How much to roll while backstroking?

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that some slight roll of the upper body in the backstroke would be beneficial to
lift the rising arm and shoulder out of the water while doing the backstroke. However, when I
watch the swim videos, I

don't

Quoted message said:

see the Olympic swimmers rolling at all.

i would say they must be rolling somewhat, swimming flat backstroke without dropping the shoulder in
the propulsive phase would be problematic in terms of how much power you could generate with the arm
effectively behind the body. a Drill i would suggest is to maintain the regular stroke, but watch
the hand through the propulsive phase - ie, turn your head and submerge your face and 'watch' it,
from one side to the other. wearing fins to strengthen the kick with cut down on the inevitable
fishtailing, but get the feeling for the roll ingrained in your mind. Secondly, and more
importantly, ensure you're harnessing your core...by that i mean as the hand rises past the hips
into the recovery, make sure your hips are snapping up with it.

(at this point, i'd start to argue that the S-shaped archaic hand path needs to be changed but first
things first)

Am I doing it wrong? I also just

Quoted message said:

look at the ceiling pretty much, but I see the competitive swimmers

looking

Quoted message said:

toward their toes with their chin on their chests.

my better backstrokers, (AAA times and various other cuts), i have coached to lift their heads
slightly, which has the benefit (imo) of dropping the feet a little more, in an effort to get more
from the kick. i know others will disagree with that on so many levels, but hey, just like kicking
with a board or breathing drills work for others, i've had success with this.

hope that helped a little.

Roll your shoulders and hips, keep your head still.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that some slight roll of the upper body in the backstroke would be beneficial to
lift the rising arm and shoulder out of the water while doing the backstroke. However, when I
watch the swim videos, I

don't

Quoted message said:

see the Olympic swimmers rolling at all. Am I doing it wrong? I also

just

Quoted message said:

look at the ceiling pretty much, but I see the competitive swimmers

looking

Quoted message said:

toward their toes with their chin on their chests.

Can somebody tell me the proper way to do the back crawl?

Pat in TX

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that some slight roll of the upper body in the backstroke would be beneficial to
lift the rising arm and shoulder out of the water while doing the backstroke. However, when I
watch the swim videos, I

don't

Quoted message said:

see the Olympic swimmers rolling at all. Am I doing it wrong? I also

just

Quoted message said:

look at the ceiling pretty much, but I see the competitive swimmers

looking

Quoted message said:

toward their toes with their chin on their chests.

Can somebody tell me the proper way to do the back crawl?

Start by forgetting the idea that there is one proper way to do any stroke.

One way that many elites use works like this. As the hand enter for the catch, the shoulder on that
side rotates downward, twisting at the trunk. This allows a deep catch and effective leverage for
the first part of the pull. As the first half of the pull proceeds, the shoulders forcefully return
to the flat position. This augments the power of the pull. In the back half of the pull (which is
more of a push), the hips get into the act by rotating away to the other side.

The main point is that the hip and shoulder rotations are not coordinated,
i.e., the body does not roll as a single unit. It appears to me that the shoulder rotation is the
primary augmentor of force application in the stroke.

Don

Pat left this mess on Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:56:20 -0600 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that some slight roll of the upper body in the backstroke would be beneficial to
lift the rising arm and shoulder out of the water while doing the backstroke. However, when I watch
the swim videos, I don't see the Olympic swimmers rolling at all. Am I doing it wrong? I also just
look at the ceiling pretty much, but I see the competitive swimmers looking toward their toes with
their chin on their chests.

Can somebody tell me the proper way to do the back crawl?

Ideally, you want to roll just enough to lift some of your back off the water.

Think of it in these terms: do barges run faster than schoners? Look at the bottoms, and then decide
which form you'd rather take.

Likely, you want about a 30-40 degree roll.

Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qxrzb.212296$Dw6.770818@attbi_s02...

In the back half of the pull (which is more of a push),

Quoted message said:

the hips get into the act by rotating away to the other side.

Just to clarify do you mean that as the hand is moving back and down, the hip is moving up?

Donald Graft said:

Regarding S pulls, I don't like the terminology, because it doesn't define when the various sweeps
begin and end. If you make the wrong implementation of an S, you can think you are doing the right
thing but actually be way off. I prefer to think in terms of combined sweeps, with specific
instruction about when each begins and ends.

The trouble with the S pull is from which perspective you are viewing it, from the position of the
swimmer or an outside observer. Completely different, also depending on the degree of shoulder roll.
--
BD add 1 to from address to reply [13435]

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qxrzb.212296$Dw6.770818@attbi_s02...

In the back half of the pull (which is more of a push),

Quoted message said:

the hips get into the act by rotating away to the other side.

Just to clarify do you mean that as the hand is moving back and down, the hip is moving up?

Yes. During the back half of the pull.

Don

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qQszb.294977$275.1015736@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just to clarify do you mean that as the hand is moving back and down,

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hip is moving up?

Yes. During the back half of the pull.

why oh why would you not want to combine the upward motion of the hips with the emergence of the
hand into recovery? hand speed into the recovery is essential in establishing tempo. the two should
be paired togethe rin order to maximise potential, a al the "hip snap" in freestyle, the same is
true of backstroke. Arguably, the propulsive phase should be altered away from the classic "S"
shape, and into something more resembling the Nike symbol. thoughts?

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qQszb.294977$275.1015736@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just to clarify do you mean that as the hand is moving back and down,

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hip is moving up?

Yes. During the back half of the pull.

why oh why would you not want to combine the upward motion of the hips with the emergence of the
hand into recovery? hand speed into the recovery is essential in establishing tempo. the two
should be paired togethe rin order to maximise potential, a al the "hip snap" in freestyle, the
same is true of backstroke. Arguably, the propulsive phase should be altered away from the classic
"S" shape, and into something more resembling the Nike symbol. thoughts?

I trust observation of what elite swimmers actually do more than speculative analysis. However, if
forced to speculate, I would say that the high point of the hip on one side corresponds to the low
point on the other side, and that the low point would correspond to the catch on that side. To have
the hips in place at that time requires them to start moving earlier than the end of the pull. I
believe that the net force that can be obtained from the trunk twist is determined by the amount of
twist, and that consists of the sum of the downward shoulders and upwards hip. But that is all
speculation.

Regarding S pulls, I don't like the terminology, because it doesn't define when the various sweeps
begin and end. If you make the wrong implementation of an S, you can think you are doing the right
thing but actually be way off. I prefer to think in terms of combined sweeps, with specific
instruction about when each begins and ends.

Don