes in my neck of the woods.

Absolutely, it's a multi tentacled problem, it needs several sharp
axes.

The making cars more inconvenient to use is a biggie. Maybe along
with BUGS and other advocates having "no lycra" days when people cycle
in normal clothing. Making cycling something you don't need special
kit for.

I see kids cycling to work in normal clothes all the time, and did
when I was a kid, thought nothing of it. I wear shorts on the bent
but in the winter I wear longs rather than jeans for the trip to the
shops as they are more comfortable on the bike.

However it does paint cycling as inconvenient.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:20:30 GMT

PeteSig said:

As is the comprehensive traffic education, policies to make driving more
inconvenient, and compact land-use policies. We need some work done on these
as well. Just putting in bike lanes won't bring the bikes out. I see plenty
of empty bike lanes in my neck of the woods.

Absolutely, it's a multi tentacled problem, it needs several sharp
axes.

The making cars more inconvenient to use is a biggie. Maybe along
with BUGS and other advocates having "no lycra" days when people cycle
in normal clothing. Making cycling something you don't need special
kit for.

I see kids cycling to work in normal clothes all the time, and did
when I was a kid, thought nothing of it. I wear shorts on the bent
but in the winter I wear longs rather than jeans for the trip to the
shops as they are more comfortable on the bike.

However it does paint cycling as inconvenient.

Zebee

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:34:42 -0800

Donga said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

While you have to get dressed in silly clothes to go to the shops,
then why bother?

Zebee

Donga said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

I'd look silly (well sillier than normal) in lycra 🙂 [1]

I find mountain bike shorts are a good compromise YMMV.

G-S

[1] Gee... look at the overweight yellow colored lycra guy on the hybrid [2]

[2] Normal looking MTB shorts are a tad less 'obvious'. [3]

[3] But hey... if people are slim and fit enough for lycra to look good
go for it. [4]

[4] It's sort of like bikinis and speedos... only fit people should be
seen in them IMHO.

On 2007-11-10, PeteSig (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

new paper published in Transport Reviews http://www.tsu.ox.ac.uk/trj/
about how cycling was made common in the Netherlands.

http://www.recumbentblog.com/images/pucher-paper.pdf

From the abstract:

The key to achieving high levels of cycling appears to be
the provision of separate cycling facilities along heavily
traveled roads and at intersections, combined with traffic
calming of most residential neighborhoods. Extensive
cycling rights of way in the Netherlands, Denmark,
and Germany are complemented by ample bike parking,
full integration with public transport, comprehensive
traffic education and training of both cyclists and
motorists, and a wide range of promotional events
intended to generate enthusiasm and wide public support
for cycling. In addition to their many pro-bike policies
and programs, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany make
driving expensive as well as inconvenient in central
cities through a host of taxes and restrictions on car
ownership, use, and parking. Moreover, strict land use
policies foster compact, mixed-use developments that
generate shorter and thus more bikeable trips. It is
the coordinated implementation of this multi-faceted,
mutually reinforcing set of policies that best explains
the success of these three countries in promoting cycling.

The "at intersections" is very important, why the hell don't the
powers that be here read that bit then?

As is the comprehensive traffic education, policies to make driving more
inconvenient, and compact land-use policies.

I don't understand why it is legal and encouraged to park on the road
outside your house.

If you were actually forced to provision for your car on your own land
at your own expense, we'd see less people owning less cars because
they can't afford to put aside the garage space. In dense areas, we'd
not see cars at all, because there is no space.

Roads could be smaller, increasing the density again. Council
expenses would be much reduced. It'd be more bike and pedestrian
friendly.

And then out of residential areas, shops expect council to provide
their carparking spots. As it is, shops complain bitterly if you
remove the 2 carparking spots outside their shop, because obviously 2
spots are really going to increase their clientelle. If shops want
people to be able to drive to their location, they should have to
provision for the carparking out of their own expenses.

