Re: Strobe lights ?

_ said:

Ben C said:

nmp said:

For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
for the duration of each blink's off-phase.

There's not at all illegal in the UK.

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
would give more light!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Danny Colyer said:

_ said:

Ben C said:

On 2007-10-27, nmp <[email hidden]> wrote:
>For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
>blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
>understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think the
>police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
for the duration of each blink's off-phase.

There's not at all illegal in the UK.

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.

Yes, I think about 11Hz is very bad for that.

I don't set my front LED light to flashing because it gives _me_ a
headache.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On 2007-10-27, nmp <[email hidden]> wrote:
> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to
> have blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these
> countries are understood to be indicators or
> signaling/emergency lights. I think the police here
> (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon stroboscopic lights.

Don't know if they're illegal here (in NL), but I do see a fair few
cycles with them and they are on sale via the usual places. The police
also check on cycle lights during the winter months.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record sprint mongrel
Huissoon project bike (in bits, natch)

Danny Colyer said:

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

I use my main rear light as a flashing light during the day (about 1.5
flashes per second, using six 1 watt Luxeon red LEDs, the purpose being
daylight conspicuity - after I was hit from the rear by a driver who
claimed not to have seen me at mid day on a straight road). I've looked
at lights on other vehicles quite carefully after that incident, and I
noticed that the powerful LED rear lights on motorcycles really give the
motorbike conspicuity during daylight hours if the motorcyclist has just
dabbed the brake. I did consider building the light with a strobe tube,
but after looking at the different kinds of lights on motorcycles, I
decided powerful LEDs would be fine, and it meant I didn't have 6kV
under the saddle.

The visibility of bright LEDs coming on is especially so if you're in the
sunshine and the motorcyclist is under the trees - it really improves
the contrast of the motorcycle and makes it stand out. High-vis jackets
don't show up very well in the situation of the car driver in the
sunshine and the bike under the trees, it all blends into the shadows.
But a bright flasing light does stand out, and what's more, testing my
own light on myself, it catches the peripheral vision from at least 50
feet away which is good if the car driver is fiddling with the radio and
not watching the road.

However, at night, the primary light is set to steady mode. Bright
flashing lights, I have found, make it more difficult to correctly judge
distance to the bike at night. My secondary light is a much less bright
ankle band (where the light is incorporated into a retroreflective band
- once the headlight's on it, the retroreflective will look much
brighter than the LED anyway, and the reciprocating motion will identify
me as being on a bike much more readily than just having a steady rear
light).

During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
conspicuous. At night, steady only.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

Danny Colyer said:

_ said:

Ben C said:

On 2007-10-27, nmp <[email hidden]> wrote:
> For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to have
> blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these countries are
> understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency lights. I think
> the police here (Netherlands) would certainly frown upon
> stroboscopic lights.

Are you sure that's the reason they're illegal? I thought (based on
rumour and conjecture) they were illegal in GB because of the absurd
consideration that you are technically riding with no rear light at all
for the duration of each blink's off-phase.

There's not at all illegal in the UK.

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

The flashing rate is limited to 4 flashes per second, presumably to
prevent any possibility of a flashing light triggering an epileptic fit.

Must admit I'm a fan of flashing lights even as a sole source. They are
so much more noticable, "solid" lights blend in too much!

mb said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On 2007-10-27, nmp <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > For this reason it is illegal in many (European) countries to
> > have blinking lights on a bicycle. Blinking lights in these
> > countries are understood to be indicators or signaling/emergency
> > lights. I think the police here (Netherlands) would certainly
> > frown upon stroboscopic lights.
>
>

Don't know if they're illegal here (in NL),

Voertuigreglement, Artikel 5.9.64

Quoted message said:

but I do see a fair few cycles with them and they are on sale via the
usual places. The police also check on cycle lights during the winter
months.

Paul Boyd said:

Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted
to urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even
as a primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for
flashing rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor
for any flashing light to be legal without having a steady light
alongside it).

I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
would give more light!

A flashing lit used as a primary must have an intensity of at least four
candelas. They must also have a steady on-off pattern, no Morse code or
knight rider effects.

I always use a flashing lit in conjunction with a steady lit.

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:50:45 +0000, Paul Boyd

usenet.is.worse@plusnet said:

Danny Colyer said the following on 28/10/2007 23:32:

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen Ben C's or nmp's posts. Perhaps they weren't x-posted to
urc. But no, flashing lights are no longer illegal in the UK, even as a
primary light:
<http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20052559.htm>

(FWIW I don't approve of this change in the law. I'm happy for flashing
rear lights to be legal, but not flashing front lights nor for any
flashing light to be legal without having a steady light alongside it).

I knew flashing lights were now legal, but I didn't realise that they
were allowed to be the only light - I thought they had to be used in
conjunction with "legal" lights. I'm not happy with that either,
especially as a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow. A candle in a jar
would give more light!