--
TimC
Yesterday, after years of trying, I finally managed to take a photo of a
subway train that said "INSTRUCTION CAR" just so that someday I can caption
it "...but where's the DATA CDR?" when I'm ready to make a joke that's
nerdy even by the standards of jokes about LISP. -- James "Kibo" Perry

G-S said:

I'd look silly (well sillier than normal) in lycra 🙂 [1]

I find mountain bike shorts are a good compromise YMMV.

G-S

[1] Gee... look at the overweight yellow colored lycra guy on the hybrid [2]

In the group I ride with, it's only the young, thin riders in their
teens and twenties that are bashful about wearing lycra. Us older,
heavier types are over that body image thing.

--
John
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one
instruction. By induction, every program can be reduced to one
instruction which doesn't work.

John Pitts said:

In the group I ride with, it's only the young, thin riders in their
teens and twenties that are bashful about wearing lycra. Us older,
heavier types are over that body image thing.

Your riding group has twenty year olds in it? And even teenagers? WOW!!

In my club the new members have never been much more than five years younger
than me, for the last 15 years! Don't know what things the youngsters are up
to, but joining bike clubs sure ain't one of them.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

On 2007-11-11, PeteSig (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

John Pitts said:

In the group I ride with, it's only the young, thin riders in their
teens and twenties that are bashful about wearing lycra. Us older,
heavier types are over that body image thing.

Your riding group has twenty year olds in it? And even teenagers? WOW!!

In my club the new members have never been much more than five years younger
than me, for the last 15 years! Don't know what things the youngsters are up
to, but joining bike clubs sure ain't one of them.

Oi!

I was a member for a year! And there was once a cute girl or two that
I tried to encourage to come along.

--
TimC
Usage: fortune -P [-f] -a [xsz] Q: file [rKe9] -v6[+] file1 ...

Zebee Johnstone said:

Donga wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

Quoted message said:

While you have to get dressed in silly clothes to go to the shops,
then why bother?

And not being able to walk without taking your shoes off.

Theo

Zebee Johnstone said:

The making cars more inconvenient to use is a biggie. Maybe along
with BUGS and other advocates having "no lycra" days when people cycle
in normal clothing. Making cycling something you don't need special
kit for.

Every day is "no lycra" day for me. I did buy a pair of shorts from
Torpedo7 just because they were on special for $20 and I wanted to see
what all the fuss was about, but apart from trying them on and
thinking "Erk, uncomfortable, too restrictive" I'm yet to use them.

Cycling is physical exercise, no way around that. Most people think
their life is over if they have to walk more than 1/2 a block to their
car, so convincing them to expend more energy than it takes to pick up
their car keys just to get to work is always going to be about as
popular as a pork chop in Jerusalem.

Theo Bekkers said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

Donga said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

While you have to get dressed in silly clothes to go to the shops,
then why bother?

And not being able to walk without taking your shoes off.

Theo

Imelda taught me to have different shoes for different situations.
Enter the MTB model for when you need to walk. Enter standardised
Crank Bros pedals on all bikes in the quiver.

Donga said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

My experience yesterday suggests otherwise.

My wife went to a school reunion the other day and there was afternoon tea afterwards, which I was invited to. Being a one car family that meant a 12km ride.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm not particularly comfortable sitting around in Lycra for four or five hours so I rode down in my normal clothes, no drama's whatsoever. On arriving I put the bike on the roof rack, locked it up, chucked my helmet and gloves in to the boot and no one was any the wiser that I'd gotten there by bike until much later in the day and then there was astonishment that I rode in normal clothes.

On Nov 12, 2:54 pm, EuanB <EuanB.2zx...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

My experience yesterday suggests otherwise.
... there was astonishment that I rode in normal
clothes.

I commute 6.5km each way to work in normal clothes. Steel-cap shoes,
trousers, business shirt (office job, factory site). My bike-specific
garments are limited to helmet, gloves and trouser clips.