Dear Paul,

Fireflies in whisky bottles and candles in paper Chinese lanterns were
once acceptable in the colonies:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/d0606ce5d0738201/eec5bf40dc0cb52c?#eec5bf40dc0cb52c

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Paul Boyd said:

... a lot of the flashing front lights I see (usually attached
to POBSOs) are a vaguely flickering dim orange glow.

A lot of the ones I see these days, particularly at dusk (like this
evening's commute) are dazzlingly bright (not generally bright enough to
be a problem if they gave a steady light, but impossible to adjust to
when they keep flashing) and extremely unpleasant to ride towards.

I usually turn off my 20W Lumicycle (my most powerful front light) when
I meet someone coming the other way. I think it might be better not to
bother when I meet someone with one of these bright flashers - I need to
keep the path well lit in front of me when they're varying the light
levels so much.

Given that there's no street lighting for most of my commute, it must be
difficult for the riders to see the path/road ahead properly when the
light they choose to cast ahead of them keeps disappearing.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

Dylan Smith said:

During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
conspicuous.

And /really/ unpleasant for anyone riding towards you.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
"The plural of anecdote is not data" - Frank Kotsonis

Danny Colyer said:

Dylan Smith said:

During dusk, I use the flash mode on my front light, since it's more
conspicuous.

And /really/ unpleasant for anyone riding towards you.

At least they've seen me.

But unpleasant? I see other cyclists with blinky lights at dusk, and
I've never found them unpleasant, or indeed any other emotion-response
other than well, they at least stand out at junctions instead of
merging into the incredibly bright background of the car with its
headlights immediately behind.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

Dylan Smith said the following on 30/10/2007 13:02:

Quoted message said:

But unpleasant? I see other cyclists with blinky lights at dusk, and
I've never found them unpleasant, or indeed any other emotion-response
other than well, they at least stand out at junctions instead of
merging into the incredibly bright background of the car with its
headlights immediately behind.

If you're on a nice street-lit road with lots of ambient light from car
headlights, then they're not really a problem. When you're on a pitch
black cycle path with absolutely no lighting, they're a pain in the
[censored]. As Danny said earlier, your eyes can't adjust to the constantly
changing light levels, and it can actually be quite hard to focus on it
and thereby work out exactly where the light is.

Also, I don't suffer from epilepsy, but I do get ophthalmic migraine
occasionally. One of the triggers under certain conditions is bright
flashes of light...

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

15:36 still me said:

So, I'm driving down a country road last night, and as I come around a
corner a wildly flashing white strobe light accosts me coming the
other way (fortunately on the opposite side of the road).
My first thought was WTF? Then I realized it was a bicycle headlight,
and my second thought was WTF!

I just bought the lightman xenon strobe, in comparison to the LED blinky i
have from SIGMA it sucks...
It has a white xenon strobe inside, with the clear cover it is very
powerful, but it loses most of its power when you put the red cover on it!
It is multidirectional but behind the strobe there is a miror that focuses
the light forward, wich doenst make it more wide angeled than the sigma LED.
The LED flashes rather fast and with almost no time between the flashes, you
can look in to it and it captures attention verry well.
The strobe flashes once per second, it catches less attention and your eyes
can't look in to it, though it is not at all brighter than a LED.
Good for emergency strobe, not at all good stuff on a bike!
With the clear lens positioned to the front of the bike your eyes will have
difficulties due to the extremes between the on and of moments.
Then there are the bike mountings, not sturdy and they don't seem to be
designed for the strobe, one screw that only just gets in the whole of the
lightman and can not fix it as it should.

Yannik

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39175179&memberId=12500226

Yannik said:

With the clear lens positioned to the front of the bike your eyes will have
difficulties due to the extremes between the on and of moments.

Quoted message said:

Yannik

This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
maximum brightness specification, and should not be used on their own
in the dark. If the xenon strobe has a body mounting option, and is
still waterproof without the red cover, I would attach it to your back
for use as a supplementary beacon.

David Lloyd

Quoted message said:

David Lloyd

I use photon or nashbar blinkie (s) in amber, 1/2x1" front and side.
the NOTICE factor is so high, people comment on the lights as I ride
thru.
the fronts seperate the bike from a porch light.

David Lloyd said:

This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
maximum brightness specification,

This is perhaps true where you ride, but not everywhere. Can you post a
link to this specification please.

David Lloyd said:

This is why flashing lights for use on the front of the bike have a
maximum brightness specification, and should not be used on their own
in the dark. If the xenon strobe has a body mounting option, and is
still waterproof without the red cover, I would attach it to your back
for use as a supplementary beacon.

AIUI in the UK flashing lights for both the front and rear have a
minimum brightness of 4 candela. There is no maximum.