I used to wear knicks and SPD shoes, but getting changed at the start
and end of each day was an annoyance. So I put some flat pedals on my
commuter hack bike and

I said:

So I put some flat pedals on my commuter hack bike and

....hit the send button accidentally :-D

It's usually cool enough in the morning and it's a nett downhill run
to work so I don't smell too bad during the day. In summer I sometimes
keep a fresh polo shirt in my pannier just in case I need it. With the
afternoon heat and uphill route, sometimes I'm a bit stinky by the
time I get home, which isn't an issue.

Cycling as transport just needs a cheap appropriate bike, and the
right attitude. Nothing more. A nicer bike might be slightly faster,
lycra might be a bit more comfortable (if you can be bothered
changing), but neither are necessary.

By kitting ourselves out in so much specialist gear and riding such
nice bikes, sometimes we do the cause more harm than good.

tim

tim said:

I used to wear knicks and SPD shoes, but getting changed at the start
and end of each day was an annoyance. So I put some flat pedals on my
commuter hack bike and

Carn Tim, tell what happened next!

On Nov 12, 1:54 pm, EuanB <EuanB.2zx...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Donga Wrote:> That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more

Quoted message said:

comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

My experience yesterday suggests otherwise.

My wife went to a school reunion the other day and there was afternoon
tea afterwards, which I was invited to. Being a one car family that
meant a 12km ride.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm not particularly comfortable
sitting around in Lycra for four or five hours so I rode down in my
normal clothes, no drama's whatsoever. On arriving I put the bike on the
roof rack, locked it up, chucked my helmet and gloves in to the boot and
no one was any the wiser that I'd gotten there by bike until much later
in the day and then there was astonishment that I rode in normal
clothes.

--
EuanB

As a student in Adelaide, I rode every day to school and uni in plain
clothes. It didn't matter if I was a bit smelly, but given the oft-
cool weather that wasn't such a problem - now I'm in Brisbane and the
sweat builds a bit faster. Also it didn't matter if I wore a hole in
the crotch of my King Gee shorts, but that doesn't look too good in my
grown-up, office duds. So lycra it is.

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:34:42 -0800

Donga said:

That would be the day for pretending that "normal" clothes are more
comfortable and practical than lycra? Forgeddit. Cycling does involve
changing ones habits, let's not pretend. People will make their
choices on bigger things than whether I wear lycra.

While you have to get dressed in silly clothes to go to the shops,
then why bother?

You don't have to go to the shops or to ride to the local train station.

Commuting to work, however, usually involves much greater distances and you
would then have to sit in your work clothes for eight or more hours. It is
something that works in dense cold climate cities not Australian sprawl.

dewatf.

lemmiwinks said:

Every day is "no lycra" day for me. I did buy a pair of shorts from
Torpedo7 just because they were on special for $20 and I wanted to see
what all the fuss was about, but apart from trying them on and
thinking "Erk, uncomfortable, too restrictive" I'm yet to use them.

Lycra-is-not-restrictive!! Unless you've gone and got yourself some cool
lycra corsetry to ride in 🙂

Lycra stretches plenty, in all directions. That's why it is worn, to reduce
the drag effect of clothing on your legs. Cotton trousers are restrictive.

Quoted message said:

Cycling is physical exercise, no way around that. Most people think
their life is over if they have to walk more than 1/2 a block to their
car, so convincing them to expend more energy than it takes to pick up
their car keys just to get to work is always going to be about as
popular as a pork chop in Jerusalem.

Agreed!

Having said all that, I commute 10kms each way in the clothes I work in. I'm
a teacher so the dress rules are more relaxed. My only concession to cycling
gear is the Ground Effect Ranchsliders (long trousers) or some baggy casual
MTB shorts in hotter months. I change just my SPD shoes when I get to work.

Went to a cycling club reunion yesterday and was facinating to see the old
pictures, with what we all wore in the late 70s/early 80s. Everyone did
touring rides in cotton t-shirts and cut-off jeans or stubbies. Winter
riding was a track suit or skivvy and jeans!! We all commuted quite happily
often in this sort of gear too.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)